High-School Senior Controversial WSJ Article

[PraetorianND]

Exactly. College doesn't equal "educated".

Ask any starving artist or english major who can't find a job.


Kids are majoring in more worthless degrees now more than ever.

I think this comment is funny because "educated" doesn't equal "employable." So if I asked a starving artist, they would definitely say they are educated, but perhaps not employable.

English is a great major. I won't argue with you that an English degree isn't the most door-opening major ever, but it's far from worthless.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Narrow? Haha ok. If you had kids you'd want them to go to college for 18th Century Literature, Philosophy, Anthropology, and whatever else.

If I had kids I'd want them in IT, Finance/ Accounting, Healthcare, or Business. That's not narrow minded. That's having knowledge of the job market and investing in studying to prepare for those jobs in demand.

A class or two here or there in the arts or humanities won't hurt at all, but majoring in those areas these days, for the most part, leads to disappointment and massive debt.

 

[PraetorianND]

Narrow? Haha ok. If you had kids you'd want them to go to college for 18th Century Literature, Philosophy, Anthropology, and whatever else.

If I had kids I'd want them in IT, Finance/ Accounting, Healthcare, or Business. That's not narrow minded. That's having knowledge of the job market and investing in studying to prepare for those jobs in demand.

A class or two here or there in the arts or humanities won't hurt at all, but majoring in those areas these days, for the most part, leads to disappointment and massive debt.

Hah.... This is a funny comment. How can you equate majoring in a certain field with life disappointment? Some of the most unhappy people are in the medical field, legal field, accounting field, etc etc.

My best friend is a cop and likes his job WAY more than I like mine as an attorney. He has 0 college and I have 7 years of college in the majors you are listing above (accounting and law).

You are assuming that a prestigious career equates to satisfaction which is entirely untrue.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

I think the "disappointment" is that most kids -- rightly or wrongly -- think that a college degree will lead them to a "good job". That's just not necessarily the case anymore.

 

[irishpat183]

Exactly. This level of disconnection is something I will never understand.

It's not that people can't be happy...but the numbers prove that Art majors just don't get hired or make any money.

Great! Be happy and paint. Or study art. Or whatever.


But when I see that same idiot standing outside an investment firm "fighting the man" because they don't make jack....it's their own damn fault.

 

[irishpat183]

I think the "disappointment" is that most kids -- rightly or wrongly -- think that a college degree will lead them to a "good job". That's just not necessarily the case anymore.

Yep.

 

[PraetorianND]

So maybe the answer is some kind of program explaining the career tracks for certain majors and the salary expectation. Also, maybe schools should supply a state of the profession report where kids can get an idea of how difficult it is to find a job in a particular area and make education decisions based on that.

I don't think that a kid majoring in English because he likes English is a bad thing. However, an expectation of a guaranteed job and great salary should be tempered with some actual information on those professions (majors) produced by the departments.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

^Sounds like a great idea. Although you might have to fight the Humanities and lower-performing dept's on releasing that data, because they'd be concerned it would turn away students. (Less students = less jobs).

 

[PraetorianND]

^Sounds like a great idea. Although you might have to fight the Humanities and lower-performing dept's on releasing that data, because they'd be concerned it would turn away students. (fewer students = fewer jobs).

True and fixed.

You should have considered English as a major!

 

[Cackalacky]

It's not that people can't be happy...but the numbers prove that Art majors just don't get hired or make any money.

Great! Be happy and paint. Or study art. Or whatever.


But when I see that same idiot standing outside an investment firm "fighting the man" because they don't make jack....it's their own damn fault.

In what world do you see angry art majors protesting for jobs.... The art majors I know work for museums, studios, graphic arts, computer arts, video game development....I just don't know what you guys are seeing. I know far more technically educated people in the unemployment line that I do liberal arts people. Companies don't want educated people period right now. A local company fired three engineers (2 of which are my friends) only to hire five people out of high school to do fieldwork in a highly technical field of work. There is absolutely no way to correlate unemployment with or without a degree to happiness and worth to society. None. The value is in the eye of the beholder (obviously by the last few posts). My best friend is a music major, is one of the happiest people I know, makes **** for money, but is a king in the community.

 

[IrishLax]

The problem isn't people wanting to be artists or writers or what have you.

It's untalented people with no conviction getting a Bachelors of Arts because society tells them they 'have to' go to college and they have no interest in science/math so they take the 'easy' route.

 

[PraetorianND]

The problem isn't people wanting to be artists or writers or what have you.

It's untalented people with no conviction getting a Bachelors of Arts because society tells them they 'have to' go to college and they have no interest in science/math so they take the 'easy' route.

