Scientism

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This is reaching Mount Everest levels of cringe <a href="https://t.co/nlp60gAwOV">pic.twitter.com/nlp60gAwOV</a></p>— Yeyo (@YeyoZa) <a href="https://twitter.com/YeyoZa/status/856560743814180865">April 24, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

zelezo vlk

Well-known member
Messages
18,009
Reaction score
5,047
I came in expecting a reaction to Bill Nye's thing. I was not disappointed.
 

ACamp1900

Counting my ‘bet against ND’ winnings
Messages
48,944
Reaction score
11,225
bb71ccfa1317d7becddad090ab41a4ee.gif
 

NorthDakota

Grandson of Loomis
Messages
15,693
Reaction score
5,993
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This is reaching Mount Everest levels of cringe <a href="https://t.co/nlp60gAwOV">pic.twitter.com/nlp60gAwOV</a></p>— Yeyo (@YeyoZa) <a href="https://twitter.com/YeyoZa/status/856560743814180865">April 24, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

What the hell
 

NDohio

Well-known member
Messages
5,869
Reaction score
3,060
Sometimes I don't even recognize the world we live in...
 

ulukinatme

Carr for QB 2025!
Messages
31,509
Reaction score
17,369
Bill Nye....how far you've fallen.

The video, I just...I....wow.
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
I feel guilty for polluting Cacky's beautiful thread with this nonsense. We need a new thread for mocking scientism.
 

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
"With Lots of Schmear"

That's the motto Connor's family banner.
 

ACamp1900

Counting my ‘bet against ND’ winnings
Messages
48,944
Reaction score
11,225
Does this mean I have to scrap the video link to the recent dialogue on "The View" that I have saved for next week?????
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126

I meant no disrespect, Cacky! Was trying to keep this nonsense out your thread. Should probably change the title, though. Had to come up with one before I could move the relevant posts, but creativity failed me.
 

NDRock

Well-known member
Messages
7,489
Reaction score
5,448
That was just terrible. Would have been tolerable if the chick was hot and half naked (as would most things in life).
 

irishog77

NOT SINBAD's NEPHEW
Messages
7,441
Reaction score
2,206
Sometimes I don't even recognize the world we live in...
This

Bill Nye....how far you've fallen.

The video, I just...I....wow.

This

Dude, Bill Nye sucks these days.

This

......yeh, this didn't belong here .... this is politics or ... something.

This

That was just terrible. Would have been tolerable if the chick was hot and half naked (as would most things in life).

And obviously this.
 

Meatloaf

Well-known member
Messages
2,058
Reaction score
951
Injecting this political horseshit into science is why climate change deniers exist.
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
I meant no disrespect, Cacky! Was trying to keep this nonsense out your thread. Should probably change the title, though. Had to come up with one before I could move the relevant posts, but creativity failed me.

Oh no its not that..... I love Nye but this is ridiculous. I cant believe he went there with this.
 

no.1IrishFan

Well-known member
Messages
6,279
Reaction score
421
The first time I saw this I had to look away a few times. There's no need for this type of display on a show that should be about promoting science. I have, and will be a Bill Nye fan, but he goes too far here.
 

ulukinatme

Carr for QB 2025!
Messages
31,509
Reaction score
17,369
Wait, I get it now! We're all talking about Bill Nye after this little episode. It was all part of his plan...no bad publicity and all that.
 

no.1IrishFan

Well-known member
Messages
6,279
Reaction score
421
I think it should also be added that I don't know of any other prominent science figures who are trying to push this issue in the name of science. I feel like the thread title may be misleading simply because of who is presenting it. I don't feel like this has anything to do with evidence based scientific conclusions, just a misused platform to push his personal political viewpoint.
 
Last edited:

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
I think it should also be added that I don't know of any other prominent science figures who are trying to push this issue in the name of science. I feel like the thread title may be misleading simply because of who is presenting it. I don't feel like this has anything to do with evidence based scientific conclusions, just a misused platform to push his political viewpoint.

