American Sniper: "Pro-war bias?"

[gkIrish]

In my opinion, Chris Kyle was a sick man who enjoyed killing and fabricated many ridiculous stories in his autobiography, and there should not be a movie praising him. The movie should have been focused on PTSD of veterans and not him killing Iraqis.

1...2....10

 

[IrishinSyria]

I have not seen the Kyle movie nor have I read his books. I might watch it if it comes out on netflix or something, but doubt I'll go to the theater for it. I have mixed feelings about the debate about both Kyle the person and the movie. The question of whether or not Kyle was good, bad, or something in-between is kind of confusing to me. His job was to be a tool of American policy, and as far as I can tell he was a good tool. There's no shame in that, and it's something our country relies on- so in a very abstract sense, Kyle did defend freedom. However, we should not glamorize what his job was. He killed people. Ended human life. Necessary, but evil.

I am for the movie to the extent that it a: tells a good story and b: highlights the challenges that go with service. I am against the movie in that it a: glamorizes a man for his "kill count" and b: treats his victim's deaths as significant only because of their impact on his own psyche. It is impossible to overemphasize the "killing PEOPLE" aspect of military force.

Anyway, this article seems particularly relevant. I don't agree with the whole thing, but I do agree that the growing disconnect between the military and civilians is a dangerous thing for our democracy. People like Sarah Palin who are wrapping themselves in the banner of supporting our heroic troops without knowing the first thing about what it is actually like to serve do nothing but widen the gap between the public and the military.

 

[DonnieNarco]

Just another typical ungrateful American dud. Take a number.

I am not ungrateful. I think it's admirable that people give up their lives for this. However I do not think that joining the army automatically makes someone a good person, and I wish they were only going to war when it was absolutely necessary.

 

[NCND]

In my opinion, Chris Kyle was a sick man who enjoyed killing and fabricated many ridiculous stories in his autobiography, and there should not be a movie praising him. The movie should have been focused on PTSD of veterans and not him killing Iraqis.

A "sick" man? Wow. GTFOH

 

[woolybug25]

Bold 1: Then Buster should clarify himself. Based on the thread topic and his first sentence, it sounded like he was sick of these movies, then he went to Newt and Palin.

Bold 2: I've had useful and in depth conversations with several posters on here, as much as we may disagree (hat tip GoIrish41). In every conversation I have my own opinions supported by facts.

Exhausting? Haha. That's a you problem. No one forces you to read what I write or even respond.

Bold 1: He was pretty clear. You misunderstood, not the other way around. Your lack of reading comprehension shouldn't be our problem.

Bold 2: I have never seen it. Only the same worn out talking points.

re: the "you problem", I am not surprised that you believe that we should just have to live with your knee jerk comments with little to no actual comprehension of our comments. I don't believe you understand what true dialogue actually is... it's when two people SHARE thoughts. That means you have to actually read, hear and/or understand what the other person is saying. You skip that part on a routine basis and your only response to that is... "that's a you problem"?

Nice... thanks for proving my point.

 

[GoldenDomer]

I am not ungrateful. I think it's admirable that people give up their lives for this. However I do not think that joining the army automatically makes someone a good person, and I wish they were only going to war when it was absolutely necessary.

He is a NAVY Seal, the elite of the elite. He didn't "join the army". Once again, dud.

 

[Buster Bluth]

What is pro war bias? I know none of the people whom I served with enjoyed going to war, or enjoyed people trying to kill them, or enjoyed being placed in a position where they had to make the decision to take actions to end somebodys life.

To be fair, it sorta seems like Chris Kyle personally had a pro-war bias...

"When you sign up, you sign up because you want to go to war. Or at least the SEALS, we do. We don’t sign up to go be the best just so we can sit at home, walk around the bars and say, Hey, look at me, I’ve got a trident on. I’m a SEAL. We do it because we want to go to war."

American Sniper Chris Kyle True Story Interview

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

]Learn to read. [/B]



And yet when it mattered Newt Gingrich was pretty vocal:

2001: "If we don't use this as the moment to replace Saddam after we replace the Taliban, we are setting the stage for disaster."

2002: "We should not wait until Saddam has the full capacity to create terror around the planet and is able to blackmail with nuclear weapons. Waiting is not an option... The only issue is whether the risks are greater now or whether the risks will be greater later. We learned with Adolf Hitler that moving early would have been less expensive and less dangerous and would have saved millions of lives."

Tell me, how much appreciation should the Kyle family and all the other military families have for comments like that?

