Dec 29 | College Football Playoff Semifinal | Clemson

[ACamp1900]

I agree too. When Americans abandoned education for sports, it gave rise to the college football factories that caters to the "winning at all cost" mentality by jeopardizing the integrity of academic standards than developing future innovators and creators of America.

I was mostly referring to the uniforms,..........

 

[Sea Turtle]

I agree too. When Americans abandoned education for sports, it gave rise to the college football factories that caters to the "winning at all cost" mentality by jeopardizing the integrity of academic standards than developing future innovators and creators of America.

This is nothing new. The Big 12 had grown men walking on campus to play on game day back in the 1940's and 1950's. George Gipp barely went to class. The Boilermakers of Purdue were factory workers during the week and football players on Saturday. Hence the name. Teams used to make their players have to fist fight to make the team and toughen them up.

It was the wild West for decades. Schools used to come to rival campuses to recruit their players over to them. There is NOTHING new about football factories. It used to be far worse. Clemson PED'S? Steroids have been rampant since the 1970's. Brian Bosworth, Tony Mandarich, etc. Oklahoma had guys shooting each other over rap tapes. And do I even have to go into all of the garbage that happened at Miami?

ND was able to compete admirably until the mid 1990's when Monk Malloy decided that he wanted to be ultra elite and cut off the legs of the football program purposely and never have a powerful coach(Holtz)again.

College football didn't change. ND changed. This wasn't a situation where things out of ND's control happened. ND CHOSE to do this to themselves. Again I ask, what was so wrong with ND football from 1986-1994? There is no reason to not be able to get those guys again that ND can't control. We really need to stop blaming everyone else. Society, culture, the media, college football, the NCAA and so on.

 

[Circa]

This is nothing new. The Big 12 had grown men walking on campus to play on game day back in the 1940's and 1950's. George Gipp barely went to class. The Boilermakers of Purdue were factory workers during the week and football players on Saturday. Hence the name. Teams used to make their players have to fist fight to make the team and toughen them up.

It was the wild West for decades. Schools used to come to rival campuses to recruit their players over to them. There is NOTHING new about football factories. It used to be far worse. Clemson PED'S? Steroids have been rampant since the 1970's. Brian Bosworth, Tony Mandarich, etc. Oklahoma had guys shooting each other over rap tapes. And do I even have to go into all of the garbage that happened at Miami?

ND was able to compete admirably until the mid 1990's when Monk Malloy decided that he wanted to be ultra elite and cut off the legs of the football program purposely and never have a powerful coach(Holtz)again.

College football didn't change. ND changed. This wasn't a situation where things out of ND's control happened. ND CHOSE to do this to themselves. Again I ask, what was so wrong with ND football from 1986-1994? There is no reason to not be able to get those guys again that ND can't control. We really need to stop blaming everyone else. Society, culture, the media, college football, the NCAA and so on.

I see many points to your post and If ya need to know, you shouldn't plagiarize.
Plagiarism Is the least of my worry tho. 'Plagiarize on my Irish friend.'
I knew when you said "College football didn't change" and then said, "ND CHOSE to do this to themselves." That you couldn't possibly be old enough to know the factual subject at hand.
Good Luck getting more years under your Turtle shell....


<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/Sbdfis90obUQw" width="480" height="275" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/photo-star-turtle-Sbdfis90obUQw">via GIPHY</a></p>

 

[Sea Turtle]

I see many points to your post and If ya need to know, you shouldn't plagiarize.
Plagiarism Is the least of my worry tho. 'Plagiarize on my Irish friend.'
I knew when you said "College football didn't change" and then said, "ND CHOSE to do this to themselves." That you couldn't possibly be old enough to know the factual subject at hand.
Good Luck getting more years under your Turtle shell....


<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/Sbdfis90obUQw" width="480" height="275" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/photo-star-turtle-Sbdfis90obUQw">via GIPHY</a></p>

Actually, I need to change one of my points. College football did change. It is much more regulated today than it was for the first 60 years or so of the 20th century.

