Rumored Violations

[ACamp1900]

• I'm glad the narrative has shifted away from the "lack of institutional control" angle they were taking when this fist broke.

It's always ND from a negative angle though isn't it??

 

[wizards8507]

I didn't play a varsity sport and I still fell asleep at my desk more nights than not.

What did you study, if you don't mind me asking? Most people I knew who took the classes the athletes take did not fall asleep at their desks more nights than not. My engineer friends studied late into the night, but the players aren't taking Organic Chemistry IV.

Don't forget that football players do NOT take full course loads during the season. I think 9 to 12 credits is the norm versus 15 to 18 for a "normal" student. They make up for that with summer classes, early enrollment, and off-season semesters.

I worked 20+ hours a week and still had PLENTY of time to do all of my homework and play plenty of video games, drink plenty of beer, eat plenty of Steak and Shake, and watch plenty of YouTube.

 

[tussin]

What did you study, if you don't mind me asking? Most people I knew who took the classes the athletes take did not fall asleep at their desks more nights than not. My engineer friends studied late into the night, but the players aren't taking Organic Chemistry IV.

Don't forget that football players do NOT take full course loads during the season. I think 9 to 12 credits is the norm versus 15 to 18 for a "normal" student. They make up for that with summer classes, early enrollment, and off-season semesters.

I worked 20+ hours a week and still had PLENTY of time to do all of my homework and play plenty of video games, drink plenty of beer, eat plenty of Steak and Shake, and watch plenty of YouTube.

I've always been curious just how hard ND is (especially in light of the most recent "scandal"). I studied Finance at a school that is perceived to be fairly rigorous and felt it was easier than the prep school I attended during HS.

I suppose it comes down to what you study... I know some engineering majors at my school that were constantly swamped with work.

 

[JughedJones]

^^ That's interesting perspective.

Of course the classes aren't intro to basket-weaving, but I didn't know they didn't have the same course load expectations of 'normal' students. That makes sense.

 

[wizards8507]

Of course the classes aren't intro to basket-weaving, but I didn't know they didn't have the same course load expectations of 'normal' students. That makes sense.

I mean a "normal" student COULD take 9 credits every fall semester, but he'd have trouble graduating in four years without summer school.

 

[greyhammer90]

Watching the BYU game of this last year while I move into my apartment and am growing depressed watching KVR and Davaris.

 

[ResLife Hero]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>“<a href="https://twitter.com/WSJSports">@WSJSports</a>: Is Notre Dame football too demanding academically? <a href="http://t.co/Zo2NC9kGlX">http://t.co/Zo2NC9kGlX</a> <a href="http://t.co/CnOYqCVakO">pic.twitter.com/CnOYqCVakO</a>” no</p>— Trevor Robinson (@trobinson78) <a href="https://twitter.com/trobinson78/statuses/502901229404827648">August 22, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

And KLM retweeted it.

 

[BobbyMac]

What did you study, if you don't mind me asking? Most people I knew who took the classes the athletes take did not fall asleep at their desks more nights than not. My engineer friends studied late into the night, but the players aren't taking Organic Chemistry IV.

Don't forget that football players do NOT take full course loads during the season. I think 9 to 12 credits is the norm versus 15 to 18 for a "normal" student. They make up for that with summer classes, early enrollment, and off-season semesters.

I worked 20+ hours a week and still had PLENTY of time to do all of my homework and play plenty of video games, drink plenty of beer, eat plenty of Steak and Shake, and watch plenty of YouTube.

Unless it has changed recently... Per the NCAA, student athletes must be enrolled in and pass at least 12 hours with a 2.0 GPA each semester at the D1 level.

.

 

[CarrollVermin]

Saw our backup QB was awarded a scholarship. Did we have one to offer, or…

 

[IrishLax]

Saw our backup QB was awarded a scholarship. Did we have one to offer, or…

Yes, we had lots of spares.

 

[CarrollVermin]

Yes, we had lots of spares.

QB's or schollies...haha. Thanks Lax.

 

[ThePiombino]

Saw our backup QB was awarded a scholarship. Did we have one to offer, or…

One thing you can always count on at ND, scandal or no scandal, is extra schollies. God forbid we didn't have extra fucking schollies. Ugh

 

[Irish Insanity]

Saw our backup QB was awarded a scholarship. Did we have one to offer, or…

At least 4.

They just came open.

 

[clashmore_mike]

At least 4.

They just came open.

No, they didn't just come open.

 

[Irish To The Core]

You might be right - the process may be flawed - but the point is they aren't going to deviate from it in this situation just because football players are involved. And good for them. They shouldn't. As much as I'd like to see the process concluded (and hopefully the guys back on the field), the situation should be handled like it would be for any other student.

Actually, what I meant was that a process whereby students are consequenced for actions which are officially unsubstantiated pending a hearing to determine the validity of charges is flawed. To be more accurate, I question the decision to withdraw the four students from football related activities more than a week prior to any possible hearing. This represents a serious punishment potentially being handed out to an innocent party. I think that would be unacceptable regardless of whether we are talking about a football player or a regular student.

