High-School Senior Controversial WSJ Article

[Ndaccountant]

I would say that is part of the problem. Another part is that kids don't care about learning, the importance of education is downplayed more and more, and kids have no initiative to learn and or be productive. Its a general apathy of being a human in a global society. "Everything I need to know is on the internet or tv." She pretty much says all of this in her letter. Even to the point of her parents not giving a crap about her lifestyle.

The question is, why don't the parents care?

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

This, gentlemen, is the problem with America and the youth:

School Cancels Honors Night to Avoid Hurt Feelings




Kids don't know HOW to deal with adversity because they're sheltered from it by the PC crowd.

Everyone is not created equal and there are winners and losers. When we can accept that FACT and use it as a tool to motivate, then we'll be better off.

My Godson's school district in suburban Pittsburgh did something similar. They completely did away with Academic Award Ceremonies of any kind so they didn't "hurt anyone's feelings" or "make anyone feel bad."

Not doing these kids any favors.

 

[Rack Em]

The question is, why don't the parents care?

Million Dollar Question that would solve so many of the problems in public education. Teachers have students for several hours a day, parents have then for the rest.

 

[irishpat183]

I would say that is part of the problem. Another part is that kids don't care about learning, the importance of education is downplayed more and more, and kids have no initiative to learn and or be productive. Its a general apathy of being a human in a global society. "Everything I need to know is on the internet or tv." She pretty much says all of this in her letter. Even to the point of her parents not giving a crap about her lifestyle.

But of course! And what contributes to this?? Parents.

Likely, parents that are more concerned about being friends and not hurting feelings because of media and social pressure.

Parents CAN'T raise their kids anymore because it's not "cool" to do so. You're supposed to let them run wild like the kids on MTV and let them "express" themselves.

 

[irishpat183]

Million Dollar Question that would solve so many of the problems in public education. Teachers have students for several hours a day, parents have then for the rest.

What about the Texas liberal judge that stated that "Parents give up their rights when they drop their kids off at school"??

See, this is the problem. Let parents raise their kids as they deem fit.


God forbid you punish your child only to have them say something at school and all of a sudden you're in the hot seat and they want to take away your kids.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Quit with the "self-hating" crap. You're the worst kind of "white people". The ones that try to "identify" with minorities by bashing his own race using phrases like "I know what you're going through". You, nor I, couldn't possibly know what a black man has gone through. Or hispanic. Or whatever...So cut the act.

No idea where the "self hating" thing comes from. Definitely have no ill feelings toward myself. I love me some me. I don't like stupid people, though. And white people complaining about how much easier minorities have it are the worst kind of stupid.

I like how you tell me to "cut the act" of saying that "I know what you have gone through," when I've actually never said that.

And saying that "white people" have nothing to complain about is ignorant. How do you know what people have gone through? Just because someone doesn't have the same struggles, doesn't mean they don't struggle. It's just different.

For example....a buddy of mine, middle class white guy, lost BOTH his parents in a car accident his senior year in high school. Then, his sister killed herself 1 month later. He had NO ONE to help him through that tough time in his life(other than his buddies).....Despite all that, he graduated from college. Now, I think that would qualify as something to complain about. However...not ONE peep outta him about the obvious disadvantage.

I don't even know where to start unpacking this, but it seems like you think that acknowledging the opportunity gap between white people and minorities is to deny that any white person could struggle or any minority could be from privilege.

I wanted to make this point to gkIrish earlier, too: nobody is arguing that white people can't have circumstances that ALSO warrant sympathy and even special consideration. Anyone that went trough what your friend went through can surely write a compelling entrance essay that will greatly increase their chances of getting accepted. But those types of special circumstances can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. Minorities were held back in this country by centuries of institutional discrimination, so it seems fitting to me that our attempts to make amends be likewise institutional in nature.

Without writing a dissertation about this, I'll just have to trust that you'll think honestly about what I'm saying here. I think your friend would get special consideration based on his circumstances, but please acknowledge that being poor and black is a difficult circumstance, too. It isn't wrong for that to be considered.