NDT is infamous for it. And there's lots of similar nonsense surrounding the March for Science. I'm a big fan of the empirical method myself, but it's important to recognize its limitations. I think the biggest threat to science isn't from young earth creationists (a group whose national political relevance is self-marginalizing daily) or climate change skeptics in Congress (who would simply find another flimsy pretense for continuing the status quo if forced to reckon honestly with the research), but those who seek to lay a political burden on the empirical method that it simply can't bear, and a liberal ideology which corrupts it internally through funding mechanisms and externally by undermining the concept of objective truth.

So that's why I named this thread "Scientism". And content critical of this nonsense is primarily what I'll be sharing here (as opposed to Cack's thread, which is reserved for real science). But I'm open to other suggestions for retitling it.
 

no.1IrishFan

Well-known member
Messages
6,279
Reaction score
421
NDT is infamous for it. And there's lots of similar nonsense surrounding the March for Science. I'm a big fan of the empirical method myself, but it's important to recognize its limitations. I think the biggest threat to science isn't from young earth creationists (a group whose national political relevance is self-marginalizing daily) or climate change skeptics in Congress (who would simply find another flimsy pretense for continuing the status quo if forced to reckon honestly with the research), but those who seek to lay a burden on the empirical method that it simply can't bear, and a liberal ideology which corrupts it internally through funding mechanisms and externally by undermining the concept of objective truth.

So that's why I named this thread "Scientism". And content critical of this nonsense is primarily what I'll be sharing here (as opposed to Cack's thread, which is reserved for real science). But I'm open to other suggestions for retitling it.

I'm right there with ya. I think the title is fine. Perhaps it caught me off guard being that the only connection between the subject, and scientific evidence supporting the subject, was Nye. It seemed more of a personal position than anything science has to offer on homosexuality/gender fluidity etc. I definitely see how people could view this as a position supported by science simply from where the message is coming from.
 

NDgradstudent

Banned
Messages
2,414
Reaction score
165
So for purposes of this thread scientism is the claim that science alone is the source of knowledge? I assume that is what we mean.

Certainly I have examples of this in action. My cousin-in-law is a Catholic and libertarian biologist, and good guy to hang out with. He recently told me that he is against abortion but also thinks it should be legal because "science can't prove" whether or not a fetus has moral status.

Now, this is true: science can tell us when a fetus develops this or that property, but it cannot tell you whether or not this or that property is necessary or sufficient for moral status. The problem is that science also cannot tell you whether or not an infant, teenager, or adult has moral status.

The scientific method does not answer moral questions as such. There are good reasons for thinking abortion should be legal (although I do not finally find them compelling) but this was a particularly bad reason. I was pretty surprised that a trained scientist would say something like that, but unfortunately this is a common view.
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
I just wish "real science" was as entertaining as the Kardashians or Southern Charm.
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
So for purposes of this thread scientism is the claim that science alone is the source of knowledge? I assume that is what we mean.

Certainly I have examples of this in action. My cousin-in-law is a Catholic and libertarian biologist, and good guy to hang out with. He recently told me that he is against abortion but also thinks it should be legal because "science can't prove" whether or not a fetus has moral status.

Now, this is true: science can tell us when a fetus develops this or that property, but it cannot tell you whether or not this or that property is necessary or sufficient for moral status. The problem is that science also cannot tell you whether or not an infant, teenager, or adult has moral status.