But I have one question. Do you think the administration would feel it necessary to publicly identify non-football playing students and restrict their participation in campus activities for 1 week plus, without holding a hearing? If anything I think these four may have been dealt with more harshly than the average student, at least in this isolated incident.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Actually, what I meant was that a process whereby students are consequenced for actions which are officially unsubstantiated pending a hearing to determine the validity of charges is flawed. To be more accurate, I question the decision to withdraw the four students from football related activities more than a week prior to any possible hearing. This represents a serious punishment potentially being handed out to an innocent party. I think that would be unacceptable regardless of whether we are talking about a football player or a regular student.

That's an NCAA problem, not a Notre Dame problem. If ND allowed the four players in question to continue practicing, playing on Saturdays, etc. wins might be vacated depending on the outcome of the investigation.

But I have one question. Do you think the administration would feel it necessary to publicly identify non-football playing students and restrict their participation in campus activities for 1 week plus, without holding a hearing? If anything I think these four may have been dealt with more harshly than the average student, at least in this isolated incident.

It's pretty clear at this point that ND didn't intend to publicly identify those guys. Their identities were either leaked by someone on the inside at ND, or by someone at the NCAA once ND notified it of the investigation (and based on the timing of the leak, the latter seems much more likely here).

 

[JughedJones]

my senior year I did a portion of a group project for a football player because he hadn't done any reading and didn't come to a single meeting. It was either do it for him or let his negligence affect my grade. It didn't take very long and I really didn't care, to be honest, but it left a deep impression on me. That guy learned nothing that semester. True, he probably got a decent grade, and that was probably all he cared about.

I did this at least 5 times during my undergrad, but none of them were athletes. Nothing is more aggravating, you don't want to snitch on them for their lack of effort and you don't want to have a huge hole in your assignment either.

I took a 'Non-Violence and Social Change' class my sophomore year and one of the guys I was grouped with DEMANDED that we tackle Israel/Palestine as our final project. I suggested that it was an incredibly difficult undertaking but he would not be dissuaded.

In the end, he didn't show up to any of our meetings and contributed almost nothing. I ended up writing almost the entire thing for five people. It made me incredibly angry, but 'we' got an A. I wanted to tell the Professor I did it all, but I let it go.

It's not just athletes that take advantage of people who will do the work.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

These new schollies were already available, correct?
Not from the 4 students that may be suspended?

 

[ulukinatme]

I did this at least 5 times during my undergrad, but none of them were athletes. Nothing is more aggravating, you don't want to snitch on them for their lack of effort and you don't want to have a huge hole in your assignment either.

I took a 'Non-Violence and Social Change' class my sophomore year and one of the guys I was grouped with DEMANDED that we tackle Israel/Palestine as our final project. I suggested that it was an incredibly difficult undertaking but he would not be dissuaded.

In the end, he didn't show up to any of our meetings and contributed almost nothing. I ended up writing almost the entire thing for five people. It made me incredibly angry, but 'we' got an A. I wanted to tell the Professor I did it all, but I let it go.

It's not just athletes that take advantage of people who will do the work.

Ha, I had something similar when I went for my first degree, an Associates, at a small community college. It was Software Programming, and after two years a class of 30 was whittled down to just myself and one other guy for the final class/project. That last class was basically just a 10-12 week project where you had to code some program from scratch together with your team. Well, my only other team member was infatuated with a networked Risk game that a team of 5 guys did years before us. He wanted to do a networked Chess game...complete with AI if you wanted to play single player. He would not be talked out of it. Yeah, to say this project was ambitious is an understatement for two guys with little experience to complete in 10-12 weeks.

Well, he did contribute quite a bit for the first week or two setting up the basic framework of the game while I research and tested the networking side. After that...he contributed nothing. I ended up having to complete all the network code, movement algorithms, capture logic, win scenarios, code to save/load old games, etc. I ended up putting in a shit ton of time solo just to get the thing done, and in the end we had to throw out single player AI because there simply wasn't time.

Karma bites these people in the ass eventually though. The reason he started contributing less and less to the project is because he was behind in some HTML course. The sad part is that the guy was pretty smart and nerdy, HTML is like fucking cake compared to C++, but he felt the class was beneath him so he wouldn't put in the time/effort/energy to pay attention and do the work. In the end, we got an A on the project after I burned a lot of midnight oil to get it done solo, and he still ended up failing his HTML class. I was the only student in the S&P program to graduate that year, everyone else had changed majors or in the case of my partner flunked out.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

In the end, he didn't show up to any of our meetings and contributed almost nothing. I ended up writing almost the entire thing for five people. It made me incredibly angry, but 'we' got an A. I wanted to tell the Professor I did it all, but I let it go.

That was good preparation for corporate America. Seems like every major bureaucracy has a small % of "doers" while the majority free rides and pushes as much work as possible onto other people's plates.

