High-School Senior Controversial WSJ Article

Whiskeyjack

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Part B: If you are a teenager, your Mom had you out of wedlock, no Dad around, good chance you're living in a not so great situation (home, school, neighborhood), what would motivate you to have a child and live like she did? Wouldn't you want to improve your situation and make better decisions and build a better life?

I don't think it comes from a motivation to repeat the mother's mistakes (the motivation to procreate needs no explanation). It's just that many poor teenage girls don't understand the implications of teenage pregnancy, the importance of avoiding it, and their options for doing so.

On the same note, if you're the mother of that girl, wouldn't you want to teach her everything in the book from A to Z about "good decisions and bad decisions"??? Wouldn't you want to teach your child to learn from your mistakes?

That would require the mother to understand that her teenage pregnancy is the source of many of the struggles in her life. When most of the families in your community are headed by single women who had their first child as teenagers, it would take some remarkable insight and self-awareness to come to that conclusion and try to keep your own daughter from making the same mistakes everyone else is.
 

irishpat183

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It's just my (admittedly weak) hypothesis on why illegitimacy is so much higher among blacks than whites. That disparity is shrinking as traditional marriage crumbles (for all racial groups), but it's still significant.

And as Sully pointed out, these sorts of cycles are self-perpetuating. Daughters of unwed teenage mothers are statistically way more likely to become unwed teenage mothers themselves. The mother didn't have the resources/ education/ support to avoid teenage pregnancy, so her daughter won't either.

Nobody mentions this....Could it be that society is constantly glamorizing sex outta wedlock (teen mom, Jersey shore)??
 

irishpat183

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It is astonishing how few states that are mandated to teach sex ed have to be "medically accurate." Do the other states talk about storks and whatnot?

LOL....Really. That's a little scary


And for the record, Texas may not be "mandated"...but I went through sex ed in school here.

I would say that the majority of public schools teach it these days, mandatory or not.
 

IrishLax

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False, there are only twenty or so states states where sex ed is mandated. Some only require it be medically accurate. LOL....
tumblr_mj0bigDDND1ql6jblo1_500.jpg

Sorry, this infographic screams inaccuracy. What does "mandated" actually mean here? Because it is sure as hell taught in all Virginia public schools starting in elementary school. And every kid must take the classes unless their parents specifically opt them out.

What does "medically accurate" mean? That these states have a law on the books that says, precisely, that "teachings must be accurate?" I bet you'd be pretty hard pressed to find many places that are giving straight up lies/inaccuracies to kids in sex ed classes... it seems implied that if you're going to 'educate' someone you're probably not going to have lessons that state babies come from storks....

The agenda of the infographic seems to be to convince the viewer that the majority of states don't have any obligatory sex ed for kids in school... and that's simply not true.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Nobody mentions this....Could it be that society is constantly glamorizing sex outta wedlock (teen mom, Jersey shore)??

You can trace it back to the advancement of women's rights (beginning with the right to vote) and the invention of birth control. Women started working more and exerting more control over when (or if) to have kids. Those two factors have done more to undermine traditional marriage than anything else.

And it's not like those are changes that can be walked back. So now it's a question of how to proceed in a post-marital society.
 

SaltyND24

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OK, just wasn't sure where you headed with that one but I get it now.

Part B: If you are a teenager, your Mom had you out of wedlock, no Dad around, good chance you're living in a not so great situation (home, school, neighborhood), what would motivate you to have a child and live like she did? Wouldn't you want to improve your situation and make better decisions and build a better life?

On the same note, if you're the mother of that girl, wouldn't you want to teach her everything in the book from A to Z about "good decisions and bad decisions"??? Wouldn't you want to teach your child to learn from your mistakes?

I agree that the bolded question has to and should be asked, but you and I are different from the said person...We can say what we would do in a given situation, but we won't ever know. I have worked with a lot of students where I work as a tutor/sub and many of them are either pregnant or are expecting. The mindset of many of these kids is, "You did it. So you can't tell me not to do it." We are seeing a generation of kids raising kids, with no discipline and very little motivation to do much than chill...Mama can't tell them nothing, and in most of these cases, daddy isn't around. Sad story, but there is no easy fix to break the habit/mentality of a person who has lived by that their entire life
 

irishpat183

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Sorry, this infographic screams inaccuracy. What does "mandated" actually mean here? Because it is sure as hell taught in all Virginia public schools starting in elementary school. And every kid must take the classes unless their parents specifically opt them out.

