High-School Senior Controversial WSJ Article

[GoIrish41]

Race and ethnicity aren't the same. Did you miss your cultura sensitivity class/ training?

Which do you suppose she was referring to when she said "I would've been any of the diversities: Navajo, Pacific Islander, anything. Sen. Elizabeth Warren, I salute you and your 1/32 Cherokee heritage"?

 

[Bubba]

How does someone learn the GPAs and testing scores of individuals so that you know someone was picked even though their numbers were worse than yours? Seems to me that those stats aren't common knowledge.

 

[IrishLax]

How does someone learn the GPAs and testing scores of individuals so that you know someone was picked even though their numbers were worse than yours? Seems to me that those stats aren't common knowledge.

I don't know how you do it on a macro scale, but I do believe schools report anonymous info for accepted/rejected applicants which is how all the websites get their raw data on SAT/ACT ranges, acceptance rates, diversity %s, etc.

On a micro scale, GPAs/test scores were commonly discussed at my HS... is that not common elsewhere? I guess people can lie and say their grades/scores are higher but I can't envision someone saying their scores were lower.

 

[gkIrish]

How does someone learn the GPAs and testing scores of individuals so that you know someone was picked even though their numbers were worse than yours? Seems to me that those stats aren't common knowledge.

Welcome to LawSchoolNumbers.com | Law School Numbers

Applicants self-report on that website. You can view graphs by those who are Under-Represented Minorities (URMs)

 

[irishpat183]

How does someone learn the GPAs and testing scores of individuals so that you know someone was picked even though their numbers were worse than yours? Seems to me that those stats aren't common knowledge.

They just add up the data. They have all that info already. Even at the high school level.

And colleges then report it. State colleges need to do it for revenue

(my next door neighbor in high school worked for the school district and did the reporting)

 

[Redbar]

The problem is that AA is raced based. There was a time and place for it. As LBJ said "You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race, and then say, 'You are free to compete...' and still justly believe that you have been completely fair".

Essentially you think one generation, was enough to right the scale? I guess the kids applying right now are second generation coming out of Brown v BoE, but you really think that competition for elite universities is "fair" now. Then AA would have to have been the most effective federal program in the history of federal programs.

[/QUOTE] you ask me, if any form of AA exists going forward it should be economic based[/QUOTE]

That is class warfare.

 

[GoIrish41]

There is no such thing as equality. That is a term that is being used by some to further their agenda. Not all people are created equal. And that has nothing to do with race. So guys can run faster, jump higher, are better at math...etc.

The founding fathers called it a self-evident truth that all men are created equal. Are you suggesting that they were wrong? ...

Exactly. The problem will ALL emotion based legislation is that it never hits the intended targets (like the uber-popular gun control crap)

... If they were wrong about the equality thing, maybe they were wrong when they said this too. "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" even though you think any dissent is uber popular gun control crap.

And, just because you don't agree with a piece of legislation does not mean that it is "emotional". That is just not rational.

 

[gkautz10]

This may be semi off topic (like half the posts in here) but it follows similar premises. I go to a school that prides itself of diversity and graduating people with ability and conviction. They think that the diversity helps the ability and conviction part. However, me being a middle class white kid from a plain family in northwest Indiana, I pay about 12,000 out of the 35,000 dollar tuition. That is because I get sizable amounts of scholarships from the school because I had a decent GPA in high school and also part because private schools love to just hand out money. However I know hundreds of other kids with similar backgrounds who pay nearly full tuition. I also know hundreds of other kids from Palestine, Nigeria, Ethiopia and the like that go to school for FREE simply because they are a minority and it makes the school look good for some to some people I guess. And I $hit you not, some of these African students can't even speak English. Now tell me why in the hell does someone who can't speak English gets to go to school for free?? Then tell me how these kids get graded on the same grading scale I do or how the graduate?