 

[Irish To The Core]

That's an NCAA problem, not a Notre Dame problem. If ND allowed the four players in question to continue practicing, playing on Saturdays, etc. wins might be vacated depending on the outcome of the investigation.



It's pretty clear at this point that ND didn't intend to publicly identify those guys. Their identities were either leaked by someone on the inside at ND, or by someone at the NCAA once ND notified it of the investigation (and based on the timing of the leak, the latter seems much more likely here).

I think you are incorrect about allowing players to continue practicing while under investigation being grounds for vacating wins. Playing in games is another thing altogether. Father Jenkins made it clear last Friday that no one had at that point been judged responsible for academic dishonesty. Until they have been a) judged responsible for academic dishonesty and b) played in a game, where is the violation?

Now it may be that the university has overwhelming evidence of academic dishonesty by all four players and that the hearing is almost certain to find that these players will have to be hit with further sanctions. If that is the case, then my criticism is off-base. However, if even one of these players is judged innocent of the charges, the university has shown poor judgement, in my opinion. What NCAA rule says that if a player is suspected of breaking NCAA rules, he must be held out of team activities until his innocence can be determined? If the university does not have an obvious open and shut case against all of these players then they should have waited for the hearing before punishing them.

I respect the university's honor code and I applaud their insistence that athletes are not above the rules. I am just concerned that they may have jumped the gun by making the investigation public and sanctioning potentially innocent students without due process.

As for the public identification issue. You are correct that Jenkins did not name the four players involved, but he announced that four players under investigation would be held out of practices beginning immediately, then the four guys were out of practice...so really their identities were made public partially through the actions of the university.

I understand your position and agree with most of what you say. I just think that if nothing is yet proven, due process should be allowed to proceed without punishing the innocent.

 

[Irish To The Core]

I did this at least 5 times during my undergrad, but none of them were athletes. Nothing is more aggravating, you don't want to snitch on them for their lack of effort and you don't want to have a huge hole in your assignment either.

I took a 'Non-Violence and Social Change' class my sophomore year and one of the guys I was grouped with DEMANDED that we tackle Israel/Palestine as our final project. I suggested that it was an incredibly difficult undertaking but he would not be dissuaded.

In the end, he didn't show up to any of our meetings and contributed almost nothing. I ended up writing almost the entire thing for five people. It made me incredibly angry, but 'we' got an A. I wanted to tell the Professor I did it all, but I let it go.

It's not just athletes that take advantage of people who will do the work.

It is always difficult to determine whether everyone is pulling their weight in a group. Furthermore (as whiskeyjack pointed out) the problem is not confined to educational institutions. Promotions and bonuses do not necessarily go to those responsible for doing most of the work in "the real world" as we all know. But if administrators, professors, teachers, etc. take the time, they can easily figure out who did what and reward those who put in the work. It is just reality however that many can't be bothered (many have been promoted by riding on the coat tails of others themselves)

 

[ResLife Hero]

Surprised how many people did all the work in college and just stayed quiet. I worked with a number of athletes on group projects and they all ended up carrying their weight. I had 1 guy who at first refused so I confronted him and said if he didn't at least put the effort in, I'd make sure his grade reflected it. Not harsh or threatening, just constructive criticism, and he ended up being awesome for our group.

Most of my Mendoza classes had a form you filled out before doing your presentation or turning in your project where you could divvy up 100% of the credit between team members. Only once did I end up having to send someone a 0%, and it wasn't a football player (also, everyone in the group gave him a 0% so it wasn't like I was going out on a limb). Accountability is the name of the game.

 

[Irish#1]

That was good preparation for corporate America. Seems like every major bureaucracy has a small % of "doers" while the majority free rides and pushes as much work as possible onto other people's plates.

Isn't that the truth. We have a huge opportunity for expansion into Mexico for some aerospace business. I recently took one of the aerospace employees onto my IT staff because she's a fast learner and gets things done with little direction. The guys that head up the aerospace keep coming back wanting her to work on their project because they're too lazy to work.

 

[wizards8507]

That was good preparation for corporate America. Seems like every major bureaucracy has a small % of "doers" while the majority free rides and pushes as much work as possible onto other people's plates.

Yeah I'm sick of those damn slackers posting on message boards all day.

 

[pmac98]

Correct

Correct

These new schollies were already available, correct?
Not from the 4 students that may be suspended?

We were only at about 82 after NSD.

- Sykes to IU
- Springmann to medical
+ VanGorder
+ these 3 Walkons today

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Actually over the off season we lost Kinlaw, Mahone, Sykes and Springman. That's 4 scholarships right there.


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[stlnd01]

Group projects are bullshit.

Is there some way to put a little note on the thread title when there's actual news here?

 

[chyrspchuck]

Actually over the off season we lost Kinlaw, Mahone, Sykes and Springman. That's 4 scholarships right there.

Man forgot all about the Mahone fiasco. We've been through a lot this offseason.

 

[Axl Rose]

OK, i took a break from this thread hoping to come back and see some some news. Anyone know when this matter will be resolved? How long will it take? And is it possible we will have the 4 by the first game?