2016 Spring Practice Thread

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I did address it. I feel it's a stat that doesn't really prove that he was a playmaker. It doesn't have a frame of reference and that stat would also point to him being on par with Jaylon. Is that what everyone sees?

Other than that, your post is exactly what I said about Martini. I said he was a solid player, a value to the team. But he is flawed and could get unseated. My fearless prediction was that I thought it would indeed happen.

Then everyone blew my opinion way out of proportion.

I agree the stat is not perfect but then none of them really are. They don't offer context about play type, assignments, or decision making. They do however at least give a common reference point for discussion and evaluation purposes.

You are getting pushback because Martini has at least been productive in his playing time which you fail to acknowledge. He may not be the fully rounded player that you want there but your argument that he 'hasn't done squat' is statistically incorrect and also silly.

To compare him to the younger guys we really need to evaluate film of both after similar amounts of playing time on same level, which we don't have. So there can not be a solution to this argument for quite some time until the other guys get real playing time.

Also you may want to look in the mirror when accusing others of being sensitive.
 

IrishLion

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Then everyone blew my opinion way out of proportion.

To be fair, your opinion was that he's not as athletic as the other guys and that he hasn't produced...

But that stat, no matter how you try to disregard it, does show that he DID produce. It shows that he was able to clean up behind Jaylon when he was given a shot. So he was productive.

As for the argument about his athleticism, that remains to be seen based on how Bilal and Barajas look.

(For the record, I think one of those guys will step up and play major minutes alongside Coney, so I agree with you. I just don't know who the third LB is, and I don't agree with your assessment that Martini isn't productive.)
 

Redbar

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Those are insults?

I guess you are sensitive.

Listen man, there are like three pages of this discussion and you didn't ask me anything new. Just ranted an accusatory laced post demanding more substance to a dead topic. I went in depth and clearly stated it as my opinion. Don't like it? Cool... Get over it.

First I was hyperventilating, and we know I have fragile sensibilities, now again I am sensitive? You are funny man. Look, I am not trying to analyze you, I am simply saying if you have no basis for your opinion, say that. You asked others to prove your statement false, people offered some statistics, but I am saying on what basis is your statement even remotely true? Your only response is "It is my opinion." Well, O.K., thanks for that.

And save your condescending remark for the next time, I'll apologize if my "rant" threatened your persona, Dude.
 
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woolybug25

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To be fair, your opinion was that he's not as athletic as the other guys and that he hasn't produced...

But that stat, no matter how you try to disregard it, does show that he DID produce. It shows that he was able to clean up behind Jaylon when he was given a shot. So he was productive.

As for the argument about his athleticism, that remains to be seen based on how Bilal and Barajas look.

(For the record, I think one of those guys will step up and play major minutes alongside Coney, so I agree with you. I just don't know who the third LB is, and I don't agree with your assessment that Martini isn't productive.)

To be clear, my "hasn't done squat" is referring to his body of work. He has played in a ton of games, and while his production has been efficient per snap, it didn't all add up to big overall numbers. It didn't earn him more playing time. In my eyes, it was "cleaning up". Hence why that didn't translate to a bigger role.

I think we can all agree that he has clear weaknesses in space, no? If so, I am simply taking what I have seen in film of the young cats as hope that they could do that better. I also simply look at him in uniform, and I see more athletic frames with the other guys. Nothing more. Nothing scientific or definitive. At the beginning, I mentioned that I'm entitled to an opinion, but it certainly hasn't seemed that way.
 

woolybug25

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First I was hyperventilating, and we know I have fragile sensibilities, now again I am sensitive? You are funny man. Look, I am not trying to analyze you, I am simply saying if you have no basis for your opinion, say that. You asked others to prove your statement false, people offered some statistics, but I am saying on what basis is your statement even remotely true? Your only response is "It is my opinion." Well, O.K., thanks for that.

And save your condescending remark for the next time, I'll apologize if my "rant" threatened your persona, Dude.

I addressed everything you just posted in my last few posts. I didn't call you any names, just pointed out that you are obviously sensitive to this topic. That's not an insult. The tone of your posts are certainly not "calm" and you aren't very receptive to humor. So I'll quit responding to you, since we clearly aren't on the same page. Nothing positive will come from future exchange.
 

IrishLion

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To be clear, my "hasn't done squat" is referring to his body of work. He has played in a ton of games, and while his production has been efficient per snap, it didn't all add up to big overall numbers. It didn't earn him more playing time. In my eyes, it was "cleaning up". Hence why that didn't translate to a bigger role.

I think we can all agree that he has clear weaknesses in space, no? If so, I am simply taking what I have seen in film of the young cats as hope that they could do that better. I also simply look at him in uniform, and I see more athletic frames with the other guys. Nothing more. Nothing scientific or definitive. At the beginning, I mentioned that I'm entitled to an opinion, but it certainly hasn't seemed that way.