The scientific method does not answer moral questions as such. There are good reasons for thinking abortion should be legal (although I do not finally find them compelling) but this was a particularly bad reason. I was pretty surprised that a trained scientist would say something like that, but unfortunately this is a common view.
This isnt really true. Morality can be understood and percieved ( patrially at least if not near completely) through the biological, anthropological and sociological lenses just as well or equally so to metaphysics and religion. It just has a limit wheras the ethereal aspects of religious belief that cant be proven, only posited, dont.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1998/04/the-biological-basis-of-morality/377087/

https://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/98apr/bio2.htm
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-biology/

I also contend that science is a type of philosophy just as theology is however ehen a philosophy moves into the realm of being supported by actual observed and accumulated evidences it moves into the realm of being a science. All sciences were at one time Philosophies
 
Last edited:

Old Man Mike

Fast as Lightning!
Messages
8,965
Reaction score
6,453
As usual in IE threads, things are more complicated than can be addressed on a message board (I'm talking about the definition of Scientism, not Bill Nye and whatever nonsense he fell into there.)

"Scientism" is WAY more of a negative influence upon culture and the general (poorly-educated) population than merely stating that Science is the only valid approach to Truth. First of all, an argument can be made that there isn't even a "thing" called "science". Ex. Geology is not "a Science." Geology is someone's attempt to learn about the things of the Earth (and a bunch of other stuff related to that) in some kind of organized way. A person may choose to find out those things by applying a certain study approach to the work. If that study approach is defined by the rigors of "the scientific method" then the geology learned by that person might be termed scientific geology --- etc etc. But that is WAY too esoteric to be brought up here.

Taking it a step down: "Scientism" is not just being of the opinion that the scientific method is the only path to truth (reductionists could argue that, if they were that stupidly restricted in their supposedly open "scientific minds" --- which restrictiveness violates the method's first principles) but the damage done by Scientism comes when pseudo-scientists of the reductionist type (ex. Sagan, Gould, Dawkins, deGrasse-Tyson) make absolutist statements about what is real, what is not, and what cannot and should not even be researched --- all with superior down-the-nose smirks on their faces.

Scientistic pseudoscientists (it is ironic that they call everyone with intellectual openness and flexibility "pseudoscientists" when it is they who are the violators) succeed at their cultural damage because "Science" has gotten installed as the Truth Sayer, and these guys become Pop "scientists" to grab that bully pulpit. And it IS a bully pulpit. I should know. When I was an entering college student, my brother and I saw a UFO fairly close up. Several others did too. Once I became a PhD sciences teacher at WMU, I quietly pursued this old interest --- you had to do this quietly or you were asking for close-minded a$$hole-produced trouble. I've spent 40 years as one of the world's leading researchers and writers on this subject and watched many of my friends having to dodge the Scientistic "bullets" in this and other forbidden fields.

People interested in Religion and Spirituality shouldn't join in the smirking. We are all in the same cultural foxhole. As a Catholic plus someone researching a forbidden subject, I'm occupying a particularly targetable one. At 76 I say Who Cares and Shove It, but younger colleagues and friends wanting to keep their jobs cannot be quite so blunt.

Scientism rules the American classroom almost without accountability. This is not to say that every counter-idea is correct. The vast majority are pure bunk once honestly analyzed. But there are true mysteries out there on which we have only the flimsiest of handles, and none whatever ("scientifically speaking") on those involving the Spiritual (with a couple of important exceptions.)

..... big topic. I refuse to write the Book.
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
Interesting. Whiskeyjack you may find this worthy of a read. OMM i would like your thoughts too:

https://singularityhub.com/2017/04/24/science-has-outgrown-the-human-mind-and-its-limited-capacities/
The duty of man who investigates the writings of scientists, if learning the truth is his goal, is to make himself an enemy of all that he reads and … attack it from every side. He should also suspect himself as he performs his critical examination of it, so that he may avoid falling into either prejudice or leniency.

– Ibn al-Haytham (965-1040 CE)

Science is in the midst of a data crisis. Last year, there were more than 1.2 million new papers published in the biomedical sciences alone, bringing the total number of peer-reviewed biomedical papers to over 26 million. However, the average scientist reads only about 250 papers a year. Meanwhile, the quality of the scientific literature has been in decline. Some recent studies found that the majority of biomedical papers were irreproducible.