OK tough guy. Since you weren't clear in your statement, it was up to interpretation. I'm glad I interpreted it incorrectly. At first glance it certainly looked like you were sick of these movies. That wasn't the case. Fair enough.

As for Newt and his Iraq comments, he wasn't an elected official then either and didn't hit the green light in 2003. Are you bothered by Hilary and Kerry's comments in 2002 and 2003 with Iraq, or just Newt because he has an R behind his name? I won't speak for the Kyle family, but my guess is the same question could be asked of Hilary and Kerry, who both supported the Iraq War.

I've got zero problem with people like Newt, Palin, and several other US service members who have come out in defense of Chris Kyle after disrespectful comments from people like Michael Moore and Donnie Narco.

 

[DonnieNarco]

He is a NAVY Seal, the elite of the elite. He didn't "join the army". Once again, dud.

My bad. Military.

 

[GoldenDomer]

My bad. Military.

 

[DonnieNarco]

OK tough guy. Since you weren't clear in your statement, it was up to interpretation. I'm glad I interpreted it incorrectly. At first glance it certainly looked like you were sick of these movies. That wasn't the case. Fair enough.

As for Newt and his Iraq comments, he wasn't an elected official then either and didn't hit the green light in 2003. Are you bothered by Hilary and Kerry's comments in 2002 and 2003 with Iraq, or just Newt because he has an R behind his name? I won't speak for the Kyle family, but my guess is the same question could be asked of Hilary and Kerry, who both supported the Iraq War.

I've got zero problem with people like Newt, Palin, and several other US service members who have come out in defense of Chris Kyle after disrespectful comments from people like Michael Moore and Donnie Narco.

I have judged his character based on his actions and adjusted my opinions based on them. I am treating him like the regular person he is. Like the regular person everyone is.

 

[woolybug25]

OK tough guy. Since you weren't clear in your statement, it was up to interpretation. I'm glad I interpreted it incorrectly. At first glance it certainly looked like you were sick of these movies. That wasn't the case. Fair enough.

It was not up to interpretation, he wasn't talking in Yoda-speak. He was clear and concise and you simply didn't give a shit enough to read what he wrote. You instead immediately and incorrectly framed his comment to meet your narrative.

Simple as that. But Buster is the "tough guy" because you misunderstood him and attacked him for a point he wasn't even trying to make. Yep... Buster is the "tough guy". lol

 

[gkIrish]

I have judged his character based on his actions and adjusted my opinions based on them. I am treating him like the regular person he is. Like the regular person everyone is.

If everyone was a regular person there would be no such thing as the term "regular"

#MindBlower

 

[DonnieNarco]

If everyone was a regular person there would be no such thing as the term "regular"

#MindBlower

It's a distinction that has to be made because people are treated like superhumans due to their profession or words. Every person is, in fact, a person. Everyone has flaws. Everyone has opinions. Everyone exists in a gray area where no one, not a single person, is entirely good or bad. Everyone is just a person.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Bold 1: He was pretty clear. You misunderstood, not the other way around. Your lack of reading comprehension shouldn't be our problem.

Bold 2: I have never seen it. Only the same worn out talking points.

re: the "you problem", I am not surprised that you believe that we should just have to live with your knee jerk comments with little to no actual comprehension of our comments. I don't believe you understand what true dialogue actually is... it's when two people SHARE thoughts. That means you have to actually read, hear and/or understand what the other person is saying. You skip that part on a routine basis and your only response to that is... "that's a you problem"?

Nice... thanks for proving my point.

Bold 1: Agree to disagree. Didn't know reading comprehension could be determined hundreds of miles away.

Bold 2: Don't care if you've never seen it. Read more. And I certainly don't give a damn about the opinion of a guy I'll never meet on a Notre Dame forum haha.

Blah blah blah...I enjoy the debates on here as much as the next guy. I've said it before and will say it again: I'm glad we have these discussions on here, because out there not enough people are having them or don't care (especially in my generation).

Have a good one, Wooly!

 

[#1rish]

LOL I'm done dealing with this DonnieNarco clown. You are on your own sad, sad planet. I hope you don't procreate.

 

[irish4ever]

Guys like Chris Kyle deserve to be anointed.

Agreed! Fatazz Michael Moore is a freakin' leftist moron. The b@st@rd grew up in Michigan, so he's probably a freakin' scUM fan! Another reason to hate the prick!

 

[GoldenDomer]

It's a distinction that has to be made because people are treated like superhumans due to their profession or words. Every person is, in fact, a person. Everyone has flaws. Everyone has opinions. Everyone exists in a gray area where no one, not a single person, is entirely good or bad. Everyone is just a person.