The point is, everyone has struggles and problems. Some worse than others. Everyone deals with adversity. It's how you react that is going to set you apart. You can use it as a crutch or motivation. Opportunity is everywhere, for all races. The only thing holding people back is their own attitudes. And that includes this young lady. Not getting into your first choice of college isn't the end of the world. But, to her credit, she used it as motivation to write this column and get noticed.

Here, we are essentially saying similar things. I agree with your point as it pertains to people who come from opportunity, but you can't just decide to overcome growing up in a community with terrible educational resources. And most blacks grow in such communities, and not by choice. That you would say that black people are victims of their own attitudes demonstrates such astonishing ignorance I'm actually amazed someone would say that publicly in 2013. Not only does it foolishly assert that an entire race of people think exactly the same, but it also disregards all of the history, sociology, psychology and economics a civilized person would have learned.

 

[GoIrish41]

The question is, why don't the parents care?

This is a great point -- one that could start a whole new debate, I'm sure.

 

[irishpat183]

No idea where the "self hating" thing comes from. Definitely have no ill feelings toward myself. I love me some me. I don't like stupid people, though. And white people complaining about how much easier minorities have it are the worst kind of stupid.

I like how you tell me to "cut the act" of saying that "I know what you have gone through," when I've actually never said that.



I don't even know where to start unpacking this, but it seems like you think that acknowledging the opportunity gap between white people and minorities is to deny that any white person could struggle or any minority could be from privilege.

I wanted to make this point to gkIrish earlier, too: nobody is arguing that white people can't have circumstances that ALSO warrant sympathy and even special consideration. Anyone that went trough what your friend went through can surely write a compelling entrance essay that will greatly increase their chances of getting accepted. But those types of special circumstances can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. Minorities were held back in this country by centuries of institutional discrimination, so it seems fitting to me that our attempts to make amends be likewise institutional in nature.

Without writing a dissertation about this, I'll just have to trust that you'll think honestly about what I'm saying here. I think your friend would get special consideration based on his circumstances, but please acknowledge that being poor and black is a difficult circumstance, too. It isn't wrong for that to be considered.



Here, we are essentially saying similar things. I agree with your point as it pertains to people who come from opportunity, but you can't just decide to overcome growing up in a community with terrible educational resources. And most blacks grow in such communities, and not by choice. That you would say that black people are victims of their own attitudes demonstrates such astonishing ignorance I'm actually amazed someone would say that publicly in 2013. Not only does it foolishly assert that an entire race of people think exactly the same, but it also disregards all of the history, sociology, psychology and economics a civilized person would have learned.

All people are victims of their own attitudes. That is not specific to black people, my friend.

Why is that wrong to say? Especially when there are COUNTLESS success stories of kids all over the country in terrible situtions that have pulled their asses outta the fire and made something of themselves.

No, it's people with YOUR attitude that is holding a country and an entire race back. "Well, their is just no way you could've succeeded with a family life like that....."

Talk about putting someone behind. Telling them they're doomed to fail because of circumstances is the worst thing you can do.


And don't get me started on this garbage: "Minorities were held back in this country by centuries of institutional discrimination, so it seems fitting to me that our attempts to make amends be likewise institutional in nature. "

Punishing those that had nothing to do with that discrimination and rewarding those that likely didn't experience any of it, makes zero sense.



All that being said, I respect your opinion. I'm just of a different way of thinking.

 

[irishpat183]

This is a great point -- one that could start a whole new debate, I'm sure.

I think we can all agree on lackluster parenting these days.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

Yeah America fixed the race problem when it did that one thing...

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Why is that wrong to say? Especially when there are COUNTLESS success stories of kids all over the country in terrible situtions that have pulled their asses outta the fire and made something of themselves.

Handwaving. Referencing some vague number of success stories is meaningless without the context of how many failed. There's lots of objective statistical evidence out there on this subject. An African-American male born to a single mother in the inner-city has very little chance of succeeding. Some make it out, yes, but the vast majority don't. Unless you're comfortable making some very racist assumptions, such data is pretty compelling evidence that nurture > nature.

