The IE Thunderdome (Debate Thread)

[Old Man Mike]

I feel strongly both ways.

 

[BeauBenken]

I was sold on him after the first quarter of the first game of '19 lol. ND needed to get its footing on defense, but that didn't change that Satterfield had those dudes ready to go right away. It will be very interesting to see how big a step they take in year two.

I was co-leader of the "Brohm for Next ND Head Coach" fan club, but last year threw out some red flags. If he could coach the way he recruits wide receivers, he'd win the B1G West no problem. Let's see how it goes this year with his guys getting older.

Satterfield worked with a team with no top dog at quarterback and really only a couple of playmakers that was chosen to finish last in their division and made them a quality team that finished only second to Clemson in their division. And he's never lost a bowl game. I like him.

 

[TorontoGold]

Satterfield worked with a team with no top dog at quarterback and really only a couple of playmakers that was chosen to finish last in their division and made them a quality team that finished only second to Clemson in their division. And he's never lost a bowl game. I like him.

Scott Satterfield also doesn't appear to have those big school ties that someone like Fleck has (Ohio State GA). I guess Satterfield being from North Carolina could make him an attractive candidate for the UNC job once Mack leaves, but hard to see him pass up the ND job if offered against the UNC job.

 

[IrishLion]

With so much of the fanbase invested in paper championships and top 5 classes, I'm not so sure I agree with that anymore.

Even if Fleck had some overrated clunkers, he'd be able to keep the fanbase vested with recruiting. The crazy mob mentality the fanbase has these days for recruiting stars is more real than wins/losses and doing things the right way. I've followed all 3 paid site message boards and this one for approx. 8 years now. I truly believe that there is a large swath of the fanbase that cares more about recruiting than the game itself. It's a completely different competition that some understand better than the game of football. It makes it easier for them to comprehend.

Take this offseason as an example. We're not talking about 33-6, we're talking about top 5-10 classes. We're not talking about trusting the process of evaluations, we're talking in absolutes based on ratings that were given to high schoolers.

It doesn't make sense to me, but recruiting really has taken over the fanbase. Not sure that's even debatable.

The trip to the playoffs in '18, and seeing the same three names at the top each year (Bama, Clemson, Ohio State), has made it apparent exactly where ND is falling short, and that's why I think the conversation has shifted in the way that you've noted.

The program is as healthy as it has ever been, from top-to-bottom, in nearly every aspect. That's why they're in a place to be a yearly 10-win team now. People are running out of things to complain about lol.

The only thing people can point to and say "see, that's why we'll never win a natty" or "we'll never close the gap with those three at the top" is the lack of 5-star talent. And that answers the only two questions there are right now.

1. Can the team win a natty? - Need more 5-star talent
2. Can the team stop laying eggs in big games? - Need more 5-star talent

Of course, there are things that would need to happen to attract that type of talent outside of what they're already doing... but the primary driver to closing that gap would be to hire a dude like Fleck and let him outwork everyone on the trail while selling ND's history and tradition.

He gets dudes to go to war over "Row the Boat"... imagine what he'd do with "Shake Down the Thunder" during a pregrame speech with Clemson coming to town.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

That's it? Figured he pulled a Craig James or something.

#RememberTheFive

We're not talking about trusting the process of evaluations, we're talking in absolutes based on ratings that were given to high schoolers by mostly untalented hacks looking to sell click-bait.

FTFY.

It doesn't make sense to me, but recruiting really has taken over the fanbase. Not sure that's even debatable.

It's a hope thing. W-L record shows how good you are now. Recruiting ranks (supposedly) show how good you're likely to be tomorrow. Some fans are so emotionally invested in their team that they need a tangible metric to tell them, "Better days are just around the corner."

 

[NDRock]

The trip to the playoffs in '18, and seeing the same three names at the top each year (Bama, Clemson, Ohio State), has made it apparent exactly where ND is falling short, and that's why I think the conversation has shifted in the way that you've noted.

The program is as healthy as it has ever been, from top-to-bottom, in nearly every aspect. That's why they're in a place to be a yearly 10-win team now. People are running out of things to complain about lol.