You absolutely are. I was just trying to answer (rationally) with my own opinion that I think it's underselling him a bit to dismiss the production that he has shown at times when given the opportunity. Everybody that played next to Jaylon was "cleaning up," aka taking advantage of Jaylon distracting the opposing offense at all times. Greer did it in the most efficient way when given the chance, at least against the run. That's just where I'm coming from, though.

And again, I'm actually on the same page when it comes to thinking younger guys will pass him if they grasp the system, because they are probably athletic upgrades (which will be clear one way or the other over the summer).
 

ulukinatme

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A lot of talk about individuals, specifically Martini. Lets not forget that we're looking for the best 11, not looking for the 11 best. If a player does his job and isn't a liability, that's all that should matter. We need more guys like Martini that know their position and aren't trying to execute outside their parameters.
 

IrishLion

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A lot of talk about individuals, specifically Martini. Lets not forget that we're looking for the best 11, not looking for the 11 best. If a player does his job and isn't a liability, that's all that should matter. We need more guys like Martini that know their position and aren't trying to execute outside their parameters.

Joe Schmidt did his job, but he was ALSO a liability.

The problem is that the ND defense needs to find a balance of the above idea, because it's not as simple as it sounds.

Maybe Martini's production allows him to be a better LB than a guy like Joe. Maybe a guy like Bilal or Barajas passes him and offers up an even better balance between reliability/athleticism. We won't know until everyone is healthy and competing lol.
 

woolybug25

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Joe Schmidt did his job, but he was ALSO a liability.

The problem is that the ND defense needs to find a balance of the above idea, because it's not as simple as it sounds.

Maybe Martini's production allows him to be a better LB than a guy like Joe. Maybe a guy like Bilal or Barajas passes him and offers up an even better balance between reliability/athleticism. We won't know until everyone is healthy and competing lol.

I agree with this. Obviously we don't want guys out there out of position or not doing their job. But that's kinda baseline stuff. That's an expectation for getting on the field. Not making big plays, at a position where they are expected, is also a liability. Otherwise, we have a weakness that can easily be exposed. We need both, good players do both.
 
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Luckylucci

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I agree with this. Obviously we don't want guys out there out of position or not doing their job. But that's kinda baseline stuff. That's an expectation for getting on the field. Not making big plays, at a position where they are expected, is also a liability. Otherwise, we have a weakness that can easily be exposed. We need both, good players do both.

The kid has 60 tackles, 4.5 TFL's, and 2 sacks. And he's done so with 30%, at most 40%, of snaps over those 2 seasons.

You are absolutely entitled to the opinion that Bilal and Barajas will start at some point this season, that's a good debate. You can have the opinion that Martini isn't as athletic as those two, that's a good debate but its just untrue to say Martini doesn't make plays, period.
 

IrishLax

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To be clear, my "hasn't done squat" is referring to his body of work. He has played in a ton of games, and while his production has been efficient per snap, it didn't all add up to big overall numbers. It didn't earn him more playing time. In my eyes, it was "cleaning up". Hence why that didn't translate to a bigger role.

I mean, this is sort of re-writing history. I'm going to try to give the most fair and accurate assessment of Martini here as I can from memory.

As a true freshman, Nyles Morgan was the backup to Schmidt. Martini was slotted at WILL behind Jaylon Smith. This is because, as you accurately noted, he does not have an idea athletic/physical profile for MIKE.

But then Nyles Morgan played so poorly that eventually Martini... a guy who hadn't spent any time training at MIKE before Schmidt went down... was able to effectively supplant him after just a couple weeks of playing the position. Granted, the reason that Martini got the "start" against USC was more-or-less by default because of Morgan's targeting ejection. But from Navy onward Martini got more and more reps at MIKE in relief of Morgan who the coaches were beyond frustrated with... and in those snaps, he played better than Morgan. The best illustration of this (from my memory) was the Northwestern game.

Then Martini got hurt against USC after a monster start to the game. It's worth noting though how terrible the defense was a whole in that game. So it's hard to judge anything about "effectiveness" from that season for either Morgan or Martini except to say that Martini was individually more productive when he was in and was more decisive attacking plays.

Then this year, he gets moved to SAM. So he played WILL for half a year, then MIKE for half a year, and then SAM for a year. It's hard to really grasp what he can or cannot do when they keep moving him around. What is up with the staff and not keeping Woodberry Forrest kids in a single positions?

