BVG Fired

[NorthDakota]

What has Stanford won, again? They also haven't won any titles. Nice team, nice program, but they are absolute bridesmaids. 3 BCS wins, 2 were against crap teams (VT and Iowa)

And this goes back far longer than just under BK..since Holtz left we've been trapped at this level (except 2012)

And Why is it feast or famine? I'm simply saying that we let in a few guys that are on the cusp and get them some extra help...I'm not suggesting to let every moron in.

Yep. Stanford are bridesmaids....but if ND could figure out what Stanford is doing, ND would not be bridesmaids.

 

[IrishBroker]

Yep. Stanford are bridesmaids....but if ND could figure out what Stanford is doing, ND would not be bridesmaids.

Ok, I could buy that actually...

 

[Ndaccountant]

What has Stanford won, again? They also haven't won any titles. Nice team, nice program, but they are absolute bridesmaids. 3 BCS wins, 2 were against crap teams (VT and Iowa)

And this goes back far longer than just under BK..since Holtz left we've been trapped at this level (except 2012)

And Why is it feast or famine? I'm simply saying that we let in a few guys that are on the cusp and get them some extra help...I'm not suggesting to let every moron in.

Holtz, save his first year, won roughly 79% of his games. Shaw? over 80%. I would take that. Plus, like Dakota pointed out, ND should be able to do it better than Stanford. Stanford and Shaw is proof that it can work.

Also, what makes you think borderline recruits haven't been getting in? Extra help? Where is the line?

 

[ND NYC]

What has Stanford won, again? They also haven't won any titles. Nice team, nice program, but they are absolute bridesmaids. 3 BCS wins, 2 were against crap teams (VT and Iowa)

And this goes back far longer than just under BK..since Holtz left we've been trapped at this level (except 2012)

And Why is it feast or famine? I'm simply saying that we let in a few guys that are on the cusp and get them some extra help...I'm not suggesting to let every moron in.

we already do this...

 

[Ignats]

2. Lower the standards for football players. If we want to win big, not just 9 wins and a meaningless bowl game, then we need to start allowing those who are borderline, into our program. It will not hurt the program to allow a few through the cracks that have good character, but grades that aren't perfect. Or we can just accept that we won't compete year in and year out and get lucky once every 10-15 yrs or so. With Juco transfers, over signing, and easier standards at other schools, it's impressive that we've managed to stay relevant for this long.

Completely disagree with this. Stanford has been a more successful program than ND over the past 8+ years with higher academic standards. You have to recruit the right kids and the right mentality.

 

[NorthDakota]

Just looked at Pelini's resume. Dude's been a boss as a D Coordinator. Write him a check at the end of the season.

 

[NDRock]

Yep. Stanford are bridesmaids....but if ND could figure out what Stanford is doing, ND would not be bridesmaids.

They use a fullback.

 

[IrishLax]

Holtz, save his first year, won roughly 79% of his games. Shaw? over 80%. I would take that. Plus, like Dakota pointed out, ND should be able to do it better than Stanford. Stanford and Shaw is proof that it can work.

Also, what makes you think borderline recruits haven't been getting in? Extra help? Where is the line?

I agree. The thing about Stanford is that they established an identity, and then have recruited to that identity since Harbaugh. They don't change what they do. Saban is the same way, Ohio State is the same way, Oregon was the same way under Chip Kelly, Baylor under Briles... look at basically every consistently good program over the past decade, and the one thing that is the same is that they know who they are and try to get as good at that as possible.

Contrast to the different offenses Kelly has run from 2010 to now. Changes every year. Defense... Diaco had an identity, but stopped recruiting to it well enough. BVG didn't have an identity, basically waffled around for 3 seasons trying to figure out something that works with the personnel issues from the second half of 2014 forward.

So I really believe you are correct, and I don't really think it matter who we get as long as they have a PROVEN system and identity for both sides of the ball. The academics stuff and whatever is all just window dressing... ND can get in the players they need to get in. They did it under Weis (Harrison Smith, Floyd, Tate, Clausen, Rudolph, Te'o, Martin, etc... elite NFL caliber players on both sides of the ball) and Kelly (Jaylon Smith, Will Fuller, Kizer, Wimbush, Stanley, Tuitt, etc.)