 

[Circa]

Times are going to change, and rather quickly in my op-ed.
http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/25699371/notre-dame-ad-jack-swarbrick-says-fighting-irish-play-13th-game-allowed-ncaa

 

[Bishop2b5]

I agree with much of what you say and that we must preserve college football, my friend, though you must see as a regular respected contributor here, I imagine you perceive the difference in our viewpoints on some issues. You decry what college football would become. Surely, you see how college football has changed and become, also, with the commercial forces that have forged players and fans attitudes and expectations that may devalue the education that you espouse.

I agree that college football is a way out for the sons of poor families and have an opportunity that Notre Dame cannot provide all of them because of the challenges that they will face here. Many Midwest, including former Big Ten coaches like Saban, have gravitated towards the SEC both for the pay. recruiting advantages, and also to escape the academic hurdles recruits face there.

Historically, the Irish have admitted football recruits with less than ideal academic resumes. If we see a creeping capitalism that we choose to rebel against it because we try to maintain the goals that college football decades ago was founded on. If we are anachronistic, we're proud of it. If we are irrelevant to national championships, we accept that. If we are a diminishing minority in those goals, we acknowledge that. If college football moves away from its stated goals for students, we mourn it.

I don't disagree with you, my friend. I'm well aware that money has changed CFB and not always for the good, and too many programs have put money and success on the field ahead of academics. I'd like that to change as much as anyone else. I just don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Instead of destroying CFB as we know it, I'd rather see major changes from the NCAA that would force every program to make sure their players are making genuine academic progress towards a real, useful degree and graduating their players at a level similar to college students in general, if not higher. Lack of such progress and graduation success would result in reduced scholarships or bowl eligibility.

One issue I have is that of the 3000 or so HS players who sign with a D1 football program each year, most aren't capable of getting a 4.0 with a double major in physics and biochemistry. Only a handful of those kids are in the same league with a Manti T'eo, Greg McElroy, Tim Tebow, Myron Rolle or Barrett Jones. A few hundred more are capable of being outstanding students, and the rest are just average or guys who may struggle, especially at academically elite schools or in STEM programs.

Those players deserve an opportunity to get the best education they can if they're willing to work at it, but it's unrealistic to expect every one of those kids to be an academic All American at an elite school. Most of those kids don't have that sort of ability and many, if not most, didn't grow up in an environment that pushed them to be academically strong. There still needs to be a place for those average student athletes to use football to get the best education they're capable of getting and for the schools to do everything in their power to provide it.

I've long had an issue with some here who seem to believe that if you're not recruiting only future Academic All Americans and aren't an ND/Harvard/Duke/Princeton-level school, then you're just a football factory with no interest in educating your players and shouldn't field a football team. That's what I mean by "ND snobbery." I agree wholeheartedly that no program should make a joke of education and play kids who don't have to go to class or can barely read & write... and there are a few programs who do that. I do believe that the majority of players aren't capable of over the top academic success at an elite school, but are capable of getting a good, useful education and the schools that they play for need to do a much better job of providing that to them.

 

[ulukinatme]

Times are going to change, and rather quickly in my op-ed.
http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/25699371/notre-dame-ad-jack-swarbrick-says-fighting-irish-play-13th-game-allowed-ncaa

You're Heather Dinich? That explains so much!

 

[POTUS2017]

Times are going to change, and rather quickly in my op-ed.
http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/25699371/notre-dame-ad-jack-swarbrick-says-fighting-irish-play-13th-game-allowed-ncaa

Just join a conference already. There's really no reason not to anymore.

 

[nd_fan]

You're Heather Dinich? That explains so much!

LOL I thought the same thing too when I read his post and then saw the article.