So Morgan now has two full years of training at MIKE in this scheme, and Martini has half of a year. The ideal scenario seems to be one where Morgan has put it all together and starts at MIKE and plays well. But I also think the staff needs to find a way to get Martini on the field... and he doesn't seem ideally suited for SAM. Whether as run-stuffer at WILL or some other role, I don't really understand how anyone can look at the film he's put out at MIKE/SAM/his special roles against the option and not say he's showing something very good.

Either way, it'd be disingenuous to act like Morgan has shown more positive things on film than Martini. And there needs to be a contingency plan at MIKE. Maybe the simplest shift is letting Bilal/Martini be your guys at WILL and have Coney train at MIKE behind Morgan.
 

Redbar

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I addressed everything you just posted in my last few posts. I didn't call you any names,

I just tried to dismiss you by making up a narrative about your emotional investment

just pointed out that you are obviously sensitive to this topic.

Obviously.

That's not an insult. .

But it is condescending.

The tone of your posts are certainly not "calm".

What are you a text pathologist?

and you aren't very receptive to humor..

That's what all that was?

So I'll quit responding to you, since we clearly aren't on the same page. Nothing positive will come from future exchange.

Here, we agree!
 

woolybug25

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The kid has 60 tackles, 4.5 TFL's, and 2 sacks. And he's done so with 30%, at most 40%, of snaps over those 2 seasons.

You are absolutely entitled to the opinion that Bilal and Barajas will start at some point this season, that's a good debate. You can have the opinion that Martini isn't as athletic as those two, that's a good debate but its just untrue to say Martini doesn't make plays, period.

That's not a ton of plays in 20+ games from a position that allows a ton of opportunity. It's certainly good per snap, but that isn't a great overall resume. Which is why I don't believe it to be representative to actual performance. If we can simply extrapolate that to a full time starter, then hell... We have another Jaylon on our hands. Do you think that's accurate? I fully understand what you're saying as a per snap efficiency. But I've addressed this a half a dozen times regarding what I mean by "body of work".
 
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OCIrish

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And just when I thought we'd be done for the day on this........here we are!!!!!
 

IrishLion

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Jumpman, Jumpman, Jumpman��<br><br>HIGH energy all around at our Friday morning practice.<br><br>We're back at it again tomorrow. <a href="https://t.co/NuQiUkYSxS">pic.twitter.com/NuQiUkYSxS</a></p>— Notre Dame Football (@NDFootball) <a href="https://twitter.com/NDFootball/status/710889274971983872">March 18, 2016</a></blockquote>
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Stepherson's got ups!

And credit to the ND Twitter account for being current without being lame.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">☘ The Team is back.<br>&#55356;&#57288; Coach is back.<br><br>Watch Brian Kelly work with <a href="https://twitter.com/NDFootball">@NDFootball</a> on their 1st day of practice.<a href="https://t.co/p0PGuBQGi5">https://t.co/p0PGuBQGi5</a></p>— The Fighting Irish (@FightingIrish) <a href="https://twitter.com/FightingIrish/status/710625397096841217">March 18, 2016</a></blockquote>
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Brian Kelly
 

Irish#1

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I just tried to dismiss you by making up a narrative about your emotional investment



Obviously.



But it is condescending.



What are you a text pathologist?



That's what all that was?



Here, we agree!

That's not a ton of plays in 20+ games from a position that allows a ton of opportunity. It's certainly good per snap, but that isn't a great overall resume. Which is why I don't believe it to be representative to actual performance. If we can simply extrapolate that to a full time starter, then hell... We have another Jaylon on our hands. Do you think that's accurate? I fully understand what you're saying as a per snap efficiency. But I've addressed this a half a dozen times regarding what I mean by "body of work".

LM6sKQ6.jpg
 
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Bogtrotter07

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To be fair, your opinion was that he's not as athletic as the other guys and that he hasn't produced...

But that stat, no matter how you try to disregard it, does show that he DID produce. It shows that he was able to clean up behind Jaylon when he was given a shot. So he was productive.

As for the argument about his athleticism, that remains to be seen based on how Bilal and Barajas look.

(For the record, I think one of those guys will step up and play major minutes alongside Coney, so I agree with you. I just don't know who the third LB is, and I don't agree with your assessment that Martini isn't productive.)

Onwualu is going to play. Period. He went from slightly below average, but a starter as a sophomore, to an above average linebacker who is one of the best cover linebackers ND has had his junior year, to what his senior year? I checked. He is bigger, stronger (which was never a problem), more explosive, and is really getting to know his position. Remember, his snaps at linebacker at ND have been his first since he was in grade school!
 
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koonja

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One thing is certain. If Martini isn't athletic, it's on Longo. If he is athletic, it's in spite of Longo.
 

woolybug25

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They need to post some updates or they are going to force me to do something drastic...

Like discuss Devin Butler...
 
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