I agree with this completely. I wouldn't mind college getting de-emphasized in favor of specialty (vocational) schools. Of course this is unlikely to happen and if anything is trending the other way with the adoption of online education.

 

[Cackalacky]

The problem isn't people wanting to be artists or writers or what have you.

It's untalented people with no conviction getting a Bachelors of Arts because society tells them they 'have to' go to college and they have no interest in science/math so they take the 'easy' route.

You say its not the artists or writers, then go on to say that a BA is the easy route and they feel they "have to go to college." Once again I fail to see how artists and humanities get lumped in with the easy route or being unmotivated, or worthless.... I don't get it. A human is a human. For any of you who have children, how much is your child worth? What is its value? It does not do anything but suck up your resources and money. Why have it at all?

 

[PraetorianND]

Exactly. That way, the MOST passionate about these professions will pursue it. Not some kid that just wants a degree.

I think this goes back to what we were talking about earlier though. It's tough to deemphasize college when parents are encouraging their kids to go to college and get certain degrees that they may not be passionate about. Obviously, as a parent, you want your kid to get the best shot at a job, but telling him to major in something because of job prospects rather than passion isn't a good idea and leads to exactly this problem.

I also think part of the problem is the perception of success. Part of how Americans perceive success is by level of education which leads to this issue. Again, this goes back to the discussion earlier about "disappointment," earning power, ROI, etc. Telling kids to major in certain stuff because it is the best ROI (or go to a certain school) doesn't necessarily correlate to happiness or authentic success.

Pressure to earn more, get more education, major in certain things, etc, etc etc is changing everything; in my opinion these expectations and pressures are changing the education system for the worse.

Parents need to learn to be proud of their children despite what they major in, how much money they make, or if they are working at Starbucks or for Microsoft.

 

[Cackalacky]

Exactly. That way, the MOST passionate about these professions will pursue it. Not some kid that just wants a degree.

I disagree. I wish everyone knows what I know about science, space, physics, math, and engineering, and I wish I knew a lot more about economics, art, other cultures. Knowledge is power and no one should be shunted away from it.

 

[ACamp1900]

Even as an educator, I believe we have to get off this "School is for everyone and everyone must go to college" kick. There are many paths that lead to happiness and/or prosperity for many different people and not all of them include an education.

 

[IrishLax]

You say its not the artists or writers, then go on to say that a BA is the easy route and they feel they "have to go to college." Once again I fail to see how artists and humanities get lumped in with the easy route or being unmotivated, or worthless.... I don't get it. A human is a human. For any of you who have children, how much is your child worth? What is its value? It does not do anything but suck up your resources and money. Why have it at all?

I'm frankly confused by your response... so I'm not really sure how to respond. Are you saying that for people who hate math/science/studying that a sociology degree isn't "easier" than chemical engineering? Where did I say the humanities are worthless? What does this have to do with a human being a human? Let me try rephrasing my original point, and then you can pick out by # which parts you don't like.

1. If you are actually driven to be an anthropologist, artist, musician, writer, etc. then more power to you. These people aren't the problem... if you are set on being/doing something and have a realistic amount of aptitude you're going to make it with enough effort. And these people are 100% necessary for society as a whole to be what it is a progress.

2. The problem is that there are a bunch of kids who:
2A. Don't like school and have no interest in studying.
2B. Lack an aptitude for math or science.
2C. Feel pressured by their parents/society to go to college.

So this group of kids often chooses the major with the least resistance scholastically speaking. And you end up with a bunch of psychology majors or English majors or sociology majors graduating with no professional 'skill' that there is definitive market for, a lack of talent/aptitude in their chosen liberal arts major, and no drive/resources to continue pursuing a career in said major through grad school. These people end up unemployed and rudderless and blaming everyone but themselves for their predicament.

3. So my conclusion is that these people shouldn't be going to school just to get a piece of paper and studying something they don't have passion/aptitude for just because it's the most convenient major.

 

[Cackalacky]

I'm frankly confused by your response... so I'm not really sure how to respond. Are you saying that for people who hate math/science/studying that a sociology degree isn't "easier" than chemical engineering?

It depends on how far you go with it. Not all science/math degrees are hard. Not all sociology degrees are easy.

Where did I say the humanities are worthless?

You did not. Others did.

What does this have to do with a human being a human?

From the stream of posts above from other posters, there seems to be a conception that there are a bunch of "worthless" degree holding people who contribute nothing to society and are mad about it because they cant find a job.

Let me try rephrasing my original point, and then you can pick out by # which parts you don't like.

OK let's try it.