What does "medically accurate" mean? That these states have a law on the books that says, precisely, that "teachings must be accurate?" I bet you'd be pretty hard pressed to find many places that are giving straight up lies/inaccuracies to kids in sex ed classes... it seems implied that if you're going to 'educate' someone you're probably not going to have lessons that state babies come from storks....

The agenda of the infographic seems to be to convince the viewer that the majority of states don't have any obligatory sex ed for kids in school... and that's simply not true.

It's a "Think Progress" ad...what did you expect? LOL
 

irishpat183

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You can trace it back to the advancement of women's rights (beginning with the right to vote) and the invention of birth control. Women started working more and exerting more control over when (or if) to have kids. Those two factors have done more to undermine traditional marriage than anything else.

And it's not like those are changes that can be walked back. So now it's a question of how to proceed in a post-marital society.

Certainly thoese are all valid points....but our attitude towards marriage (it's not "cool" to be with one person anymore) is also a huge problem.

We see it all over TV...bang as many women as possible while consuming as much booze as you can.


And we wonder why teen birthrates are high.
 

GoIrish41

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Nobody mentions this....Could it be that society is constantly glamorizing sex outta wedlock (teen mom, Jersey shore)??

My daughters used to watch a show called "The Secret Life of an American Teenager" or something like that. Every storyline was about sex. My wife and I used to be amazed at how often they said the word "sex" in a single episode. Suffice it to say, that if you were playing a drinking game in which you had to drink every time they said "sex" you would not know how the episode ended. My wife and I felt the need to sit our daughters down and talk to them about sex the first time we ever saw that show on the TV. I think Molly Ringwald from back in the day played the mom in the show.
 

irishpat183

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I agree that the bolded question has to and should be asked, but you and I are different from the said person...We can say what we would do in a given situation, but we won't ever know. I have worked with a lot of students where I work as a tutor/sub and many of them are either pregnant or are expecting. The mindset of many of these kids is, "You did it. So you can't tell me not to do it." We are seeing a generation of kids raising kids, with no discipline and very little motivation to do much than chill...Mama can't tell them nothing, and in most of these cases, daddy isn't around. Sad story, but there is no easy fix to break the habit/mentality of a person who has lived by that their entire life

Great point.


The question is, How can we reach kids, that see this lifestyle all over TV and in their parents relationship, and tell them it's the wrong way to go?
 
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Cackalacky

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Sorry, this infographic screams inaccuracy. What does "mandated" actually mean here? Because it is sure as hell taught in all Virginia public schools starting in elementary school. And every kid must take the classes unless their parents specifically opt them out.

What does "medically accurate" mean? That these states have a law on the books that says, precisely, that "teachings must be accurate?" I bet you'd be pretty hard pressed to find many places that are giving straight up lies/inaccuracies to kids in sex ed classes... it seems implied that if you're going to 'educate' someone you're probably not going to have lessons that state babies come from storks....

The agenda of the infographic seems to be to convince the viewer that the majority of states don't have any obligatory sex ed for kids in school... and that's simply not true.

Facts on American Teens’ Sources of Information About Sex
SEX EDUCATION POLICY

• Currently, 20 states and the District of Columbia mandate both sex and HIV education; one state mandates sex education alone, and another 13 states mandate HIV education.[21]

• A total of 37 states require that sex education include abstinence: Twenty-six require that abstinence be stressed, while eleven simply require that it be included as part of the instruction.[21]

• Eighteen states and the District of Columbia require that sex education programs include information on contraception; no state requires that it be stressed.[21]

• Thirteen states require that the information presented in sex education classes be medically accurate and factual.[21] However, a recent review of 13 commonly used abstinence-only curricula found that 11 had incorrect, misleading or distorted information.[22]

• Twenty-seven states and the District of Columbia require that sex education be age-appropriate.[21]

• In December 2009, Congress replaced the rigid Community-Based Abstinence Education Program with a new $114.5 million teen pregnancy prevention program to support evidence-based interventions, as well as other programs that have demonstrated promise.[23]