The twin challenges of too much quantity and too little quality are rooted in the finite neurological capacity of the human mind. Scientists are deriving hypotheses from a smaller and smaller fraction of our collective knowledge and consequently, more and more, asking the wrong questions, or asking ones that have already been answered. Also, human creativity seems to depend increasingly on the stochasticity of previous experiences – particular life events that allow a researcher to notice something others do not. Although chance has always been a factor in scientific discovery, it is currently playing a much larger role than it should.

One promising strategy to overcome the current crisis is to integrate machines and artificial intelligence in the scientific process. Machines have greater memory and higher computational capacity than the human brain. Automation of the scientific process could greatly increase the rate of discovery. It could even begin another scientific revolution. That huge possibility hinges on an equally huge question: can scientific discovery really be automated?

I believe it can, using an approach that we have known about for centuries. The answer to this question can be found in the work of Sir Francis Bacon, the 17th-century English philosopher and a key progenitor of modern science.

The first reiterations of the scientific method can be traced back many centuries earlier to Muslim thinkers such as Ibn al-Haytham, who emphasised both empiricism and experimentation. However, it was Bacon who first formalised the scientific method and made it a subject of study. In his book Novum Organum (1620), he proposed a model for discovery that is still known as the Baconian method. He argued against syllogistic logic for scientific synthesis, which he considered to be unreliable. Instead, he proposed an approach in which relevant observations about a specific phenomenon are systematically collected, tabulated and objectively analysed using inductive logic to generate generalisable ideas. In his view, truth could be uncovered only when the mind is free from incomplete (and hence false) axioms.

The Baconian method attempted to remove logical bias from the process of observation and conceptualisation, by delineating the steps of scientific synthesis and optimising each one separately. Bacon’s vision was to leverage a community of observers to collect vast amounts of information about nature and tabulate it into a central record accessible to inductive analysis. In Novum Organum, he wrote: ‘Empiricists are like ants; they accumulate and use. Rationalists spin webs like spiders. The best method is that of the bee; it is somewhere in between, taking existing material and using it.’

The Baconian method is rarely used today. It proved too laborious and extravagantly expensive; its technological applications were unclear. However, at the time the formalisation of a scientific method marked a revolutionary advance. Before it, science was metaphysical, accessible only to a few learned men, mostly of noble birth. By rejecting the authority of the ancient Greeks and delineating the steps of discovery, Bacon created a blueprint that would allow anyone, regardless of background, to become a scientist.

Bacon’s insights also revealed an important hidden truth: the discovery process is inherently algorithmic. It is the outcome of a finite number of steps that are repeated until a meaningful result is uncovered. Bacon explicitly used the word ‘machine’ in describing his method. His scientific algorithm has three essential components: first, observations have to be collected and integrated into the total corpus of knowledge. Second, the new observations are used to generate new hypotheses. Third, the hypotheses are tested through carefully designed experiments.

If science is algorithmic, then it must have the potential for automation. This futuristic dream has eluded information and computer scientists for decades, in large part because the three main steps of scientific discovery occupy different planes. Observation is sensual; hypothesis-generation is mental; and experimentation is mechanical. Automating the scientific process will require the effective incorporation of machines in each step, and in all three feeding into each other without friction. Nobody has yet figured out how to do that.

Experimentation has seen the most substantial recent progress. For example, the pharmaceutical industry commonly uses automated high-throughput platforms for drug design. Startups such as Transcriptic and Emerald Cloud Lab, both in California, are building systems to automate almost every physical task that biomedical scientists do. Scientists can submit their experiments online, where they are converted to code and fed into robotic platforms that carry out a battery of biological experiments. These solutions are most relevant to disciplines that require intensive experimentation, such as molecular biology and chemical engineering, but analogous methods can be applied in other data-intensive fields, and even extended to theoretical disciplines.