Chris Kyle is on a higher pedestal than you, and for good reason, you get that right?


Like you're eating Twinkies watching weird conspiracy TV shows, he's putting his life in danger to protect Marines.

 

[IrishinSyria]

To be fair, it sorta seems like Chris Kyle personally had a pro-war bias...



American Sniper Chris Kyle True Story Interview

It's entirely possible to both want to go to war and not be pro-war. I would have spent my entire time in the Army deployed if they would have let me. I enlisted knowing I was going to war. At a conceptual level, I have issues with the wars in Iraq an Afghanistan on every level from the moral to the practical. My general belief that war is a bad thing and that these specific wars were worse was not in conflict with my desire to go to war and my belief that service was a virtue in itself.

I find the whole debate around the movie ridiculous.

 

[DonnieNarco]

Chris Kyle is on a higher pedestal than you, and for good reason, you get that right?


Like you're eating Twinkies watching weird conspiracy TV shows, he's putting his life in danger to protect Marines.

Chris Kyle is put on a higher pedestal, and I get it. It does not mean he can do whatever he wants with impunity and his actions have to be looked at as good.

I do not eat Twinkies and watch much television. I also do not lie in published works, tell made up stories, or take pleasure from killing.

 

[ginman]

To be fair, it sorta seems like Chris Kyle personally had a pro-war bias...



American Sniper Chris Kyle True Story Interview

That said, I was glad that if we were going to have a war, I'd rather than it happen when I was serving rather than 2 months after I got out of the military. I felt a responsibility to the people I trained and served with and I'd rather it be me than somebody else. I hate war and I would love for there to be no wars. Howevere, when I see or hear of images of Americans beheaded or bodies mutilated or displayed, I still feel some of that "pro-war", wish I could have been there to protect feeling. If that is what pro war means.

Additionally. if there is a chance you will be deployed you better be aggressive or you or others will die. How well does a scared football team play. The stakes are bigger in real life!

 

[Buster Bluth]

OK tough guy. Since you weren't clear in your statement, it was up to interpretation. I'm glad I interpreted it incorrectly. At first glance it certainly looked like you were sick of these movies. That wasn't the case. Fair enough.

I guess..

As for Newt and his Iraq comments, he wasn't an elected official then either and didn't hit the green light in 2003. Are you bothered by Hilary and Kerry's comments in 2002 and 2003 with Iraq, or just Newt because he has an R behind his name? I won't speak for the Kyle family, but my guess is the same question could be asked of Hilary and Kerry, who both supported the Iraq War.

Stop making everything some pointless Right vs Left exercise.

I've got zero problem with people like Newt, Palin, and several other US service members who have come out in defense of Chris Kyle after disrespectful comments from people like Michael Moore and Donnie Narco.

Well you should have a problem with people who adamantly supported the Iraq War and threw their support behind it. Don't kid yourself, regardless of Gingrich leaving office in 1999 he was a twenty-year Congressman and former Speaker of the House. His voice mattered, and continues to matter, to the base and so using scare tactics and comparing Saddam Hussein to Adolf Hitler is nothing short of deplorable. So I'll ask again: how much appreciation should military families have for his comments?

 

[greyhammer90]

American Sniper only has a 73% on Rotten Tomatoes but a 90% audience approval... why? Because there are a lot of people in that industry that HATE anything that glorifies people they consider "murderers" ... and yes, that's how they feel about people like Chris Kyle.

I've read a shockingly large number of reviews that spend an inordinate amount of time talking about Kyle and the book instead of the movie. They all say roughly the same thing... that because Kyle was, per his autobiography, a devout Christian who believed the Muslim enemy combatants to be "evil" that he's a murder/psychopath/idiot/bad person and therefor fuck everything about him and by proxy the movie gets two thumbs down.

I haven't seen the movie or read the book. I have no knowledge of who is right or wrong here in terms of critics. I'm just saying what I've seen some people say. And I also know that everyone I know and respect who has seen the movie or read the book has an opposite opinion from those people.

To be fair, the person you just described does sound like a psychopath.

 

[tussin]

To be fair, the person you just described does sound like a psychopath.

how so?

 

[IrishinSyria]

Chris Kyle is put on a higher pedestal, and I get it. It does not mean he can do whatever he wants with impunity and his actions have to be looked at as good.

I do not eat Twinkies and watch much television. I also do not lie in published works, tell made up stories, or take pleasure from killing.