My point here is that we as white middle class folk pay out the *** for a college education so the government and these universities can import kids from Africa and Palestine in, parade them around and praise them for how great it is that they left a war stricken country. And don't get me wrong, I love my school and wouldn't have changed my decision to come here, but this type of stuff happens all over the place and is retarded.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Essentially you think one generation, was enough to right the scale? I guess the kids applying right now are second generation coming out of Brown v BoE, but you really think that competition for elite universities is "fair" now. Then AA would have to have been the most effective federal program in the history of federal programs.

you ask me, if any form of AA exists going forward it should be economic based[/QUOTE]

That is class warfare.[/QUOTE]

It has less to do with what AA hoped to accomplished (it has failed) versus whether or not AA will fix the problems at hand. I know I have said it many times, but no matter how many people AA impacts, it will not change family structure. If it is purely raced based as it is now, it will only continue to enrich those minorities at the top at the expense of those on the bottom. There is a reason why Asians tend to have higher education levels and higher incomes than everyone else. They teach it and reinforce it to their children that education is the most important thing. Until african americans do the same, AA won't work as it is intended.

 

[irishroo]

The founding fathers called it a self-evident truth that all men are created equal. Are you suggesting that they were wrong? ...

"Equal" does not mean "the same." The founding fathers meant that all men are created equal in the eyes of the law i.e. that the government should treat no man differently from another. They did not mean that all men are created with the same abilities and skills as one another. Arguing that all men have the same amount of natural ability is just wrong. Case in point: myself vs. LeBron James.

 

[autry_denson]

It has less to do with what AA hoped to accomplished (it has failed) versus whether or not AA will fix the problems at hand. I know I have said it many times, but no matter how many people AA impacts, it will not change family structure. If it is purely raced based as it is now, it will only continue to enrich those minorities at the top at the expense of those on the bottom. There is a reason why Asians tend to have higher education levels and higher incomes than everyone else. They teach it and reinforce it to their children that education is the most important thing. Until african americans do the same, AA won't work as it is intended.

I don't completely disagree, but a few issues:

1) affirmative action played a big role in the rise of the black middle class. before the 1960s the black American population was largely in deep poverty, and that changed dramatically in the 1960s for a few reasons, the largest of which was the removal of legalized discrimination and the implementation of affirmative action. Tough to say it 'didn't work', b/c it reduced racial inequality substantially (although not perfectly, with lots of flaws, etc.)

2) the family structure argument is not irrelevant but is flimsy. declines in the two parent family structure have been steady for all groups - they are still much higher for blacks, but have skyrocketed for whites as well and are rising for all groups. Hispanics have remarkably high rates of two-parent households given their income level, but hasn't had much of an effect on educational attainment. family structure matters for economic and educational mobility, yes, but by itself it plays little role in explaining racial/ethnic gaps in education.

3) I don't deny that some element of culture helps explain racial and ethnic gaps. it's speculative and difficult to demonstrate empirically, but it's probably a factor. but acknowledging that culture may play a role tells us nothing about the role of school quality, neighborhood disadvantage, and other structural inequalities - you mentioned research from Pew in an earlier post; you clearly have focused on findings about family structure, but did you miss the findings about the role of neighborhood disadvantage and economic mobility that they published?

 

[SaltyND24]

"Equal" does not mean "the same." The founding fathers meant that all men are created equal in the eyes of the law i.e. that the government should treat no man differently from another. They did not mean that all men are created with the same abilities and skills as one another. Arguing that all men have the same amount of natural ability is just wrong. Case in point: myself vs. LeBron James.

they said that yet we all know they themselves, with their actions, didn't truly believe that...If that were the case, would we really be having this argument right now?

 

[SaltyND24]

This may be semi off topic (like half the posts in here) but it follows similar premises. I go to a school that prides itself of diversity and graduating people with ability and conviction. They think that the diversity helps the ability and conviction part. However, me being a middle class white kid from a plain family in northwest Indiana, I pay about 12,000 out of the 35,000 dollar tuition. That is because I get sizable amounts of scholarships from the school because I had a decent GPA in high school and also part because private schools love to just hand out money. However I know hundreds of other kids with similar backgrounds who pay nearly full tuition. I also know hundreds of other kids from Palestine, Nigeria, Ethiopia and the like that go to school for FREE simply because they are a minority and it makes the school look good for some to some people I guess. And I $hit you not, some of these African students can't even speak English. Now tell me why in the hell does someone who can't speak English gets to go to school for free?? Then tell me how these kids get graded on the same grading scale I do or how the graduate?