Get a coach with some stones like Patterson, Peterson, Herman, etc. and the wins are going to pile up. Patterson especially is intriguing because he has a system for both sides of the ball that has produced great results despite being a 3rd tier up-jumped program from the Mountain West.

The problem right now is that from '11 through '14 we basically had no identity in what we were recruiting on the defensive side of the ball and have MASSIVE holes to show for it. And we're probably a full season away from turning that around regardless of who we hire.

 

[BGIF]

1. Join a conference. I am one of the biggest fans of independence, but it's clear that we need to start moving forward as a program. We will always get left out with a loss, in favor of a power 5. After Texas, we were sunk, and everyone here knew it. But if we were in a power 5 conference, we win that title and we are likely in.(permitting we won the rest of the way, but you get my point)

2. Lower the standards for football players. If we want to win big, not just 9 wins and a meaningless bowl game, then we need to start allowing those who are borderline, into our program. It will not hurt the program to allow a few through the cracks that have good character, but grades that aren't perfect. Or we can just accept that we won't compete year in and year out and get lucky once every 10-15 yrs or so. With Juco transfers, over signing, and easier standards at other schools, it's impressive that we've managed to stay relevant for this long.

3. Take Juco transfers. I have no idea why we don't. Other than our own ego.

At least once a season for the years I've been on IE I written this kind of post to explain to ND to fans that are clueless that ND students play sports there. They aren't athletes that "go to play school". (I think that quote is attributable to an OSU athlete)


1. We weren't sunk after Texas. Jerry Palm had ND in the playoffs.

2. The max score on the ACT is 36. A 34 at ND puts you in the 75th percentile. Two points from the top score and there's still 25% ahead of you. Most ND football players are in the low to mid 20's.
Last average SAT score I saw for ND (couple of years ago) was 1350 out of a perfect 1600. Most ND football players are in the 950-1200 range.

ND football players compete against All-Americans on Saturdays. On Mondays through Fridays they have to compete in an ND classroom with student all-americans. Most ND Students were in the Top 5% of their HS class.

At Notre Dame all freshman take First Year Studies a program set up to build a solid foundation for your remaining three years. ND students don't get to take Music Appreciation, Golf, and Aids Awareness as your semester course load. You take real courses. I've not going to enumerate them. Learn something about the university on your own. Google Notre Dame Freshman (First Year) Studies. While you're at it google ND Programs of Studies (Majors). Some majors are easier than others, some courses are easier than others but

Unlike Michigan which Harbaugh verbally shredded, while he was Stanford's HC, for steering students into cake courses and meaningless programs that kept them eligible without preparing them for life outside the NFL. ND has no bogus programs. UNC violated NCAA rules with No Show, No Work classes for 20 years. ND doesn't have them. At Tennessee you can take two courses in Walking at 3 credits each. Not at ND. Auburn admitted a football player in the 80's with an ACT of 7. A local paper uncovered that as a senior had not attended any classes. A reporter asked, head coach Pat Dye if he would play that ineligible player in the bowl game. Dye responded, "I'm the coach not a professor. I don't know who goes to school. The athlete in question played in the bowl game despite the reporter's news story. Not at ND.

So let's take your tack and admit students with ACTs of 16, SATs of 800 and watch them flunk out in one semester. Maybe, they make to their sophomore year and then flunk out. Then ND since they don't take JUCO and Transfers (except 5th year grads) have to recruit another 17 or 18 year old where Herman or Saban plug in a 20 year JUCO or a kid that did like coach X at State U who didn't play him enough. Check Herman's roster ... 18 JUCO's and/or Transfers. Houston doesn't care. ND does.