Automated hypothesis-generation is less advanced, but the work of Don Swanson in the 1980s provided an important step forward. He demonstrated the existence of hidden links between unrelated ideas in the scientific literature; using a simple deductive logical framework, he could connect papers from various fields with no citation overlap. In this way, Swanson was able to hypothesize a novel link between dietary fish oil and Reynaud’s Syndrome without conducting any experiments or being an expert in either field. Other, more recent approaches, such as those of Andrey Rzhetsky at the University of Chicago and Albert-László Barabási at Northeastern University, rely on mathematical modeling and graph theory. They incorporate large datasets, in which knowledge is projected as a network, where nodes are concepts and links are relationships between them. Novel hypotheses would show up as undiscovered links between nodes.

The most challenging step in the automation process is how to collect reliable scientific observations on a large scale. There is currently no central data bank that holds humanity’s total scientific knowledge on an observational level. Natural language-processing has advanced to the point at which it can automatically extract not only relationships but also context from scientific papers. However, major scientific publishers have placed severe restrictions on text-mining. More important, the text of papers is biased towards the scientist’s interpretations (or misconceptions), and it contains synthesised complex concepts and methodologies that are difficult to extract and quantify.

Nevertheless, recent advances in computing and networked databases make the Baconian method practical for the first time in history. And even before scientific discovery can be automated, embracing Bacon’s approach could prove valuable at a time when pure reductionism is reaching the edge of its usefulness.

Human minds simply cannot reconstruct highly complex natural phenomena efficiently enough in the age of big data. A modern Baconian method that incorporates reductionist ideas through data-mining, but then analyses this information through inductive computational models, could transform our understanding of the natural world. Such an approach would enable us to generate novel hypotheses that have higher chances of turning out to be true, to test those hypotheses, and to fill gaps in our knowledge. It would also provide a much-needed reminder of what science is supposed to be: truth-seeking, anti-authoritarian, and limitlessly free.
 

Old Man Mike

Fast as Lightning!
Messages
8,965
Reaction score
6,453
Boy! What a Mare's Nest!

There is no way to unpack this thing in a chat-room posting. I'll give a few thoughts, but PLEASE don't take them to the bank --- maybe they'll serve as thought-stimulus and therefore add something to the Universe rather than (as this article mainly does) subtract from it.

So WITH HUMILITY .................
1). the Mediaeval lead-off comment is over-the-top (making oneself "an enemy" is precisely NOT the open-minded non-emotional psychology of the scientist, let alone this guy's cartoon concept of a Baconian scientist) yet, if you were already a student of the philosophy of science and gave the guy poetic license, you could say that the exaggeration makes a point (i.e. question everything --- Descartes would have said "doubt" --- including your own biases at each step of the investigation.)

2). author says that there is today too much data for the scientist to synthesize --- sure, a no brainer, but this has been true for quite some time. Author ascribes this to limitations of the human mind --- well, OK, but in emphasizing this the author demonstrates that he doesn't really comprehend the totality of the "method." The scientific method is never in the end about the individual human mind, but about the collective of human minds researching each subject. Whereas all individuals are supposed to behave properly (objectively, data-oriented --- "save the data not the theory") towards their work, because of their limitations (both quantitatively, emotionally, and due to the accidents of how their life proceeds to present only bits of the relevant data to them), individuals will not get it perfectly right. The Method attempts to moderate this incompleteness and bias and error by dumping all the data/conclusions into an intellectual stew-pot wherein it is scrutinized, retested, re-presented with polish or severe alterations --- think of it as a non-individualized distillation process, where many flawed individual contributions go in, and few survive intact, but those that do are (at least in part) cleansed of individual error. This public or, better, community element requires things to be published with full disclosure of how the data was achieved and how it was analyzed. Anything which does not meet this requirement is not "science."

3). This guy's inclusion of comments about the increasing errors in medical papers is an unhelpful intrusion having nothing to do with the point he tries to make, and shows his own idiosyncratic bias (he features such topics in his writings) that he would include this distracting irrelevancy.