My point here is that we as white middle class folk pay out the *** for a college education so the government and these universities can import kids from Africa and Palestine in, parade them around and praise them for how great it is that they left a war stricken country. And don't get me wrong, I love my school and wouldn't have changed my decision to come here, but this type of stuff happens all over the place and is retarded.

Must be on track scholarships...h....a...

 

[LoveThee]

As for racial quotas, etc. I think it's a load of crap on some levels and makes sense on others.

Example A) Real example, a kid who lived across the street from me in a house of comparable value with two parents, same advantages, played lacrosse, etc. was African American. Really good dude, really smart also. But, objectively, he was a way worse candidate than I was applying to college when you looked at GPA, SATs, AP classes, leadership positions, etc. We got into all the same schools and it was possible for him to get a bunch of scholarships that wouldn't be available to me simply because of his skin color. How does this make any sense at all when we have the same deck of cards to play with?

Example B) A hypothetical kid has to work after school just to feed himself - or maybe even his siblings - instead of partaking in fluffy extracuriculars... and even has to choose between studying/homework and actual work-work sometimes. He gets no outside aid or test prep or anything like that and has to attend an overcrowded public school with poor teachers. Are you telling me that kids 3.5 GPA with a 1300 SAT is actually worse than a 4.0 GPA with a 1600 SAT from a rich kid who has been getting special instruction his whole life and has an inflated SAT score thanks to years of test prep? Because it's not and I totally understand "affirmative action" for kids like this.

Example C) What if the kid in Example B is white or Asian but has the same disadvantages? Why does he get screwed?

To me, the problem is that you have thousands of applications with only a sparse amount of time/resources that can be devoted to reviewing each one... so schools have to come up with shortcuts to find the "best" or "most deserving" kids to admit. It's a flawed system, and the biggest flaw is at the youth schooling level with the instruction varies so much from county to county, state to state, and private to public... and where GPAs/SATs only tell a very small, incomplete (and often inaccurate) story of what someone has to offer.

As someone who falls under Example A and going through the college admission process, I agree entirely. Will rep you shortly. I go to a Catholic prep school, predominately white and I am one of the few minorities (50% Argentine). Tons of my classmates want to go to Notre Dame (as you might imagine at a Catholic high school). A few of the other kids have better grades than I do, but I still feel I will be a competitive applicant thanks to my race and a few other "hooks" she mentioned in her article. I think she is spot on, a bit whiny, but correct. I don't see how its fair that as a 3.6 student with the same course load and similar background as three kids with a 4.0, I can still be competitive and might beat them out to live the dream that we all share because of my race.

There was a time AA was needed. Its not anymore

 

[SaltyND24]

As someone who falls under Example A and going through the college admission process, I agree entirely. Will rep you shortly. I go to a Catholic prep school, predominately white and I am one of the few minorities (50% Argentine). Tons of my classmates want to go to Notre Dame (as you might imagine at a Catholic high school). A few of the other kids have better grades than I do, but I still feel I will be a competitive applicant thanks to my race and a few other "hooks" she mentioned in her article. I think she is spot on, a bit whiny, but correct. I don't see how its fair that as a 3.6 student with the same course load and similar background as three kids with a 4.0, I can still be competitive and might beat them out to live the dream that we all share because of my race.

There was a time AA was needed. Its not anymore

If you don't mind me asking, 50% Argentine and what else? I feel you should then not check the box when it comes to race/ethnicity based on your feelings...To the bolded portion, that was my question earlier...if both applicants are qualified to be somewhere, why is there an issue? If someone is unqualified and beats you, who is qualified, for a position, by all means kick and scream. It just seems that whenever someone doesn't get into a school, anybody who did that may have a lower gpa (not by much) is automatically looked at as "unqualified"...

 

[LoveThee]

If you don't mind me asking, 50% Argentine and what else? I feel you should then not check the box when it comes to race/ethnicity based on your feelings...To the bolded portion, that was my question earlier...if both applicants are qualified to be somewhere, why is there an issue? If someone is unqualified and beats you, who is qualified, for a position, by all means kick and scream. It just seems that whenever someone doesn't get into a school, anybody who did that may have a lower gpa (not by much) is automatically looked at as "unqualified"...

50% Argentine, 25% Russian, and 25% Irish.