3. ND doesn't take JUCOs because they aren't prepared for NDs academic environment! JUCO's go that route because they couldn't meet the minimum NCAA Clearinghouse Requirements (core course GPA and Test, ACT or SAT, on a sliding scale). JUCO's don't go to Hinds Junior College to take Calculus to get into ND. They go to take Math for Jocks because if they get an Associates Degree from a JUCO they DON'T have to pass the NCAA Clearinghouse requirements. Those get waived with an associate degree.

Now take that 20 year JUCO with two years in a weight room and send him to ND. He can't be a soph as he lacks First Year of Studies prerequisites for this major (college program). Actually he can't even be a freshman at ND because he doesn't have the prerequisites to ND's First Year of Studies coursework. (Did you take 5 minutes to look up the courses taken in ND's First Year so you'll understand why the question shouldn't be asked by an ND fan?)

In the 3 or 4 decades I can recall only 3 JUCO's ever taken into ND to play football. 1) Rudy Ruettiger in the 70's who graduated HS, went to work, then tried to get into ND. He lacked the academics and went to Holy Cross (then a junior college on the ND campus) and transferred from there into ND (See the movie). 2) Larry Moriarty around 1980. He had mononucleosis his senior year of HS missing most of that year. An excellent student he purposely went the JUCO route to build up his strength lost from a year out of sports AND to take courses which would prepare him for the ND classroom. 3) Skip Holtz, Lou's kid. He lacked the grades/coursework ND required so he also went to Holy Cross and with sufficient academics was allowed to transfer into ND. (N.B. Holy Cross has been a 4 year college for several years). All 3 graduated.

In 1986, ND took in 3 Proposition 48, two in football and one in basketball. They were required to devote all their time to study. No football, no activities just classroom work and study hall. President Malloy dropped the program because he felt it wasn't fair to those students to miss out on ND life.

Back in the Rockne to Leahy eras athletes could transfer into ND easily. When Leahy left Boston College to become head coach at ND at least one very talented BC player followed him. Under President Hesburgh ND's academic environment was upgraded significantly. Under his successor President Malloy it was further upgraded.

BTW, President Hesburgh was also the man who fired (retired) Frank Leahy when he asked for a leave of absence due to failing health from the incredible hours he put in as ND's football coach. In his place he promoted ND's freshman coach Terry Brennan, an All-American under Leahy, to replace Leahy as head coach. Five years later Hesburgh fired Brennan.

 

[ulukinatme]

They use a fullback.

5 Wide Fullbacks! Harumph.

 

[ACamp1900]

Fucking love this guy!

This is where it all went wrong, right here... just for record's sake.

 

[Circa]

1. Join a conference. I am one of the biggest fans of independence, but it's clear that we need to start moving forward as a program. We will always get left out with a loss, in favor of a power 5. After Texas, we were sunk, and everyone here knew it. But if we were in a power 5 conference, we win that title and we are likely in.(permitting we won the rest of the way, but you get my point)

2. Lower the standards for football players. If we want to win big, not just 9 wins and a meaningless bowl game, then we need to start allowing those who are borderline, into our program. It will not hurt the program to allow a few through the cracks that have good character, but grades that aren't perfect. Or we can just accept that we won't compete year in and year out and get lucky once every 10-15 yrs or so. With Juco transfers, over signing, and easier standards at other schools, it's impressive that we've managed to stay relevant for this long.

3. Take Juco transfers. I have no idea why we don't. Other than our own ego.

I'm happy I'm reading this instead of 'writing, thinking' It. I'm a bit in over my head at times on this board but my heart keeps me safe and sound. We're all as human as It takes and when the two proximities collide.. ND Football seems to change people..

 

[IrishLax]

OMG this is 1st page gold.

It's as if people don't remember he shut out Michigan for the first time anyone has done that in decades, and then won a defensive slug fest against a highly rated Stanford team. It's not like his defense never worked... which is why I think Kelly went to bat for him as long as he did.

Through the first five games, he gave up 17, 0, 14, 15, 14. Then he had a bit of a debacle against UNC, then he put up a valiant showing against FSU on the road, and then we had injuries and the wheels fell off the bus.