The only thing people can point to and say "see, that's why we'll never win a natty" or "we'll never close the gap with those three at the top" is the lack of 5-star talent. And that answers the only two questions there are right now.

1. Can the team win a natty? - Need more 5-star talent
2. Can the team stop laying eggs in big games? - Need more 5-star talent

Of course, there are things that would need to happen to attract that type of talent outside of what they're already doing... but the primary driver to closing that gap would be to hire a dude like Fleck and let him outwork everyone on the trail while selling ND's history and tradition.

He gets dudes to go to war over "Row the Boat"... imagine what he'd do with "Shake Down the Thunder" during a pregrame speech with Clemson coming to town.

Yeah, not sure how someone can be surprised that recruiting is looked at as being so important. In literally every sport, better players = better teams. The NFL draft and free agency period is huge as well. Add to the fact that the turnover in college is even more dramatic and it's vital recruiting keeps ticking along. Plus, the season is relatively short so not much else to discuss.

One thing about CFB, it's impossible to look at recent history (2000 and later) and find a NC team that wasn't full of elite talent or at least an elite QB leading the way. ND has neither, so I have zero expectations of a NC winning season. Another 10 win season would be great. I think Kelly has done a great job the last three years with the talent he's had. Few if any coaches would have done better than 33-6.

 

[Rack Em]

The trip to the playoffs in '18, and seeing the same three names at the top each year (Bama, Clemson, Ohio State), has made it apparent exactly where ND is falling short, and that's why I think the conversation has shifted in the way that you've noted.

The program is as healthy as it has ever been, from top-to-bottom, in nearly every aspect. That's why they're in a place to be a yearly 10-win team now. People are running out of things to complain about lol.

The only thing people can point to and say "see, that's why we'll never win a natty" or "we'll never close the gap with those three at the top" is the lack of 5-star talent. And that answers the only two questions there are right now.

1. Can the team win a natty? - Need more 5-star talent
2. Can the team stop laying eggs in big games? - Need more 5-star talent

Of course, there are things that would need to happen to attract that type of talent outside of what they're already doing... but the primary driver to closing that gap would be to hire a dude like Fleck and let him outwork everyone on the trail while selling ND's history and tradition.

He gets dudes to go to war over "Row the Boat"... imagine what he'd do with "Shake Down the Thunder" during a pregrame speech with Clemson coming to town.

I agree with everything here except the bolded. 5 star talent will help, but Kelly needs to sack up and stop pooping his pants when the lights come on. If we're as talented as LL says, then we shouldn't get run out of the stadium by Miami or Michigan. That's embarrassing.

I think Fleck could do great things at ND. Unfortunately I think Kelly has hit his ceiling here. He's done a lot, but he's not a motivator. He's the CEO who reorganized the company and kept the stock price from plummeting. Soon it will be time to find the next guy to drive that momentum into more 5 star recruits.

 

[Black Irish]

New topic for discussion: where does Brian Kelly fall in the historical ND coach ranking if he does not win a Natty but keeps putting together 10-2 range seasons for the remainder of his tenure? Does he stay at #5 just below the legendary 4 of: Rockne, Leahy, Parseghian, & Holtz if he never gets the Irish to the title?

 

[Rack Em]

Short List:

Fleck
Satterfield
Luke Fickell
Bryan Harsin

Wild Card:
Bill Clark of UAB

 

[IrishLion]

Short List:

Fleck
Satterfield
Luke Fickell
Bryan Harsin

Wild Card:
Bill Clark of UAB

Fickell is the wholesome version of PJ Fleck. I'd be fine with either of those guys.

(The question on Fickell is if his outstanding recruiting returns at UC would carry over to head-to-head battles with elite programs. I think it would, but that's just me being a homer probably.)

 

[ACamp1900]

New topic for discussion: where does Brian Kelly fall in the historical ND coach ranking if he does not win a Natty but keeps putting together 10-2 range seasons for the remainder of his tenure? Does he stay at #5 just below the legendary 4 of: Rockne, Leahy, Parseghian, & Holtz if he never gets the Irish to the title?