 

[irishtrain]

If Notre Dame made the obvious move to allowing guys in to win a football game (which I hope doesn't happen) the media would make a comment every time Notre Dame won a game but other schools who have superior teams today don't get any such comment. To the point they even put sec graduate on their uniforms for these big games to get ahead of the negative response-pure and simple they are saying look we graduate guys too--of course you do that's why you go to college. Its simple public relations 101 because they know the charade they are putting on. This not going to change and Notre Dame is not going to change (you will see this in full affect when Georgia beats Notre dame next year by 3/4 touchdowns) and I live down here and believe me they will pour it on until the final whistle to prove a point. And they will do it with many many guys who could not get into Notre Dame. They are not cheating that I know of but they are allowed by their university to do it with a football first -get em in no matter what mentality. That's why these kids go to these schools in the first place-they go for football and an easy ride to eligibility. These are the facts-not some guy complaining about his team getting beat. These teams should win just like they do. The issue is there is not a level playing field. Blueblood programs across the country have no chance at a national championship because 6/7 schools have decided (allowed) to pretty much do as they please. To the point the next wave is coming Kentucky/Texas A&M/ucf/etc. Its become professional football. In my lifetime I thought I d never see the day when 2 undefeated Notre Dame football teams playing that schedule would not only get stomped but look like they were not even in the same realm of the opponent. That's where we are at-its not that Notre Dame has fallen as much as these other programs play by a different set of rules. What kid who thinks he's going pro wants to go somewhere that tests him with college life experience/academic pressure when he can go somewhere for an easy ride. The margin isn't even close.

 

[GATTACA!]

Times are going to change, and rather quickly in my op-ed.
http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/25699371/notre-dame-ad-jack-swarbrick-says-fighting-irish-play-13th-game-allowed-ncaa

As I've said every time this gets brought up, just play at Hawaii to open every season. Hawaii would love the exposure. Helps with West coast recruiting. And is a great selling point. Free trip to Hawaii once a year? Sold.

Just join a conference already. There's really no reason not to anymore.

Neg worthy

 

[Irish#1]

If Notre Dame made the obvious move to allowing guys in to win a football game (which I hope doesn't happen) the media would make a comment every time Notre Dame won a game but other schools who have superior teams today don't get any such comment. To the point they even put sec graduate on their uniforms for these big games to get ahead of the negative response-pure and simple they are saying look we graduate guys too--of course you do that's why you go to college. Its simple public relations 101 because they know the charade they are putting on. This not going to change and Notre Dame is not going to change (you will see this in full affect when Georgia beats Notre dame next year by 3/4 touchdowns) and I live down here and believe me they will pour it on until the final whistle to prove a point. And they will do it with many many guys who could not get into Notre Dame. They are not cheating that I know of but they are allowed by their university to do it with a football first -get em in no matter what mentality. That's why these kids go to these schools in the first place-they go for football and an easy ride to eligibility. These are the facts-not some guy complaining about his team getting beat. These teams should win just like they do. The issue is there is not a level playing field. Blueblood programs across the country have no chance at a national championship because 6/7 schools have decided (allowed) to pretty much do as they please. To the point the next wave is coming Kentucky/Texas A&M/ucf/etc. Its become professional football. In my lifetime I thought I d never see the day when 2 undefeated Notre Dame football teams playing that schedule would not only get stomped but look like they were not even in the same realm of the opponent. That's where we are at-its not that Notre Dame has fallen as much as these other programs play by a different set of rules. What kid who thinks he's going pro wants to go somewhere that tests him with college life experience/academic pressure when he can go somewhere for an easy ride. The margin isn't even close.

It's really only two schools. ND has shown they can compete against other SEC teams. Bama doesn't get to that level and stay there that long without something going on. Clemson doesn't make that leap from mediocre/decent to Bama level and stay there four 4-5 years without something going on and I think we found it with 3 out of 17 players getting suspended.

 

[NDohio]

Why??? It will be the end of college football as we've known it for the past several generations. Many of the top HS players will skip college to play semi-pro ball. College football will become little more than what college baseball is now. On top of that, a LOT of the players who skip college to play in the AAF and XFL will never make it to the NFL. At 25 they'll be finished as players with no chance of moving up to the big leagues, and they'll have no education. Just a bunch of poor kids taking the small, but immediate payday to chase their dream without having to play school and missing the chance to go to college. I think it would be disastrous for college football and most of those kids.