What was the difference between those 5 games and this year? Look at Michigan game starters.

Sheldon Day, healthy Jarron Jones, Isaac Rochelle, and Romeo Okwara. Substantially better than Daniel Cage, Jerry Tillery, Isaac Rochelle, and Andrew Trumbetti.

Jaylon Smith, healthy Joe Schmidt who could actually run and tackle. Substantially better than Nyles Morgan and TeVon Coney.

Cole Luke, Cody Riggs, Matthias Farley, Max Redfield, Elijah Shumate versus...
Cole Luke, Nick Coleman, who-the-hell-knows-true-freshman-nickel, Devin Studstill, Drue "Traffic Cone" Tranquill.

For the five games where Brian Van Gorder actually had competent defensive personnel, he fielded good defenses. I don't think the schemes are nearly the problem people think they are when you have elite players. His problem is that he inherited recruiting holes from Diaco, then in the '15 class didn't do nearly enough to address them (specifically in the secondary and on the DL). He didn't really do enough in '16 either... where are the difference makers on DL or at LB?

But it's revisionist history to act like he sucked from the moment he stepped foot on campus, or that he's the cause of all that's wrong (hint: Kelly should be able to look at a depth chart and say "hey, maybe we should recruit some...")

 

[Circa]

It's as if people don't remember he shut out Michigan for the first time anyone has done that in decades, and then won a defensive slug fest against a highly rated Stanford team. It's not like his defense never worked... which is why I think Kelly went to bat for him as long as he did.

Through the first five games, he gave up 17, 0, 14, 15, 14. Then he had a bit of a debacle against UNC, then he put up a valiant showing against FSU on the road, and then we had injuries and the wheels fell off the bus.

What was the difference between those 5 games and this year? Look at Michigan game starters.

Sheldon Day, healthy Jarron Jones, Isaac Rochelle, and Romeo Okwara. Substantially better than Daniel Cage, Jerry Tillery, Isaac Rochelle, and Andrew Trumbetti.

Jaylon Smith, healthy Joe Schmidt who could actually run and tackle. Substantially better than Nyles Morgan and TeVon Coney.

Cole Luke, Cody Riggs, Matthias Farley, Max Redfield, Elijah Shumate versus...
Cole Luke, Nick Coleman, who-the-hell-knows-true-freshman-nickel, Devin Studstill, Drue "Traffic Cone" Tranquill.

For the five games where Brian Van Gorder actually had competent defensive personnel, he fielded good defenses. I don't think the schemes are nearly the problem people think they are when you have elite players. His problem is that he inherited recruiting holes from Diaco, then in the '15 class didn't do nearly enough to address them (specifically in the secondary and on the DL). He didn't really do enough in '16 either... where are the difference makers on DL or at LB?

But it's revisionist history to act like he sucked from the moment he stepped foot on campus, or that he's the cause of all that's wrong (hint: Kelly should be able to look at a depth chart and say "hey, maybe we should recruit some...")

I agree and It's irritating to say. Kelly Is the "head" Coach! He should see the lil things!

 

[T Town Tommy]

It's as if people don't remember he shut out Michigan for the first time anyone has done that in decades, and then won a defensive slug fest against a highly rated Stanford team. It's not like his defense never worked... which is why I think Kelly went to bat for him as long as he did.

Through the first five games, he gave up 17, 0, 14, 15, 14. Then he had a bit of a debacle against UNC, then he put up a valiant showing against FSU on the road, and then we had injuries and the wheels fell off the bus.

What was the difference between those 5 games and this year? Look at Michigan game starters.

Sheldon Day, healthy Jarron Jones, Isaac Rochelle, and Romeo Okwara. Substantially better than Daniel Cage, Jerry Tillery, Isaac Rochelle, and Andrew Trumbetti.

Jaylon Smith, healthy Joe Schmidt who could actually run and tackle. Substantially better than Nyles Morgan and TeVon Coney.