• In March 2010, Congress created through health care reform a five-year Personal Responsibility Education Program (PREP). Its stated purpose is to educate adolescents on both abstinence and contraception and to prepare them for adulthood by teaching such subjects as healthy relationships, financial literacy, parent-child communication and decision-making.[23]

• Through another provision in the health care reform legislation, Congress also renewed the Title V abstinence-only program for five years. This funding stream makes available $50 million annually for grants to the states to promote sexual abstinence outside of marriage.[23]
 

arahop

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This girl has a lot to learn about life. Perhaps she will learn it in community college with the rest of the kids who didn't apply themselves in high school but believe they want a degree. She comes off as bitter, far more so than most high school seniors have enough time to become.

She seems to know more about life than about 99% of kid's in high school that I've ever met. Life for us regulars who graduated from small community schools will be just fine. It's more about networking than where you go to college any more. Emotional intelligence gets people a long way. People that base their lives around where they went to school from when they were 18-22, and have met their life long goals then. Good for them.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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Certainly thoese are all valid points....but our attitude towards marriage (it's not "cool" to be with one person anymore) is also a huge problem.

Is this really the case? Even young elementary school kids feel the need to have a "boyfriend" or "girlfriend", and promiscuous girls are still disparaged as sluts. Monogamy is still the norm; it's just that technological advancement and social change have robbed traditional marriage of it's most compelling advantages.

We see it all over TV...bang as many women as possible while consuming as much booze as you can.

I'm always suspicious of claims that our current society is somehow especially lewd or immoral. Humans have the same appetites today that we've always had; technology and social change have simply allowed us to indulge them more frequently and with less risk.

And we wonder why teen birthrates are high.

Go back far enough and the teen birthrate was close to 100%. All girls were married off at puberty and immediately started producing children. Those were the conditions under which traditional marriage evolved, and it worked very well for a long time. Not so much anymore.
 
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Cackalacky

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Look it up....Let's just say it's a site with an agenda...

oh my...... the Gutmacher Inststitute does not have an agenda other than analyzing sexual health and reporduction. The fact "Think Progress" used their data.... Maybe they like good sources.
 

GoIrish41

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She seems to know more about life than about 99% of kid's in high school that I've ever met. Life for us regulars who graduated from small community schools will be just fine. It's more about networking than where you go to college any more. Emotional intelligence gets people a long way.

Well, you are from Tennessee

I've got nothing against small community schools. I graduated from the world renown Christopher Newport University in Virginia after receiving a degree from Millersville State University. In between those two degrees I was in the Navy. And you are right about networking, that time in the Navy landed me a job with the federal government, where I have been ever since.
 

Irish Houstonian

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False, there are only twenty or so states states where sex ed is mandated. Some only require it be medically accurate. LOL....
tumblr_mj0bigDDND1ql6jblo1_500.jpg

If the middle school teachers I know here in Houston aren't teaching "sex-ed" when they give their reproductive lectures, then they have A LOT of explainin' to do...
 

Redbar

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thank you.

Inequality has always been organized by categories, mainly b/c it's easier to organize coalitions and distribute resources when individuals are clearly marked into groups. the relevant categories shift, but the pattern has always been the same.

Race has become less relevant as a category than it was in the 1950s, but it is still enormously important in America. This categorical inequality works in favor of whites relative to nonwhites in almost every way, from childhood to adulthood. It is not perfect - meaning there are some black and hispanic kids who are extremely advantaged, and lots of poor disadvantaged whites. But it works at a system-level - systems like the schools, the criminal justice system, and the labor market consistently act to put whites in advantaged positions relative to blacks thru networks, resources, opportunities, and sanctions.

In recognition of this, we have implemented small-scale, often superficial policies that attempt to mitigate the pattern of systematic disadvantage experienced by nonwhites (I'm being general here, as the circumstance of different groups and their histories in the US are entirely different). Aff action is an example of such an attempt. It is not perfectly efficient, and there are lots of examples of people getting an edge who don't need it, and people who deserve an edge but don't get it. But categorical inequality or policy is never perfectly efficient.