I actually think it will enhance college football. I don't believe that these leagues will suddenly be bringing in a hundred players that would have gone to college to play, I believe it will be a handful - twenty at the most. If you are going to take the top twenty players out of every recruiting class and send them to a semi-pro team then parity in college football will reign supreme.

Are you guys seriously willing to destroy CFB as we know it just to see a few programs you hate toppled? Sure, there are football factories that don't give a flip about educating players, but most do. There are thousands of kids out there who use football to get a degree that helps them in life. I wish some of you would get over the ND snob factor and realize that 95% of kids aren't going to a Harvard or ND. They're doing the best they can and are proud of the degree they get at State U. What you're hoping for will lure many of them away from even that.

It's not about seeing programs we hate toppled, it is about seeing student athletes be student athletes. I don't think anyone on here thinks that all college football players need to be Drue Tranquill, but today's student athlete does need to be exactly what that name describes. I am still stunned - a week and a half later - that Christian Wilkins has a MASTER'S degree in Athletic Leadership. Sorry, but that is absolutely ridiculous to even have that degree as an option and there is nothing to be proud of in getting that degree. Have him get his degree in Education and minor in Athletic Leadership so he can someday coach? Sure, I could buy that. A Master's Degree in Athletic Leadership...

 

[stlnd01]

It's really only two schools. ND has shown they can compete against other SEC teams. Bama doesn't get to that level and stay there that long without something going on. Clemson doesn't make that leap from mediocre/decent to Bama level and stay there four 4-5 years without something going on and I think we found it with 3 out of 17 players getting suspended.

I think the "something" is really good, consistent coaching, myself. If it were as easy as ostarine other schools would do the same.
But agree that we're really only talking about two programs that are actually so much better than us right now. Georgia and Ohio State could be, too, but haven't quite put it all together on the field just yet.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

As I've said every time this gets brought up, just play at Hawaii to open every season. Hawaii would love the exposure. Helps with West coast recruiting. And is a great selling point. Free trip to Hawaii once a year? Sold.



Neg worthy

You can only do it for the 13th game once every four years.

 

[NDohio]

Times are going to change, and rather quickly in my op-ed.
http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/25699371/notre-dame-ad-jack-swarbrick-says-fighting-irish-play-13th-game-allowed-ncaa

Man I love this quote from Jack:

"I do feel passionately that when you schedule a noncompetitive opponent you haven't necessarily played 13 games, and you shouldn't be treated as having played 13 games," he said. "The single most valuable thing in college football from a competitive standpoint is a bye week, and when you opt to play 'name your school,' you schedule a second bye week. It's an enormous advantage. I'm fine with that. Schools can schedule however they want to schedule, but don't be saying play 13 games to somebody else's 12."

 

[Irishize]

It's really only two schools. ND has shown they can compete against other SEC teams. Bama doesn't get to that level and stay there that long without something going on. Clemson doesn't make that leap from mediocre/decent to Bama level and stay there four 4-5 years without something going on and I think we found it with 3 out of 17 players getting suspended.

Exactly, ND has Citrus Bowl depth...not CFP depth which leaves no margin for error if/when they make the playoffs. That reared it’s ugly head when ND’s All-American starting CB went down for a quarter and is replacement was targeted for 3 TDs. Keep in mind Love hasn’t had to leave the field for meaningful snaps his entire career.

Does that mean Love playing the entire game would’ve led to an ND win? Absolutely not b/c the offense was anemic and not going to score enough to win. But the D would have kept it competitive despite Clemson still covering the spread.

ND has to improve its overall depth which is no small feat in today’s CFB.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Does that mean Love playing the entire game would’ve led to an ND win? Absolutely not b/c the offense was anemic and not going to score enough to win. But the D would have kept it competitive despite Clemson still covering the spread.

If Love had played the whole game and our recovered punt fumble had been upheld, the final scoreline would probably have been a 17-10 Clemson victory.

 

[Ndaccountant]

It's really only two schools. ND has shown they can compete against other SEC teams. Bama doesn't get to that level and stay there that long without something going on. Clemson doesn't make that leap from mediocre/decent to Bama level and stay there four 4-5 years without something going on and I think we found it with 3 out of 17 players getting suspended.