Does he stay at #5!!??? Who says he’s there now??? I wouldn’t

 

[Irish#1]

Does he stay at #5!!??? Who says he’s there now??? I wouldn’t

#5 Devine

 

[Rack Em]

Fickell is the wholesome version of PJ Fleck. I'd be fine with either of those guys.

(The question on Fickell is if his outstanding recruiting returns at UC would carry over to head-to-head battles with elite programs. I think it would, but that's just me being a homer probably.)

I almost didn't post his name because I was afraid you'd come unglued at the thought of Fickell leaving.

And I don't think the city of Cincinnati can handle ND poaching another HC.

All UC fans: "Oh you went to Notre Dame? I hate the way Brian Kelly just left UC right before the Sugar Bowl! That was such a dick move!"

Me: "Uhh what did you want him to do? Just tell the team 'LOL see ya losers' at the beginning?"

 

[IrishLion]

I almost didn't post his name because I was afraid you'd come unglued at the thought of Fickell leaving.

And I don't think the city of Cincinnati can handle ND poaching another HC.

All UC fans: "Oh you went to Notre Dame? I hate the way Brian Kelly just left UC right before the Sugar Bowl! That was such a dick move!"

Me: "Uhh what did you want him to do? Just tell the team 'LOL see ya losers' at the beginning?"

It's a bittersweet type of thing.

ND is my first love, and UC is a very close second. ND takes precedence, so I was banging the 'BK to ND' drum during the 2008 season... then Chuck Weis got another season, and I thought BK would end up getting hired somewhere else.

My bros that are UC fans try to poke me about BK/ND/crappy coaching change situations, but they know the reality that many more coaches would have done them even dirtier to get to ND.

 

[Irish YJ]

#5 Devine

Yup, higher win % and a NC.

Out of ND coaches with 5 or more seasons, he's 8th in win %.

I'd definitely rank Harper in front of him, and perhaps Layden too (toss up). Harper won the Army game, which is arguably the game that put ND on the map. He also coached ND baseball and basketball at the same time, and was AD at the same time. Layden was the AD too. Both were ND players in their young days.

 

[notredomer23]

All these discussions on future coaches are fruitless because Brian Kelly is going to be our coach until at least 2028.

Ducks for cover

 

[phork]

Fleck or Urban Meyer. Thats it.

 

[GATTACA!]

Luke Fickell sucks.

 

[IrishLion]

Fleck or Urban Meyer. Thats it.

Luke Fickell sucks.

 

[Irish#1]

Yup, higher win % and a NC.

Out of ND coaches with 5 or more seasons, he's 8th in win %.

I'd definitely rank Harper in front of him, and perhaps Layden too (toss up). Harper won the Army game, which is arguably the game that put ND on the map. He also coached ND baseball and basketball at the same time, and was AD at the same time. Layden was the AD too. Both were ND players in their young days.

And he produced Rudy!

 

[Black Irish]

#5 Devine

He loses status points for keeping Rudy on the bench all that time.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Your All-BK team, both sides of the ball. Go. If y'all screw up the O-line...

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

Your All-BK team, both sides of the ball. Go. If y'all screw up the O-line...

Quick question, are we allowed to use Weis/BK Crossovers, i.e. Michael Floyd and Kyle Rudolph, for example? Or BK recruits only?

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

This is all off the top of my head so I expect to have to fix a couple glaring omissions. Also, I'm running a 4-3 defense.

LT - Stanley
LG - Q
C - The other Martin
RG - Martin
RT - McGlinchey

TE - Eifert
Slot - TJ Jones
WR - Floyd (feels like cheating; otherwise I take Claypool)
WR - Fuller
QB - Kizer
RB - It's hard to choose but I think I would take Procise over Adams

SDE - Tuitt
WDE - J. Okwara
DT - Tillery
NT - 2012 version of Nix

LB - Tranquill (maybe he can play safety and JOK goes here)
LB - Te'o
LB - Jaylon

CB - Love
CB - Russell? This one is tough.
S - Gilman
S - Elliot? No. Motta? No. Harrison Smith (or if that's not a BK guy then I'm putting Kyle Hamilton. He was a half starter and made an obscene number of plays when he was on the field. He's a star.)