Cole Luke, Cody Riggs, Matthias Farley, Max Redfield, Elijah Shumate versus...
Cole Luke, Nick Coleman, who-the-hell-knows-true-freshman-nickel, Devin Studstill, Drue "Traffic Cone" Tranquill.

For the five games where Brian Van Gorder actually had competent defensive personnel, he fielded good defenses. I don't think the schemes are nearly the problem people think they are when you have elite players. His problem is that he inherited recruiting holes from Diaco, then in the '15 class didn't do nearly enough to address them (specifically in the secondary and on the DL). He didn't really do enough in '16 either... where are the difference makers on DL or at LB?

But it's revisionist history to act like he sucked from the moment he stepped foot on campus, or that he's the cause of all that's wrong (hint: Kelly should be able to look at a depth chart and say "hey, maybe we should recruit some...")

I can agree with this. When BVG had the players his scheme worked well. The issue that probably was his downfall was his inability to recruit - or his steadfast reluctance to recruit at all. A couple of recruiting cycles missing players that fit your scheme will haunt you in the end. Add that with some obvious talent evaluation problems in recruiting as a whole and success is difficult at best. Throw in some key injuries, a few off the field issues, and it's time to pack the bags. Not making excuses for BVG. It was his defense and it failed.

 

[Bluto]

One of the guys on the Blue Gold Illustrated podcast threw BVG under the bus, backed it up a couple times then got out with a flamethrower and burned the corpse. Lol. Said BVG was a total micro manager with all the position groups, the player rotations (or lack there of) refused to adapt the scheme to the personnel and ultimately the defensive dumpster fire is 100% on him.

 

[BeatSC]

It's as if people don't remember he shut out Michigan for the first time anyone has done that in decades, and then won a defensive slug fest against a highly rated Stanford team. It's not like his defense never worked... which is why I think Kelly went to bat for him as long as he did.

Through the first five games, he gave up 17, 0, 14, 15, 14. Then he had a bit of a debacle against UNC, then he put up a valiant showing against FSU on the road, and then we had injuries and the wheels fell off the bus.

What was the difference between those 5 games and this year? Look at Michigan game starters.

Sheldon Day, healthy Jarron Jones, Isaac Rochelle, and Romeo Okwara. Substantially better than Daniel Cage, Jerry Tillery, Isaac Rochelle, and Andrew Trumbetti.

Jaylon Smith, healthy Joe Schmidt who could actually run and tackle. Substantially better than Nyles Morgan and TeVon Coney.

Cole Luke, Cody Riggs, Matthias Farley, Max Redfield, Elijah Shumate versus...
Cole Luke, Nick Coleman, who-the-hell-knows-true-freshman-nickel, Devin Studstill, Drue "Traffic Cone" Tranquill.

For the five games where Brian Van Gorder actually had competent defensive personnel, he fielded good defenses. I don't think the schemes are nearly the problem people think they are when you have elite players. His problem is that he inherited recruiting holes from Diaco, then in the '15 class didn't do nearly enough to address them (specifically in the secondary and on the DL). He didn't really do enough in '16 either... where are the difference makers on DL or at LB?

But it's revisionist history to act like he sucked from the moment he stepped foot on campus, or that he's the cause of all that's wrong (hint: Kelly should be able to look at a depth chart and say "hey, maybe we should recruit some...")

Dude i hope you are a touch typist as that was alot of work. When UNC figured out uptempo was BVG's and NDs krytonite this D and BVG has been basicallly awful.

 

[irishff1014]

One of the guys on the Blue Gold Illustrated podcast there BVG under the bus, backed it up a couple times then got out with a flamethrower and burned the corpse. Lol. Said BVG was a total micro manager with all the position groups, the player rotations (or lack there of) refused to adapt the scheme to the personnel and ultimately the defensive dumpster fire is 100% on him.

Haha awesome

 

[rocket66]

One of the guys on the Blue Gold Illustrated podcast there BVG under the bus, backed it up a couple times then got out with a flamethrower and burned the corpse. Lol. Said BVG was a total micro manager with all the position groups, the player rotations (or lack there of) refused to adapt the scheme to the personnel and ultimately the defensive dumpster fire is 100% on him.