Talk about putting someone behind. Telling them they're doomed to fail because of circumstances is the worst thing you can do.

On the flipside, this is also true and very important. So while most of the available evidence strongly indicates that the circumstances of one's birth are far more relevant to one's prospects for success than one's innate talents and character, the psychological effects of that message can be very harmful. People will naturally strive or slack depending on what's expected of them. If our government policies send a strong message that Minority X isn't expected to make anything of himself, then it becomes self-defeating.

That's a challenge that most liberal policy wonks frequently ignore, and I'm not sure what the answer is. Maybe transfer payments predicated upon either maintaining gainful employment or actively searching for such?

And as with many of our current political issues, the real problem here is class (opportunity correlates much more strongly with wealth than race). But most people seem content bickering about relatively insignificant sideshows like the culture wars, racism, identity politics, etc. This thread has devolved in a predictably depressing manner.

 

[SaltyND24]

All people are victims of their own attitudes. That is not specific to black people, my friend.

Why is that wrong to say? Especially when there are COUNTLESS success stories of kids all over the country in terrible situtions that have pulled their asses outta the fire and made something of themselves.

No, it's people with YOUR attitude that is holding a country and an entire race back. "Well, their is just no way you could've succeeded with a family life like that....."

Talk about putting someone behind. Telling them they're doomed to fail because of circumstances is the worst thing you can do.


And don't get me started on this garbage: "Minorities were held back in this country by centuries of institutional discrimination, so it seems fitting to me that our attempts to make amends be likewise institutional in nature. "

Punishing those that had nothing to do with that discrimination and rewarding those that likely didn't experience any of it, makes zero sense.



All that being said, I respect your opinion. I'm just of a different way of thinking.

Damn...after all these years...i'm thinking I'm moving forward, but I'm just being held back!

"The sins of a father...."

 

[Ndaccountant]

Handwaving. Referencing some vague number of success stories is meaningless without the context of how many failed. There's lots of objective statistical evidence out there on this subject. An African-American male born to a single mother in the inner-city has very little chance of succeeding. Some make it out, yes, but the vast majority don't. Unless you're comfortable making some very racist assumptions, such data is pretty compelling evidence that nurture > nature.



On the flipside, this is also true and very important. So while most of the available evidence strongly indicates that the circumstances of one's birth are far more relevant to one's prospects for success than one's innate talents and character, the psychological effects of that message can be very harmful. People will naturally strive or slack depending on what's expected of them. If our government policies send a strong message that Minority X isn't expected to make anything of himself, then it becomes self-defeating.

That's a challenge that most liberal policy wonks frequently ignore, and I'm not sure what the answer is. Maybe transfer payments predicated upon either maintaining gainful employment or actively searching for such?

And as with many of our current political issues, the real problem here is class (opportunity correlates much more strongly with wealth than race). But most people seem content bickering about relatively insignificant sideshows like the culture wars, racism, identity politics, etc. This thread has devolved in a predictably depressing manner.

The question I have is why do single mothers exist more in one race than the other? We can point to the statistics all we want, but until we truly understand the why, we cannot possibly come up with an action plan to address it. We can try things and hope they work, but until we address the real issue, things will only get better at the margin.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The question I have is why do single mothers exist more in one race than the other? We can point to the statistics all we want, but until we truly understand the why, we cannot possibly come up with an action plan to address it. We can try things and hope they work, but until we address the real issue, things will only get better at the margin.

It's mostly due to poverty and our penal system:

• African Americans, on average, are poorer than most other racial minorities due to past institutional discrimination.
• The culture of poverty, for a variety of reasons, leads to criminal behavior.
• Our draconian (3-strike laws, mandatory sentencing guidelines) and misguided (drug prohibition) criminal laws incarcerate a hugely disproportionate % of African American males.
• The American penal code is geared mostly toward incapacitation and retribution instead of rehabilitation, so recidivism rates are high.
• African Americans, like most everyone else, generally prefer to live around people like themselves.