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

Also I'd like to pose my own debate question:

Which incoming freshman do you think has the biggest impact on the 2020 season? I will have to say Chris Tyree, only because I think he has the most unique skill set at his position compared to the other guys in the RB room we currently have.

But I think you could make an argument that Jordan Johnson or Michael Mayer could breakout year 1 too. I just think guys like Kevin Austin, Braden Lenzy, Javon McKinley and Bennett Skowronek will block Johnson from meaningful minutes and impact. At TE, I am extremely high on Tommy Tremble as our gadget TE who will move all over, and he proved last year he is no slouch in the blocking department, and Brock Wright will be tough to beat out on the depth chart.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Quick question, are we allowed to use Weis/BK Crossovers, i.e. Michael Floyd and Kyle Rudolph, for example? Or BK recruits only?

I'll allow it. Because let's be honest, Teo was a BK player. And ZMart is definitely on the All-BK OL.

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

This is all off the top of my head so I expect to have to fix a couple glaring omissions. Also, I'm running a 4-3 defense.

LT - Stanley
LG - Q
C - The other Martin
RG - Martin
RT - McGlinchey

TE - Eifert
Slot - TJ Jones
WR - Floyd (feels like cheating; otherwise I take Claypool)
WR - Fuller
QB - Kizer
RB - It's hard to choose but I think I would take Procise over Adams

SDE - Tuitt
WDE - J. Okwara
DT - Day
NT - 2012 version of Nix

LB - Tranquil
LB - Te'o
LB - JOK

CB - Love
CB - Russell? This one is tough.
S - Gilman
S - Elliot? No. Motta? No. It's insane but I'm putting Kyle Hamilton. He was a half starter and made an obscene number of plays when he was on the field. He's a star.

I'm just going to assume you were in a coma from 2014-2016 and that is why Jaylon Smith is no where to be seen on your list.

I hope you are well recovered from whatever your serious condition was. You missed out on a beast.

 

[IrishLion]

LB - Tranquil
LB - Te'o
LB - JOK

When you don't see 'Jaylon Smith' on the list

 

[greyhammer90]

Your All-BK team, both sides of the ball. Go. If y'all screw up the O-line...

OT: Stanley, Mike M.
OG: Nelson, Z. Martin (yeah I know, but I'd put him here)
OC: N. Martin
TE: Eifert/Rudolph
WR 1: Mike Floyd
WR 2: Will Fuller
WR 3: Chase Claypool
RB 1: Theo Riddick
RB 2: Josh Addams
QB: Book

DT: Tillary/Nix (Rotate some of the SDEs in here if you are running 2 DTs)
DE: Tuitt/Day/Kareem/Lewis-Moore rotating
DE: Lynch/Okwara/Hayes Rotating
MLB: Teo
MLB: 1a Tranquill/1b Coney
OLB: Jaylon
OLB: Owusu
CB: Love/Blanton/Russell(?)
S: Smith/Hamilton (based on early returns)

That offense is disgusting. Running lanes for days.

 

[greyhammer90]

Also I'd like to pose my own debate question:

Which incoming freshman do you think has the biggest impact on the 2020 season? I will have to say Chris Tyree, only because I think he has the most unique skill set at his position compared to the other guys in the RB room we currently have.

But I think you could make an argument that Jordan Johnson or Michael Mayer could breakout year 1 too. I just think guys like Kevin Austin, Braden Lenzy, Javon McKinley and Bennett Skowronek will block Johnson from meaningful minutes and impact. At TE, I am extremely high on Tommy Tremble as our gadget TE who will move all over, and he proved last year he is no slouch in the blocking department, and Brock Wright will be tough to beat out on the depth chart.

Tyree for me as well. I think Johnson will have to earn his reps as a full WR, and learning WR at the college level is tough. RB can also be tough but I think the coaches will be more willing to create situations centered around "give Tyree the ball"