Sure, it could be that.

It could also be institutional investment towards football. Based on NCAA data, the latest year of expenses* (2016/2107 season) has the following:

Clemson $44M
Bama $62M
Ohio State $38M
ND $33M

I think this is where some of the largest gaps occur. Sure, Saban and Dabo are great coaches. But the resources the institution pumps into the programs are far greater than what other schools do. IMO, this is the crux of the problem. If people were serious about trying to create a level playing field, there should be a program spending cap (versus a salary cap in NFL).

https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/ Data can be found here.

* All expenses attributable to intercollegiate athletic activities. This includes appearance guarantees and options, athletically related student aid, contract services, equipment, fundraising activities, operating expenses, promotional activities, recruiting expenses, salaries and benefits, supplies, travel, and any other expenses attributable to intercollegiate athletic activities.

 

[Irish#1]

Sure, it could be that.

It could also be institutional investment towards football. Based on NCAA data, the latest year of expenses* (2016/2107 season) has the following:

Clemson $44M
Bama $62M
Ohio State $38M
ND $33M

I think this is where some of the largest gaps occur. Sure, Saban and Dabo are great coaches. But the resources the institution pumps into the programs are far greater than what other schools do. IMO, this is the crux of the problem. If people were serious about trying to create a level playing field, there should be a program spending cap (versus a salary cap in NFL).

https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/ Data can be found here.

* All expenses attributable to intercollegiate athletic activities. This includes appearance guarantees and options, athletically related student aid, contract services, equipment, fundraising activities, operating expenses, promotional activities, recruiting expenses, salaries and benefits, supplies, travel, and any other expenses attributable to intercollegiate athletic activities.

That's part of it, and you have the salesmanship to get recruits and good coaching, but you just proved my point. OSU stubbed their toe. You don't stand head and shoulders above everyone else year in and year out without some magic. Auburn and Texas spend as much as Clemson. Why hasn't Bama or Clemson stubbed their toe?

Auburn $42,825,220
A&M $31,078,112
Texas $43,306,703

 

[Ndaccountant]

That's part of it, and you have the salesmanship to get recruits and good coaching, but you just proved my point. OSU stubbed their toe. You don't stand head and shoulders above everyone else year in and year out without some magic. Auburn and Texas spend as much as Clemson. Why hasn't Bama or Clemson stubbed their toe?

Auburn $42,825,220
A&M $31,078,112
Texas $43,306,703

At the end of the day, the investment + the coaching makes the difference. Dabo (IMO via Brent Venables) and Saban are better at the moment than everyone else. The organizational structure at Bama is second to none. At Clemson, I really believe Venables is the best DC around and the defensive turnaround since 2012 has been the biggest part of their yearly success.

Meyer, for as good as what he is, didn't have control of the locker room at UF and it appears that was the case at OSU too. That keeps him a notch below those two IMO.

Jury is out for the moment on both Smart and Riley. But those two could be just as strong when push comes to shove.

To your point, A&M (with Fisher), Gus at Auburn and even Herman at UT aren't at that elite level yet.

 

[Legacy]

I don't disagree with you, my friend. I'm well aware that money has changed CFB and not always for the good, and too many programs have put money and success on the field ahead of academics. I'd like that to change as much as anyone else. I just don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Instead of destroying CFB as we know it, I'd rather see major changes from the NCAA that would force every program to make sure their players are making genuine academic progress towards a real, useful degree and graduating their players at a level similar to college students in general, if not higher. Lack of such progress and graduation success would result in reduced scholarships or bowl eligibility.

One issue I have is that of the 3000 or so HS players who sign with a D1 football program each year, most aren't capable of getting a 4.0 with a double major in physics and biochemistry. Only a handful of those kids are in the same league with a Manti T'eo, Greg McElroy, Tim Tebow, Myron Rolle or Barrett Jones. A few hundred more are capable of being outstanding students, and the rest are just average or guys who may struggle, especially at academically elite schools or in STEM programs.