Call me a hypocrite because I realize that it is, but I am going to be applying as a hispanic because while it may not be morally correct IMO, I have to do what is best for me. I don't see much of a difference between a 4.0 and a 3.8, but a 3.4 or 3.6 is a little different than a 4.0 (sounds like nitpicking). I will give the specific example of my class.

Notre Dame accepted one senior off the waitlist when I was a freshman, one senior Early as a sophomore, and three seniors this year, two early and one off the waitlist. This trend leads me to believe I still have a shot at ND.

When I apply, I will be relying mostly on extracurriculars. I estimate when I apply, I will have a 3.5 GPA, 2000 SAT, but the hooks of founding a school club and being on two others founding a charity, a job, track team, coaching a basketball team, and being hispanic.

Two other hopefuls have 4.0s, minimum 2200 SAT scores and typical extra curriculars.

Another three or so will be applying with 4.0s, and about 2000 SAT scores as well as typical extra curriculars.

IMO, I'm not as academically strong as the other ND hopefuls, but to colleges I am a potentially more appealing applicant in large part to race, which I have no hand in controlling. I wouldn't say being hispanic makes me any more qualified when the other five kids come from similar backgrounds.

Maybe founding a charity and the community service I do would make me "qualified," but I wouldn't say ethnicity should have any part in it.

Sorry if this post is incoherent

 

[Redbar]

It has less to do with what AA hoped to accomplished (it has failed) versus whether or not AA will fix the problems at hand. I know I have said it many times, but no matter how many people AA impacts, it will not change family structure. If it is purely raced based as it is now, it will only continue to enrich those minorities at the top at the expense of those on the bottom. There is a reason why Asians tend to have higher education levels and higher incomes than everyone else. They teach it and reinforce it to their children that education is the most important thing. Until african americans do the same, AA won't work as it is intended.

Slavery was as much an assault on the family unit as it was a labor source. Hard to put Humpty Dumpty together again, maybe AA isn't a direct way to address what you see as the crux of the issue but I'd give it more than 1 or 2 generations.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Which do you suppose she was referring to when she said "I would've been any of the diversities: Navajo, Pacific Islander, anything. Sen. Elizabeth Warren, I salute you and your 1/32 Cherokee heritage"?

Really not sure. You'll have to ask her haha

 

[GoIrish41]

"Equal" does not mean "the same." The founding fathers meant that all men are created equal in the eyes of the law i.e. that the government should treat no man differently from another. They did not mean that all men are created with the same abilities and skills as one another. Arguing that all men have the same amount of natural ability is just wrong. Case in point: myself vs. LeBron James.

I wasn't arguing that all men are created with the same skills and abilities. I was responding to a post from IrishPat who said that all men are not created equal. As Pat and I are apt to do, I was giving him a hard time about his comment. It was tounge in cheek. Pat and I often argue about all things politics because he is a right wing nut job who thinks children should carry guns to school, that minorities reproduce just so more of them can suck off the government teet, and that the glory days of capitalism were those of robber barrons who climbed to the top on the backs of the the huddled masses, unrestrained by government regulation and unconcerned about the stuggles of the average hard-working, God-fearing American worker. I, on the other hand, am a Democrat.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

50% Argentine, 25% Russian, and 25% Irish.

Call me a hypocrite because I realize that it is, but I am going to be applying as a hispanic because while it may not be morally correct IMO, I have to do what is best for me. I don't see much of a difference between a 4.0 and a 3.8, but a 3.4 or 3.6 is a little different than a 4.0 (sounds like nitpicking). I will give the specific example of my class.

Notre Dame accepted one senior off the waitlist when I was a freshman, one senior Early as a sophomore, and three seniors this year, two early and one off the waitlist. This trend leads me to believe I still have a shot at ND.

When I apply, I will be relying mostly on extracurriculars. I estimate when I apply, I will have a 3.5 GPA, 2000 SAT, but the hooks of founding a school club and being on two others founding a charity, a job, track team, coaching a basketball team, and being hispanic.

Two other hopefuls have 4.0s, minimum 2200 SAT scores and typical extra curriculars.

Another three or so will be applying with 4.0s, and about 2000 SAT scores as well as typical extra curriculars.