Therefore, the family structure of most African American communities is a mess. The men are frequently incarcerated, and even upon release, their prospects for employment are poor. So there are lots of single moms, few examples of stable relationships, and the kids have no positive male role models.

 

[ACamp1900]

I think we can all agree on lackluster parenting these days.

I disagree.........

 

[Cackalacky]

It's mostly due to poverty and our penal system:

• African Americans, on average, are poorer than most other racial minorities due to past institutional discrimination.
• The culture of poverty, for a variety of reasons, leads to criminal behavior.
• Our draconian (3-strike laws, mandatory sentencing guidelines) and misguided (drug prohibition) criminal laws incarcerate a hugely disproportionate % of African American males.
• The American penal code is geared mostly toward incapacitation and retribution instead of rehabilitation, so recidivism rates are high.
• African Americans, like most everyone else, generally prefer to live around people like themselves.

Therefore, the family structure of most African American communities is a mess. The men are frequently incarcerated, and even upon release, their prospects for employment are poor. So there are lots of single moms, few examples of stable relationships, and the kids have no positive male role models.

Then you can throw a privatized penal system on top of that in many areas incentivizing incarceration for minor things, like say.....in Arizona for example....

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Then you can throw a privatized penal system on top of that in many areas incentivizing incarceration for minor things, like say.....in Arizona for example....

Always follow the money.

 

[Ndaccountant]

It's mostly due to poverty and our penal system:

• African Americans, on average, are poorer than most other racial minorities due to past institutional discrimination.
• The culture of poverty, for a variety of reasons, leads to criminal behavior.
• Our draconian (3-strike laws, mandatory sentencing guidelines) and misguided (drug prohibition) criminal laws incarcerate a hugely disproportionate % of African American males.
• The American penal code is geared mostly toward incapacitation and retribution instead of rehabilitation, so recidivism rates are high.
• African Americans, like most everyone else, generally prefer to live around people like themselves.

Therefore, the family structure of most African American communities is a mess. The men are frequently incarcerated, and even upon release, their prospects for employment are poor. So there are lots of single moms, few examples of stable relationships, and the kids have no positive male role models.

I find it interesting that the whole singe female problem didn't begin until the 1960's. This is a much more recent issue and one that has grown rapidly. We can point to the jails across America, past discrimination and all other factors and they do have merit. But, what changed since the 1950's for African American's? Why did the problem only show up in the last 50 years?

"As late as 1950, black women nationwide were more likely to be married than white women, and only 9 percent of black families with children were headed by a single parent. In the 1950s, black children had a 52 percent chance of living with both their biological parents until age seventeen; by the 1980s those odds had dwindled to a mere 6 percent. In 1959, only 2 percent of black children were reared in households in which the mother never married; today that figure approaches 60 percent."

"In mid-1960s America, the nation's out-of-wedlock birth rate (which stood at 7.7 percent at the time) began a rapid and relentless climb across all demographic lines, a climb that would continue unabated until 1994, when the Welfare Reform Act put the brakes on that trend. Today the overall American illegitimacy rate is about 33 percent (26 percent for whites). For blacks, it hovers at near 70 percent—approximately three times the level of black illegitimacy that existed when the War on Poverty began in 1964."

Breakdown of the Black Family, and Its Consequences - Discover the Networks

 

[Cackalacky]

And for anyone confused by my last few posts, I agree with Sam Seaborn on education.
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ND_a8rA67VA?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

And Bill Hicks on being a human.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fZkhR8suCF4?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

How bad do you want it?

 

[autry_denson]

I find it interesting that the whole singe female problem didn't begin until the 1960's. This is a much more recent issue and one that has grown rapidly. We can point to the jails across America, past discrimination and all other factors and they do have merit. But, what changed since the 1950's for African American's? Why did the problem only show up in the last 50 years?

"As late as 1950, black women nationwide were more likely to be married than white women, and only 9 percent of black families with children were headed by a single parent. In the 1950s, black children had a 52 percent chance of living with both their biological parents until age seventeen; by the 1980s those odds had dwindled to a mere 6 percent. In 1959, only 2 percent of black children were reared in households in which the mother never married; today that figure approaches 60 percent."