1. If you are actually driven to be an anthropologist, artist, musician, writer, etc. then more power to you. These people aren't the problem... if you are set on being/doing something and have a realistic amount of aptitude you're going to make it with enough effort. And these people are 100% necessary for society as a whole to be what it is a progress.

I agree. Others, based on their posts above, do not and liken humanities to worthless degrees with no value. My question to them was what is worthless, and what is value? Is a person any less valuable than another, under any circustance? Financial or otherwise

2. The problem is that there are a bunch of kids who:
2A. Don't like school and have no interest in studying.
2B. Lack an aptitude for math or science.
2C. Feel pressured by their parents/society to go to college.

I agree these scenarios exist, among others. My question is how does A+B+C, or A, B, or C, or A+B, or C alone, etc.. equal someone taking the easy path inferring, a lesser degree of work and effort, equating to a less worthwhile investment as opposed to someone pursuing science , math, IT and squeaking by only not to be able to land a job?

So this group of kids often chooses the major with the least resistance scholastically speaking. And you end up with a bunch of psychology majors or English majors or sociology majors graduating with no professional 'skill' that there is definitive market for, a lack of talent/aptitude in their chosen liberal arts major, and no drive/resources to continue pursuing a career in said major through grad school. These people end up unemployed and rudderless and blaming everyone but themselves for their predicament.

Once again, equating, humanities with no professional skill or value, yet you say this to open up with "If you are actually driven to be an anthropologist, artist, musician, writer, etc. then more power to you. These people aren't the problem... if you are set on being/doing something and have a realistic amount of aptitude you're going to make it with enough effort. And these people are 100% necessary for society as a whole to be what it is a progress."

I can't follow you.

3. So my conclusion is that these people shouldn't be going to school just to get a piece of paper and studying something they don't have passion/aptitude for just because it's the most convenient major.

I don't follow your conclusion from the above premises. I seem to see a circle leading back to your initial premise.
Maybe it should be stated that college is not for everyone period...? I am not trying to twist your words, I just don't see the link. I know plenty of med school washouts that are smart as ****. One of them is a gas station attendant. I know doctor in Mechancial Engineering that is glass blower by profession......

 

[Irish Houstonian]

We may be picking on literature or art majors a bit much here. I mean, there are lots of "fields" in college with students who don't realize how poor their job-prospects are.

I knew more than a dozen people in law school who were all dead-set on being either in the "music industry" or "sports agents"...Nobody in my entire class has become either of these things, as far as I know. I'm sure more than a few of them would choose differently if they knew then what they know now.

 

[IrishLax]

Once again, equating, humanities with no professional skill or value, yet you say this to open up with "If you are actually driven to be an anthropologist, artist, musician, writer, etc. then more power to you. These people aren't the problem... if you are set on being/doing something and have a realistic amount of aptitude you're going to make it with enough effort. And these people are 100% necessary for society as a whole to be what it is a progress."

I think you're misunderstanding the use of the word 'professional.' My meaning: a 'professional' major is one where you are literally receiving a degree you need for a specific career path/profession.

For instance, in engineering you get a degree that allows you to take an EIT exam and then later a PE exam to be come a licensed engineer. There is also accounting where you gain a skill to be used in accounting and can get a CPA. There are also medical professions (ND has a degree specifically titled Science Pre-Professional), etc. You get the idea. And this doesn't just apply to science/math... there are a very broad range of degrees considered professional.

For a very large amount of liberal arts degrees there is no professional aspect... because a philosophy degree is not required to think about things, a Spanish degree is not required to speak Spanish, and a music degree is not required to play an instrument or write music.

So it's not that liberal arts degrees don't have "value"... it's that they are only as valuable as the person who wields the degree and took the classes. Someone who parties through school and graduates with a 2.0 in sociology will find little value in their degree. But someone who takes their major very seriously and is passionate and driven can find tremendous value in their degree. It's about how you apply yourself during college and aim to apply yourself after graduation.

This is in direct conflict with someone who gets a professional degree, where the training towards a specific profession you received over 4 years gives you inherent value in the piece of paper you get when you graduate (along with any certifications you get depending on profession).

I can't follow you.

I don't follow your conclusion from the above premises. I seem to see a circle leading back to your initial premise.

The conclusion is this: unless you're talented or driven to pursue some discipline of liberal arts, you can probably find a better way to spend your money/time than spending 4 years "studying" something you don't care about and won't use in your career.

I don't know what part of that is really debatable, unless you're saying "to each their own" under all circumstances which is valid... but is also a bit of a slippery slope.