4). He cites "chance" in a scientist's training and life (presenting that scientist with certain data and thoughts, but not all data and thoughts) as creating a deplorable individuality in science. This viewpoint is almost too much --- laughable in the extreme. It is precisely THROUGH that individuality that unique approaches to issues are created, and then it is through the aforementioned (and ignored by the author) "communal distillation" process that idiosyncratic theories and approaches are evaluated.

5). So then he launches into his solution ---> the very old concept of Baconian Robotic "scientific" discovery. We've analyzed that idea for 400 years, and, so far, it's nearly sterile. BUT we're being "scientific" here, so we give this guy a hearing. What he has to say contains no new insight at all. The theory has the non-scientific "romantic" intuition that somehow robotic collection of data will not only discover patterns in masses of data, but will somehow leap beyond those patterns to the realm of Causes --- i.e, find not only "Laws" of behavior, but defendable Reasons WHY that behavior occurred. These two "products" of the science (actually "intellectual discovery/scholarship" is more inclusive and better) are on quite different grounds when it comes to mental agility, and one would assume artificial "mental agility" as well --- you can intuit whether the AI world can even do "causes" at a sophisticated level at all.

Just for fun, not "proving" anything, but .... let's free up a few Baconian Robots to blunder into the world (remember they MUST "blunder" randomly for every "direction" given contains biases programmed by us), and we wait and see what they come up with. My guess would be nothing over centuries of time, but let's say they're really good (and lucky.) The robots come back. A few of them have fixated on "Red". They share their separate fixations. One notes that The Sun is sort of Red-Orange. One notes that cherries are Red. One notes that many apples are Red. Another, Tomatoes. Electrons spinning furiously they hit upon the idea that the Sun must transmit Red somehow to these things because they don't happen when the Sun is not strongly shining. And this is true every season. It is a Law of Nature, therefore, that The Sun can transmit Red and some but not all things receive it. Another robot then contributes the observations that if humans stay out in the Sun when it is strong, THEY turn red. Most do anyway. Once more Red is transferable. Then another robot remarks that it has been studying Pies. If you make Pies out of Cherries and Apples, even Tomatoes, and human individuals eat a whole lot of them, those humans begin looking tired and sweaty and, well, red. Not only that, but, the robot notes, The Sun is Round. Cherries and Tomatoes are Round. Even Apples are sort of Round. Pies are Round. And ... here's the clincher ... if humans eat a lot of Pies, THEY become Rounder themselves. The Baconian Robots have discovered a very "fruitful" (ouch) line of research into the Laws and Causes of Nature.

What's the point? Random directionless blundering about is not only NOT how Science progresses, but would produce a nearly uncountable number of false leads, taking centuries to track down and discard --- and, in a "pure" objective robot universe, what could be a purely objective criterion for discarding anything?

We make progress using both "halves" of our brains --- i.e. both styles of thinking: analytical AND synthetic, logic AND intuition. AI MIGHT be good (with our pre-programmed meddling) at collection, pattern-search, and looking for repetition, but intuitive "jumping" to a hypothesis to direct new angles of research?

6). With all of the above and several library shelves more, it is my opinion that the author's "three different planes" of mental activity misses reality by a wide margin. Then he adds to his restricted view of things (exactly what he's claiming to avoid) by saying that the data-gathering is by far the biggest hurdle --- wow. Precisely wrong and out-of-touch with everything real in a scientist's life as a scientist.

7). one last, as usual, incomplete remark: if you are around real scientists it becomes quickly clear that the group is composed of two wildly different types. The VAST majority of these people are "brick-makers." They take other persons' big thoughts/successful hypotheses and do some simple add-on to the edges of their work. Often they continue to make bricks all their career, never having a real creative contribution. The other rarer types are, of course, the Architects. These guys imagine, test, and rough out the Big Ideas which drive the fields. The author of the current article somehow thinks that the Architects will be readily replaced by AI brick-makers. In my view, IF AI really did take-over the science literature, it would be the Dark Ages rather than The Renaissance.

... again, very large topic, merely skimmed here. Take my views with Sodium Chloride.
 
Top