Wonder how accurate this is?


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[Bluto]

Wonder how accurate this is?


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Seems like there is a good body of evidence that points to that.

 

[NDRock]

Wonder how accurate this is?


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I hope it is very accurate.

 

[NDdomer2]

Wonder how accurate this is?


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Can't speak to all of it but I know during the Nevada game Gilmore made a substitution in red zone and vangorder lost his shit and shoved Gilmore.

 

[stlnd01]

One of the guys on the Blue Gold Illustrated podcast threw BVG under the bus, backed it up a couple times then got out with a flamethrower and burned the corpse. Lol. Said BVG was a total micro manager with all the position groups, the player rotations (or lack there of) refused to adapt the scheme to the personnel and ultimately the defensive dumpster fire is 100% on him.

The sense that guys like Nyles Morgan (last year) and Jay Hayes (this year) can't see the field over decidedly-less-talented guys like Schmidt and Trumbetti would seem to suggest that's the case.
And, yes, BVG's schemes work with elite talent. But the reality of college football is you're not always going to have elite talent. You have to make due with the 85 guys, minus injuries, that you've got. It's not like the NFL. And if we never hired another NFL guy again, that'd be fine.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Dude i hope you are a touch typist as that was alot of work. When UNC figured out uptempo was BVG's and NDs krytonite this D and BVG has been basicallly awful.

BVG never figured out the spread. Personnel is a little circular (though valid) because obviously our players are going to seem worse when they D is playing poorly.

 

[rocket66]

The sense that guys like Nyles Morgan (last year) and Jay Hayes (this year) can't see the field over decidedly-less-talented guys like Schmidt and Trumbetti would seem to suggest that's the case.

And, yes, BVG's schemes work with elite talent. But the reality of college football is you're not always going to have elite talent. You have to make due with the 85 guys, minus injuries, that you've got. It's not like the NFL. And if we never hired another NFL guy again, that'd be fine.

Ha, my scheme would also work with elite talent!


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[Bogtrotter07]

Can't speak to all of it but I know during the Nevada game Gilmore made a substitution in red zone and vangorder lost his shit and shoved Gilmore.

One of several . . .

And don't you remember for the bulk of the year, last year, defensive group meetings were banned, under punishment of dismemberment and death?

Just kidding about the last part. But there was only one defensive meeting.

Between the lines last year, and obvious this year is that was the crushing of defensive position coaching morale. How long for the players to follow?

 

[kmoose]

People keep talking about Stanford as if the Stanford student athlete's academic load is equivalent to the Notre Dame student's academic load, and it just isn't true. Stanford might be equally as hard, or even harder, to get into as ND. But it's what happens AFTER that that really disadvantages Notre Dame. Notre Dame actively looks for, finds, and strictly addresses academic misconduct. Stanford? Stanford University: List Of "Easy" Classes Was Provided Only To Athletes - Business Insider

So please stop acting like the two experiences are identical, and that Stanford's success is some kind of indictment of the way ND is doing it.

 

[irishff1014]

Can't speak to all of it but I know during the Nevada game Gilmore made a substitution in red zone and vangorder lost his shit and shoved Gilmore.

I read on a 247 article that Kelly said something along the lines to we need to get more players on the field and have some players not playing so many reps. That's not what he said word for word but i can't find it now if i do i will post it.

That would make a huge difference on the D-line.

 

[PANDFAN]

A look at Notre Dame DC Greg Hudson


spoke w/ fsu former players....nothing but positives, not only on scheme, coaching style but being a mentor...

Mister Alexander-former player at fsu said he is NOW an ND fan because of him coaching there...

 

[irishff1014]

A look at Notre Dame DC Greg Hudson


spoke w/ fsu former players....nothing but positives, not only on scheme, coaching style but being a mentor...

Mister Alexander-former player at fsu said he is NOW an ND fan because of him coaching there...

I just read this article too. sounds like we went from one extreme to another.