 

[Cackalacky]

I think you're misunderstanding the use of the word 'professional.' My meaning: a 'professional' major is one where you are literally receiving a degree you need for a specific career path/profession.

For instance, in engineering you get a degree that allows you to take an EIT exam and then later a PE exam to be come a licensed engineer. There is also accounting where you gain a skill to be used in accounting and can get a CPA. There are also medical professions (ND has a degree specifically titled Science Pre-Professional), etc. You get the idea. And this doesn't just apply to science/math... there are a very broad range of degrees considered professional.

For a very large amount of liberal arts degrees there is no professional aspect... because a philosophy degree is not required to think about things, a Spanish degree is not required to speak Spanish, and a music degree is not required to play an instrument or write music.

So it's not that liberal arts degrees don't have "value"... it's that they are only as valuable as the person who wields the degree and took the classes. Someone who parties through school and graduates with a 2.0 in sociology will find little value in their degree. But someone who takes their major very seriously and is passionate and driven can find tremendous value in their degree. It's about how you apply yourself during college and aim to apply yourself after graduation.

This is in direct conflict with someone who gets a professional degree, where the training towards a specific profession you received over 4 years gives you inherent value in the piece of paper you get when you graduate (along with any certifications you get depending on profession).

I don't know what part of that is really debatable, unless you're saying "to each their own" under all circumstances which is valid... but is also a bit of a slippery slope.

Yes I was thinking that at some point in one's college career they would learn "professional" skills that are useful and valuable, and I understand your usage as I am currently going to take the EIT exam on Saturday.

The conclusion is this: unless you're talented or driven to pursue some discipline of liberal arts, you can probably find a better way to spend your money/time than spending 4 years "studying" something you don't care about and won't use in your career.

I agree. But my point is it is not just limited to humanities. As Irish Houstonian stated I think we are picking on liberal arts a little too heavily as many fields have their current upside and downsides today. I dont think any degree is worthless given you pursue it with gusto.

 

[IrishLax]

Yes I was thinking that at some point in one's college career they would learn "professional" skills that are useful and valuable, and I understand your usage as I am currently going to take the EIT exam on Saturday.


I agree. But my point is it is not just limited to humanities. As Irish Houstonian stated I think we are picking on liberal arts a little too heavily as many fields have their current upside and downsides today. I dont think any degree is worthless given you pursue it with gusto.

I can drink to that.

And you're right, I am picking on liberal arts too much... probably because, by happenstance, most people who approach the 'school' aspect of college as secondary to the other stuff tend to choose whichever liberal arts major they find the most convenient because they hear stories of how much more studying is required for math/science/engineering courses and don't want that.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Exacerbating the issue is the fact that youth employment has been an absolute disaster over the last 4 years.

 

[Cackalacky]

It's not that people can't be happy...but the numbers prove that Art majors just don't get hired or make any money.

Great! Be happy and paint. Or study art. Or whatever.


But when I see that same idiot standing outside an investment firm "fighting the man" because they don't make jack....it's their own damn fault.

StudentsReview: Salaries by Major

This is a very interesting site for majors, earning potential, years to ceiling, max salary.. very neat. I was surprised to see that several humanities ranked above other technical fields....Sort by ten year average.

 

[Cackalacky]

Exacerbating the issue is the fact that youth employment has been an absolute disaster over the last 4 years.

I think this is because companies are hiring more experienced people for less money. On the flip side, in one my earlier posts, I describe how 2 of my very experienced engineer friends were replaced by 5 inexperienced people out of high school. They shifted the workload to the other engineers and added grunt work to the low wage earners. More work for salaried people, less for hourly and at lower rates.

The overall trend is troublesome, but there are a lot of people retiring right now as well.

 

[Cackalacky]

This is interesting. -600,000 public jobs under Obama. This is prior to his re-election though.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

This is interesting. -600,000 public jobs under Obama. This is prior to his re-election though.

A bit misleading, because this is Federal + State. The drop shown is from the decrease is state employees.

By contrast, federal employee counts continue to grow (the spike is for temp Census workers):

 

[Cackalacky]

A bit misleading, because this is Federal + State. The drop shown is from the decrease is state employees.

By contrast, federal employee counts continue to grow (the spike is for temp Census workers):

ahh yes.. did not see that. Duly noted.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I think the "disappointment" is that most kids -- rightly or wrongly -- think that a college degree will lead them to a "good job". That's just not necessarily the case anymore.

This was my point. Thanks!

 

[RallySonsOfND]

This was my point. Thanks!

Definitely depends on what the degree is in.


My degree (Economics) + school's reputation + previous work experience = having multiple job offers before graduation next month.