Those players deserve an opportunity to get the best education they can if they're willing to work at it, but it's unrealistic to expect every one of those kids to be an academic All American at an elite school. Most of those kids don't have that sort of ability and many, if not most, didn't grow up in an environment that pushed them to be academically strong. There still needs to be a place for those average student athletes to use football to get the best education they're capable of getting and for the schools to do everything in their power to provide it.

I've long had an issue with some here who seem to believe that if you're not recruiting only future Academic All Americans and aren't an ND/Harvard/Duke/Princeton-level school, then you're just a football factory with no interest in educating your players and shouldn't field a football team. That's what I mean by "ND snobbery." I agree wholeheartedly that no program should make a joke of education and play kids who don't have to go to class or can barely read & write... and there are a few programs who do that. I do believe that the majority of players aren't capable of over the top academic success at an elite school, but are capable of getting a good, useful education and the schools that they play for need to do a much better job of providing that to them.

Reps. We can't have college football without both aspects. In general, we do come not to criticize those institutions that sacrifice the academics on the altar of football, but to praise those that don't. We need those opportunities that can be provided by institutions committed to the best interests of all students. So all have tutoring programs, but some have tutors that write the papers and deserve to be highlighted.

Considering the aspect only of football and with regards to academically-successful players, I would change transfer rules to let those players transfer to another univesity without having to sit out a year and without restrictions by coaches. Any other student can do the same.

 

[Luckylucci]

ISD’s Jamie Uyeyama with his Film Don’t Lie article. Includes videos. It’s premium content but pretty similar to his other breakdown. A lot of offense left on the field and early.

https://irishsportsdaily.com/s/8425/film-dont-lie-almost-doesnt-count

 

[SouthernIndianaNDFan]

Justyn Ross looked like Julio or AJ Green, that dude should be in the Pro Bowl this year. ND need, me want.

 

[ulukinatme]

I was pretty down after this game, but seeing the final score tonight (Didn't watch the game), I don't feel so bad. I still think Clemson needs their whole team tested. Imagine if they had to forfeit the 2019 season...Alabama and ND would both be undefeated.

 

[T-Boone]

Imagine if they had to forfeit the 2019 season.

that would be a pity.

 

[Irish#1]

On Clay Travis, one of the commentators said everyone who was screaming that ND didn't belong in the playoffs owes ND an apology. It doesn't change things but it does show that we are there knocking on the door.

Edit..........Dan Patrick also saying ND wasn't that bad.

 

[Legacy]

A couple of articles from RollBamaRoll:

Graphing Clemson vs. Notre Dame: Brian Kelly was right — it’s a lot closer than it seemed
The Irish lost, but they weren’t dominated.

Graphing the Tide vs. Clemson IV: Bama was more efficient, but with poor timing.
I guess third downs and red zones are important.

 

[Circa]

It’s not Kelly’s fault. He’s in a drag race with a Ford Focus. This feels like a fulcrum where the administration needs to make a decision about what we’re going to be.

This my friend. We just saw a 40-year guy go to the wayside. You had it before anyone else saw It...<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/3dhlVp3Z5ZQe8HVKaE" width="480" height="275" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/Interstellardesignz-perspective-wise-such-a-3dhlVp3Z5ZQe8HVKaE">via GIPHY</a></p>

 

[irishtrain]

That's part of it, and you have the salesmanship to get recruits and good coaching, but you just proved my point. OSU stubbed their toe. You don't stand head and shoulders above everyone else year in and year out without some magic. Auburn and Texas spend as much as Clemson. Why hasn't Bama or Clemson stubbed their toe?

Auburn $42,825,220
A&M $31,078,112
Texas $43,306,703

Because they have guys that are not taxed by anything other than football. They are great players at a place where they concentrate entirely on football and not the college life experience. Don't want that at Notre dame nor do I want to see an entire conference schedule with 3 dumb games per year. Stay independent and don't become Clemson/bama and anyone that says Notre Dame belongs in a conference because the don't play 13 games is an IDIOT-they play 12 super bowl games for the opposition per year-have a clue Notre dame hater.