IMO, I'm not as academically strong as the other ND hopefuls, but to colleges I am a potentially more appealing applicant in large part to race, which I have no hand in controlling. I wouldn't say being hispanic makes me any more qualified when the other five kids come from similar backgrounds.

Maybe founding a charity and the community service I do would make me "qualified," but I wouldn't say ethnicity should have any part in it.

Sorry if this post is incoherent

Control or no control?

 

[SaltyND24]

50% Argentine, 25% Russian, and 25% Irish.

Call me a hypocrite because I realize that it is, but I am going to be applying as a hispanic because while it may not be morally correct IMO, I have to do what is best for me. I don't see much of a difference between a 4.0 and a 3.8, but a 3.4 or 3.6 is a little different than a 4.0 (sounds like nitpicking). I will give the specific example of my class.

Notre Dame accepted one senior off the waitlist when I was a freshman, one senior Early as a sophomore, and three seniors this year, two early and one off the waitlist. This trend leads me to believe I still have a shot at ND.

When I apply, I will be relying mostly on extracurriculars. I estimate when I apply, I will have a 3.5 GPA, 2000 SAT, but the hooks of founding a school club and being on two others founding a charity, a job, track team, coaching a basketball team, and being hispanic.

Two other hopefuls have 4.0s, minimum 2200 SAT scores and typical extra curriculars.
Another three or so will be applying with 4.0s, and about 2000 SAT scores as well as typical extra curriculars.

IMO, I'm not as academically strong as the other ND hopefuls, but to colleges I am a potentially more appealing applicant in large part to race, which I have no hand in controlling. I wouldn't say being hispanic makes me any more qualified when the other five kids come from similar backgrounds.

Maybe founding a charity and the community service I do would make me "qualified," but I wouldn't say ethnicity should have any part in it.

Sorry if this post is incoherent

No, I got what you were saying 100%. My point is that essentially everywhere you go, in this case everywhere you apply, there is going to be someone who arbitrarily is "more qualified" than you based on whatever the preference is of those selecting. My point, as it pertains to you, is that you are a student that qualifies. Sure, there may be many with better scores, but you aren't a 2.5 student with average test scores who is taking the "spot" of someone who has a 4.0 gpa with excellent test scores. What you can bring to the university and offer to other students includes a number of things, and wrong or not, your race is one of them. I learned just as much about life and people as I did in the classroom during my time at ND. Different race, ethnicities, cultures are just some of those things.

I recognize that I wasn't the "most-qualified" applicant to Notre Dame, but that can only be reserved for one person. I also realize that there were applicants who were "more-qualified" than me. I know what I had to offer the university both academically and socially made me a qualified applicant. Did the fact that I'm black make a difference, maybe it did. Was it that I attended a high school (best academic public school in my area) that previously had few, if any students show interest in attending Notre Dame? Again, maybe that was it. Could it be that I was a 3-time varsity letter in basketball and 2-time varsity letter in baseball with honors in both while being the team captain for those teams? Might have added to it... Could it be I volunteered for the 2004 election at a local polling site? I could go on like this for days. I understand this may very well be the case for a good number of those students who did apply that year as well.

I just get the feeling that those who aren't accepted and then say something like it must be AA that was the reason for that decision fail to even recognize that maybe some students "more-qualified" than they are didn't get in as well and ARE miniorities. Now, I know (hope) you who say AA is the problem aren't actually saying that there is no way that a minority could possibly be more qualified than you, but it comes off that way at times. There may be instances where someone who is "more-qualified" than you doesn't and is a minority. What say you then? Fair or unfair? Guarantee the answer is, "I don't give a f*ck, I got in baby!" Sorry this was long...lol

 

[phork]

Best article I have read in a very long time. No political correctness. Just straight to the point and 100% truth.

Political correctness sucks. Say it straight or GTFO.

 

[SaltyND24]

Political correctness sucks. Say it straight or GTFO.

As with many, I just wish she would've put up what she offeredd in comparison. I mean, if she, though unlikely, was a C+ student with no drive, what is her gripe really? Don't get me wrong, what she stated was true about what students do to "enhance" their resume, if she stated what she did, it wouldn't reek of bitterness.