"In mid-1960s America, the nation's out-of-wedlock birth rate (which stood at 7.7 percent at the time) began a rapid and relentless climb across all demographic lines, a climb that would continue unabated until 1994, when the Welfare Reform Act put the brakes on that trend. Today the overall American illegitimacy rate is about 33 percent (26 percent for whites). For blacks, it hovers at near 70 percent—approximately three times the level of black illegitimacy that existed when the War on Poverty began in 1964."

Breakdown of the Black Family, and Its Consequences - Discover the Networks

tough question about causal factors affecting family structure. really tough to link it to war on poverty - the Moynihan report described the changes in black family structure as a crisis in 1965. Since the 1960s changes in family structure have occurred for every single group, escalating most recently for the best-educated women. this is a society-wide phenomenon that is likely driven by a combination of birth control technology, norms about sexual activity, women's employment, and the decline of the old economic model of a single male breadwinner. these changes - particularly the last - hit black Americans hardest, and many have argued that the decline of employment opportunities among low-skilled men is the best explanation for racial and ethnic differences in family structure.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

tough question about causal factors affecting family structure. really tough to link it to war on poverty - the Moynihan report described the changes in black family structure as a crisis in 1965. Since the 1960s changes in family structure have occurred for every single group, escalating most recently for the best-educated women. this is a society-wide phenomenon that is likely driven by a combination of birth control technology, norms about sexual activity, women's employment, and the decline of the old economic model of a single male breadwinner. these changes - particularly the last - hit black Americans hardest, and many have argued that the decline of employment opportunities among low-skilled men is the best explanation for racial and ethnic differences in family structure.

I think this is mostly correct.

For thousands of years, the lack of effective birth control resulted in most young people marrying early, so they could have sex and effectively deal with the resulting pregnancies. The invention of birth control in the mid-1900s effectively removed that incentive to marry early (and for some people to marry at all). Couple that with the rapid advancement of women's rights since winning the right to vote, and the traditional family structure has been crumbling ever since.

Few events bode as poorly for one's future prospects than having a child out of wedlock as a teenager (and that goes for both the mother and the child). Whites, having more resources and better education on average, are better able to avoid such circumstances than blacks.

 

[Cackalacky]

tough question about causal factors affecting family structure. really tough to link it to war on poverty - the Moynihan report described the changes in black family structure as a crisis in 1965. Since the 1960s changes in family structure have occurred for every single group, escalating most recently for the best-educated women. this is a society-wide phenomenon that is likely driven by a combination of birth control technology, norms about sexual activity, women's employment, and the decline of the old economic model of a single male breadwinner. these changes - particularly the last - hit black Americans hardest, and many have argued that the decline of employment opportunities among low-skilled men is the best explanation for racial and ethnic differences in family structure.

I'm surprised the growth of family income disparity in the US overall has not been mentioned.

So even with all the things autry_dentson and Whiskey mentioned, the average family income of the bottom 90% has flatlined. There is a re-distributuion of wealth going on but it is not down.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I think this is mostly correct.

For thousands of years, the lack of effective birth control resulted in most young people marrying early, so they could have sex and effectively deal with the resulting pregnancies. The invention of birth control in the mid-1900s effectively removed that incentive to marry early (and for some people to marry at all). Couple that with the rapid advancement of women's rights since winning the right to vote, and the traditional family structure has been crumbling ever since.

Few events bode as poorly for one's future prospects than having a child out of wedlock as a teenager (and that goes for both the mother and the child). Whites, having more resources and better education on average, are better able to avoid such circumstances than blacks.

Are we supposed to take that as whites have better schools and "resources", therefore fewer whites have children out of wedlock as teenagers?

I'm near positive even public schools start sex education around 5th or 6th grade (or in kindergarten if you're in a reaaallllly liberal area), where you learn that if you have unprotected sex you might get pregnant.

 

[DSully1995]

I think this is mostly correct.