There are two bases for opposing it. One is to deny that blacks or hispanics are at a disadvantage relative to whites in a wide range of systems in our society. To those making this argument I would just suggest that you read more. I didn't fully get how this works until I started reading a tremendous amount of rigorous research on it. Approach the research with an open mind.
The second basis for opposing it is that it is not a great system to counteract persistent categorical inequalities. I have more sympathy for this argument. It is not efficient at all, it leads to cases of individuals who haven't been disadvantaged getting a boost in the admissions or hiring process, and it leads to some very deserving people getting skipped over for reasons that, on a surface level, seem seriously unfair.

For those who oppose this particular mechanism of mitigating categorical inequality, a serious question: What should replace it? i.e. if we acknowledge that inequality is typically organized along categories, and we acknowledge that race remains an independent and important category, then what system-level changes would you make to mitigate race-based inequality?

Beautiful example here. Opportunity was here for this person b/c her sister was an editor at WSJ. She did nothing to distinguish herself throughout her life, by her own admission, and then drew on her contacts to get an article published in the WSJ. This is how systems of inequality work. And then people give her credit about her accomplishment, without understanding how her accomplishment was possible b/c of her advantaged position.

Some opportunity is available for everyone. But opportunities are constrained for some groups, enhanced for others. There's not much point in continuing with the debate if this basic point is denied, even when we have crystal clear evidence of it in the article itself.

In a lot of threads people state their ideas and someone debates that idea or a part of the idea and that central issue is lost in the back and forth. I was just blown away by these two posts and really thought they deserved a bump or a re-read, just curious to hear people's thoughts on this really well thought out analysis. Reps Autry.
 

GoIrish41

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In a lot of threads people state their ideas and someone debates that idea or a part of the idea and that central issue is lost in the back and forth. I was just blown away by these two posts and really thought they deserved a bump or a re-read, just curious to hear people's thoughts on this really well thought out analysis. Reps Autry.

agreed. my rep button won't work for him anymore today.
 

arahop

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Well, you are from Tennessee

I've got nothing against small community schools. I graduated from the world renown Christopher Newport University in Virginia after receiving a degree from Millersville State University. In between those two degrees I was in the Navy. And you are right about networking, that time in the Navy landed me a job with the federal government, where I have been ever since.

After further reading, sister works for WSJ. Get that networking going at a young age. From time to time I still get mad I didn't get into ND. :)
 

autry_denson

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In a lot of threads people state their ideas and someone debates that idea or a part of the idea and that central issue is lost in the back and forth. I was just blown away by these two posts and really thought they deserved a bump or a re-read, just curious to hear people's thoughts on this really well thought out analysis. Reps Autry.

cheers man. i can't believe how many times i've clicked on this thread today, but interesting sh*t to talk about.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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My daughters used to watch a show called "The Secret Life of an American Teenager" or something like that. Every storyline was about sex. My wife and I used to be amazed at how often they said the word "sex" in a single episode. Suffice it to say, that if you were playing a drinking game in which you had to drink every time they said "sex" you would not know how the episode ended. My wife and I felt the need to sit our daughters down and talk to them about sex the first time we ever saw that show on the TV. I think Molly Ringwald from back in the day played the mom in the show.

Reps for being an involved parent.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Just another example...AA does the exact opposite of its intent.

"I am a product of affirmative action," she said. "I am the perfect affirmative action baby. I am Puerto Rican, born and raised in the south Bronx. My test scores were not comparable to my colleagues at Princeton and Yale. Not so far off so that I wasn't able to succeed at those institutions."

She said that using "traditional numbers" from test scores, "it would have been highly questionable if I would have been accepted."

--- Justice Sotomayor, June 11, 2009
 

GoIrish41

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Just another example...AA does the exact opposite of its intent.

"I am a product of affirmative action," she said. "I am the perfect affirmative action baby. I am Puerto Rican, born and raised in the south Bronx. My test scores were not comparable to my colleagues at Princeton and Yale. Not so far off so that I wasn't able to succeed at those institutions."

She said that using "traditional numbers" from test scores, "it would have been highly questionable if I would have been accepted."

--- Justice Sotomayor, June 11, 2009

How does that suggest AA does the exact opposite of its intent. It sent a student from meager means and a minority race to Princeton and Yale. Because of that education, she went on to become a Supreme Court justice.