 

[Bluto]

As a person of color I'm kind of tired hearing whiny crap like this from middle class and well to do white teenagers. I've been hearing it my whole life. It kind of reminds me of the scene in Borat where the drunk college dudes let it all hangout and come to the conclusion that "minorities" have it easy.

 

[GoIrish41]

Political correctness sucks. Say it straight or GTFO.

Some take it too far, but really political correctness is simple civility. Why would anyone want to say anything in such a way that alienates someone else? People can say it straight without being offensive.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Maybe the reason she didn't get into her *dream* school is because she is an entitled, whiny ignoramus who is not nearly as smart as she thinks she is. I hope something terrible happens to this girl so she will finally have something worth complaining about.

Yo, Suzy, you know what you should have done better if you wanted to get into a better school? Life. People that are good at life get what they want out of it. Your first lesson is free.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Maybe the reason she didn't get into her *dream* school is because she is an entitled, whiny ignoramus who is not nearly as smart as she thinks she is. I hope something terrible happens to this girl so she will finally have something worth complaining about.

Yo, Suzy, you know what you should have done better if you wanted to get into a better school? Life. People that are good at life get what they want out of it. Your first lesson is free.

Most white people who didn't get into the college they wanted and then blame race simply are using it as a scapegoat. It's easier than accepting that when you were measured as a person, you were not found exceptional.

I can't speak for large state schools, but at the truly elite private schools, there is an over abundance of talent for them to choose from. If Princeton wanted to, it could only accept students with perfect SATs and all As in highschool. However, they judge...correctly... that doing so would lead to a sub-optimal learning environment. Diversity doesn't just mean color in the college admissions game... it means talent, background, experience, and perspective. Colleges try to pick potential, they're don't exist to make little Suzy feel good about herself.

Gkautz... I recommend getting to know those foreigners you speak of. They're probably not the life of the party, especially if they're English doesn't come naturally, but they will end up with some of the most interesting lives of anyone st your school. I was in your shows not too long ago and know what you're talking about, but those are the people who end up going back to their countries and working at prestige positions for either international media, international companies, or their governments. And their English will be just fine by the time the leave, imagine how much harder your toughest class would be if it were taught in a different language.

 

[Redbar]

Maybe the reason she didn't get into her *dream* school is because she is an entitled, whiny ignoramus who is not nearly as smart as she thinks she is. I hope something terrible happens to this girl so she will finally have something worth complaining about.

Yo, Suzy, you know what you should have done better if you wanted to get into a better school? Life. People that are good at life get what they want out of it. Your first lesson is free.

Beautiful.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Most white people who didn't get into the college they wanted and then blame race simply are using it as a scapegoat.

This is the entire thing to me, right here. White people getting mad when other people get opportunities is like being mad that handicapped people get all the good parking spots. Nobody is conspiring to hold you back, white people. There are plenty of opportunities out there for you, so don't worry your pretty little heads. If you want the best opportunities, earn it. When you can't get into Harvard because they stop accepting white people altogether, then maybe I'll find some sympathy for you.

(To clarify, I am white. Somehow I managed to get into college, too.)

 

[gkIrish]

Maybe the reason she didn't get into her *dream* school is because she is an entitled, whiny ignoramus who is not nearly as smart as she thinks she is. I hope something terrible happens to this girl so she will finally have something worth complaining about.

Yo, Suzy, you know what you should have done better if you wanted to get into a better school? Life. People that are good at life get what they want out of it. Your first lesson is free.

Real classy. I'm writing that one down.

This is the entire thing to me, right here. White people getting mad when other people get opportunities is like being mad that handicapped people get all the good parking spots. Nobody is conspiring to hold you back, white people. There are plenty of opportunities out there for you, so don't worry your pretty little heads. If you want the best opportunities, earn it. When you can't get into Harvard because they stop accepting white people altogether, then maybe I'll find some sympathy for you.

(To clarify, I am white. Somehow I managed to get into college, too.)

So much nonsense in one paragraph. My parents barely speak English and make less combined than the tuition at Notre Dame. I come from the most violent city in New York. Why can't I go to certain job fairs or access certain job boards? I guarantee my life has been as hard as the beneficiaries of AA. And save the "I'm white and have a job, you must not be working hard enough."