For thousands of years, the lack of effective birth control resulted in most young people marrying early, so they could have sex and effectively deal with the resulting pregnancies. The invention of birth control in the mid-1900s effectively removed that incentive to marry early (and for some people to marry at all). Couple that with the rapid advancement of women's rights since winning the right to vote, and the traditional family structure has been crumbling ever since.

Few events bode as poorly for one's future prospects than having a child out of wedlock as a teenager (and that goes for both the mother and the child). Whites, having more resources and better education on average, are better able to avoid such circumstances than blacks.[/QUOTE]

Are we supposed to take that as whites have better schools and "resources", therefore fewer whites have children out of wedlock as teenagers?

I'm near positive even public schools start sex education around 5th or 6th grade (or in kindergarten if you're in a reaaallllly liberal area), where you learn that if you have unprotected sex you might get pregnant.

Cant speak for what whiskey was meaning to say, but if your born out of wedlock your chances of having children out of wedlock are significantly higher, which would result in the cycle of single mothers. By ressources I think he just means two parents to tell them not to have sex/use birth control. Same thing with divorce rates, if your parents divorced im pretty sure you are staistically more likely to divorce

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Are we supposed to take that as whites have better schools and "resources", therefore fewer whites have children out of wedlock as teenagers?

I'm near positive even public schools start sex education around 5th or 6th grade (or in kindergarten if you're in a reaaallllly liberal area), where you learn that if you have unprotected sex you might get pregnant.

It's just my (admittedly weak) hypothesis on why illegitimacy is so much higher among blacks than whites. That disparity is shrinking as traditional marriage crumbles (for all racial groups), but it's still significant.

And as Sully pointed out, these sorts of cycles are self-perpetuating. Daughters of unwed teenage mothers are statistically way more likely to become unwed teenage mothers themselves. The mother didn't have the resources/ education/ support to avoid teenage pregnancy, so her daughter won't either.

 

[Cackalacky]

Are we supposed to take that as whites have better schools and "resources", therefore fewer whites have children out of wedlock as teenagers?

I'm near positive even public schools start sex education around 5th or 6th grade (or in kindergarten if you're in a reaaallllly liberal area), where you learn that if you have unprotected sex you might get pregnant.

False, there are only twenty or so states states where sex ed is mandated. Some only require it be medically accurate. LOL....

 

[Bubba]

False, there are only twenty or so states states where sex ed is mandated. Some only require it be medically accurate. LOL....

It Is not mandated in Alabama because they figure someone in the family will teach them about sex.

 

[GoIrish41]

False, there are only twenty or so states states where sex ed is mandated. Some only require it be medically accurate. LOL....

It is astonishing how few states that are mandated to teach sex ed have to be "medically accurate." Do the other states talk about storks and whatnot?

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

It's just my (admittedly weak) hypothesis on why illegitimacy is so much higher among blacks than whites. That disparity is shrinking as traditional marriage crumbles (for all racial groups), but it's still significant.

And as Sully pointed out, these sorts of cycles are self-perpetuating. Daughters of unwed teenage mothers are statistically way more likely to become unwed teenage mothers themselves. The mother didn't have the resources/ education/ support to avoid teenage pregnancy, so her daughter won't either.

OK, just wasn't sure where you headed with that one but I get it now.

Part B: If you are a teenager, your Mom had you out of wedlock, no Dad around, good chance you're living in a not so great situation (home, school, neighborhood), what would motivate you to have a child and live like she did? Wouldn't you want to improve your situation and make better decisions and build a better life?

On the same note, if you're the mother of that girl, wouldn't you want to teach her everything in the book from A to Z about "good decisions and bad decisions"??? Wouldn't you want to teach your child to learn from your mistakes?

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

False, there are only twenty or so states states where sex ed is mandated. Some only require it be medically accurate. LOL....

The fact that sex ed isn't mandated in those states does not mean sex ed isn't taught in those schools. Additionally...

1) Kids have google and know everything about anything.

2) Education and "resources" about sex ed can come from outside the school.

3) Sometimes, even these days, good parents sit down with kids and talk about the birds and the bees.