I've heard Justice Sotomayor speak on this topic many times. She describes going to these institutions a timid student, intimidated by her surroundings who grew in confidence when she realized she was just as smart, just as capable, and just as deserving as anyone else to be there. That confidence is what she said pushed her through her studies and later her career.

I'm not sure you have an understanding of what AA's intent is, but your example is a case of AA working like gangbusters.
 
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Ndaccountant

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How does that suggest AA does the exact opposite of its intent. It sent a student from meager means and a minority race to Princeton and Yale. Because of that education, she went on to become a Supreme Court justice. That, to me, seems like a case of AA working like gangbusters.

I've heard Justice Sotomayor speak on this topic many times. She describes going to these institutions a timid student, intimidated by her surroundings who grew in confidence when she realized she was just as smart, just as capable, and just as deserving as anyone else to be there. That confidence is what she said pushed her through her studies and later her career.

I'm not sure you have an understanding of what AA's intent is, but your example is a case of AA working like gangbusters.

Yea, I am not sure where he was going with that. If anything, I would use this article as a basis as to why AA is not having the intended results in college admissions.

The Unraveling of Affirmative Action - WSJ.com
 

Polish Leppy 22

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How does that suggest AA does the exact opposite of its intent. It sent a student from meager means and a minority race to Princeton and Yale. Because of that education, she went on to become a Supreme Court justice. That, to me, seems like a case of AA working like gangbusters.

I've heard Justice Sotomayor speak on this topic many times. She describes going to these institutions a timid student, intimidated by her surroundings who grew in confidence when she realized she was just as smart, just as capable, and just as deserving as anyone else to be there. That confidence is what she said pushed her through her studies and later her career.

I'm not sure you have an understanding of what AA's intent is, but your example is a case of AA working like gangbusters.

This wasn't a criticism of her but of AA and college admissions. AA was designed to bring more fairness and equality.

If her scores were admittedly lower than peers and she was accepted, we can conclude that not only was she given preferential treatment due to her race, we can assume others with stronger credentials were denied. I don't see the fairness in that process.

I didn't say she wasn't capable (she obviously was), wasn't intelligent (she is), or doesn't deserve to be where she is.
 

Ndaccountant

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This wasn't a criticism of her but of AA and college admissions. AA was designed to bring more fairness and equality.

If her scores were admittedly lower than peers and she was accepted, we can conclude that not only was she given preferential treatment due to her race, we can assume others with stronger credentials were denied. I don't see the fairness in that process.

I didn't say she wasn't capable (she obviously was), wasn't intelligent (she is), or doesn't deserve to be where she is.

AA was never about fairness in admissions, it was about propping up minorities and women so that they could compete in the long run. The idea was that if more college opportunity was given, it would lead to generational improvements. We can argue whether or not generational improvements have/will happen. But, she is obviosuly a poster child for why AA is good. She was able to overcome her disadvantaged background.

I don't think anyone would argue that AA was/is fair to white males and Asians. Since, any preferential treatment given to one group will have an equal and opposite treatmeant for those not getting the benefits.
 

irishpat183

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Is this really the case? Even young elementary school kids feel the need to have a "boyfriend" or "girlfriend", and promiscuous girls are still disparaged as sluts. Monogamy is still the norm; it's just that technological advancement and social change have robbed traditional marriage of it's most compelling advantages.



I'm always suspicious of claims that our current society is somehow especially lewd or immoral. Humans have the same appetites today that we've always had; technology and social change have simply allowed us to indulge them more frequently and with less risk.



Go back far enough and the teen birthrate was close to 100%. All girls were married off at puberty and immediately started producing children. Those were the conditions under which traditional marriage evolved, and it worked very well for a long time. Not so much anymore.




Its incredible that someone doesn't see all that going on around them in the media and on TV and how it's changed. I'm 31 years old and even I have noticed the change in what TV gets away with these days.

Reality shows are, quite possibly, one of the worst things to happen to our youth. Is it any wonder that kids behave like little a$$holes these days? It's FAR worse than it was when I was growing up.

It sounds like you're either ignorning this, or making an excuse and labeling it as "progress". Which is absurd.

The destruction of family and values is not progress. Even if it seems to be "the norm" these days.
 
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