In order to know that, you would have to have killed.

I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying about Kyle, though not to the degree you're saying it. He made himself a public figure by choosing to publish a book, and as a public figure he should be open to criticism. That being said, there are probably limits to that. As long as Kyle followed the ROE, the ultimate responsibility for the deaths of the people he killed lies on the policy makers who sent him there and the public who voted them in and/or enabled them by paying taxes.

Every American has blood on their hands from the Iraq and Afghan wars, which is ok, but I think it is fairly critical that the country acknowledge that instead of pretending that wars are fought by heroes and villains in a vacuum.

 

[woolybug25]

how so?

On face value (not saying that Kyle was this, by any means), saying that a guy killed a bunch of people and justified it simply because he thought they were evil for no other reason other than their ____ religion, sounds pretty psychotic.

 

[Irishbounty28]

I also have a problem with what Kyle said about Iraqis in the book. One, he said “I don’t shoot people with Korans. I’d like to, but I don’t.” Second, saying he didn't give "a flying fuck" about Iraqis shows how he saw the world black and white, which it is not. He had a very simplistic view on it, and I find it disturbing when someone who had so much power felt like that.

I can tell you obiously haven't been to war so I am going to try and tread lightly here. War is gruesome and horrific. A place where one instant you are chatting with a friend, and the next you are placing pressure on his chest because shrapnel from an IED ripped through his lung. You obviously have never held the hand of a dying friend who was supposed to return home in only a short months time and witness the birth of his daughter. You see, WAR IS BLACK AND WHITE, you either live or you die. It isn't the real world, and having a real world mentality will get yourself and your men killed. War is pretty simple, you either kill or be killed. Its all pretty self explanatory out there, and if you had been there you would have witnessed it for yourself. As far as what happens to an individuals mindset once in theater, thats another story. It takes a certain type of person to go towards the sound of gunfire. Not a crazy person, or someone with a death wish, but someone who has come to the realization that death is out of their control.

To be blunt, you should find it disturbing, because it is. The whole notion of going somewhere you know you may be killed and will have to kill someone is disturbing. What do think someone in this situations outlook should be? Should you not have a hate and disdain for your enemy? How would you go about controlling the rage that comes with seeing a friend die?

I only say these things to assure you by no means is Chris Kyle a bad person, and yes he was okay with killing people. He was okay with killing people because that was required of him, and it saved other servicemembers lives. I can tell you that he wanted to kill every single enemy combatant that posed a threat to our boys, because I felt the same when I was there. Having a protectors mindset, you don't enjoy the killing as much as knowing that that dirtbag can't take the life of anymore American's.

 

[irishog77]

What's up with Wooly trying to get a 3-way going between Leppy, Buster, and himself?

 

[DonnieNarco]

In order to know that, you would have to have killed.

Every American has blood on their hands from the Iraq and Afghan wars, which is ok, but I think it is fairly critical that the country acknowledge that instead of pretending that wars are fought by heroes and villains in a vacuum.

I agree and I pray that I will never have to take a life.

 

[woolybug25]

I can tell you obiously haven't been to war so I am going to try and tread lightly here. War is gruesome and horrific. A place where one instant you are chatting with a friend, and the next you are placing pressure on his chest because shrapnel from an IED ripped through his lung. You obviously have never held the hand of a dying friend who was supposed to return home in only a short months time and witness the birth of his daughter. You see, WAR IS BLACK AND WHITE, you either live or you die. It isn't the real world, and having a real world mentality will get yourself and your men killed. War is pretty simple, you either kill or be killed. Its all pretty self explanatory out there, and if you had been there you would have witnessed it for yourself. As far as what happens to an individuals mindset once in theater, thats another story. It takes a certain type of person to go towards the sound of gunfire. Not a crazy person, or someone with a death wish, but someone who has come to the realization that death is out of their control.

To be blunt, you should find it disturbing, because it is. The whole notion of going somewhere you know you may be killed and will have to kill someone is disturbing. What do think someone in this situations outlook should be? Should you not have a hate and disdain for your enemy? How would you go about controlling the rage that comes with seeing a friend die?

I only say these things to assure you by no means is Chris Kyle a bad person, and yes he was okay with killing people. He was okay with killing people because that was required of him, and it saved other servicemembers lives. I can tell you that he wanted to kill every single enemy combatant that posed a threat to our boys, because I felt the same when I was there. Having a protectors mindset, you don't enjoy the killing as much as knowing that that dirtbag can't take the life of anymore American's.

This is an incredibly insightful post.

Reps.