Nov 1 | Navy
- Thread starter clashmore_mike
- Start date
connor_in
Oh Yeeaah!!!
- Messages
- 11,433
- Reaction score
- 1,006
Old Man Mike
Fast as Lightning!
- Messages
- 8,959
- Reaction score
- 6,451
1). I'll bet any Navy football player would punch anyone in the face if that person suggested that anyone "let up on them" because they were at the Naval Academy.
2). If any Navy player was "hurt" by us running up a big score on them in a football game, he's not the guy I want defending the country.
3). Kelly should and will dump all that kind of thinking and do what's best for Notre Dame football both in that game and to prepare for the future. When he does that, I'll be in the front line cheering him, however big he tried to make the score.
4). Navy has something to say about what the score will be, and that's THEIR job not ours. For me, I'll let up on the score if I was playing my little sister, not a full-grown man training to fight REAL wars.
2). If any Navy player was "hurt" by us running up a big score on them in a football game, he's not the guy I want defending the country.
3). Kelly should and will dump all that kind of thinking and do what's best for Notre Dame football both in that game and to prepare for the future. When he does that, I'll be in the front line cheering him, however big he tried to make the score.
4). Navy has something to say about what the score will be, and that's THEIR job not ours. For me, I'll let up on the score if I was playing my little sister, not a full-grown man training to fight REAL wars.
NDdomer2
Local Sports vBookie
- Messages
- 17,050
- Reaction score
- 3,875
All of this so much. You can respectfully whoop someone's ass.
- Messages
- 20,894
- Reaction score
- 8,126
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Jarron Jones volunteered that Isaac Rochell moved inside this week with Sheldon Day working at end to combat Navy's option scheme.</p>— Irish Illustrated (@NDatRivals) <a href="https://twitter.com/NDatRivals/status/527616994187558912">October 30, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Was going to say that Day moving to DE against Navy means we're unlikely to see the Double Eagle formation that Coach Thiel described above, but now I'm not sure. Is there another DT that the staff trusts enough to start against the Middies? Maybe Utupo? Cage has been great for a true freshman, but I doubt the staff plans to utilize him that much.
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Was going to say that Day moving to DE against Navy means we're unlikely to see the Double Eagle formation that Coach Thiel described above, but now I'm not sure. Is there another DT that the staff trusts enough to start against the Middies? Maybe Utupo? Cage has been great for a true freshman, but I doubt the staff plans to utilize him that much.
NDdomer2
Local Sports vBookie
- Messages
- 17,050
- Reaction score
- 3,875
Jarron and Rochell are your power/ blow up players. Should help defend the fb dive. Day is a quick/pursuit player who can play the option better. Makes sense to me as far as this week goes.
- Messages
- 20,894
- Reaction score
- 8,126
I've got no problem with it. Makes perfect sense if we're sticking with a 4-3. But the Coach Thiel article I linked on the last page advocated a "Double Eagle" formation with 5 DL, including 3 DTs to completely jam the middle. The idea of defending very aggressively against Navy is appealing to me, but since Day is moving to DE, it sounds like BvG is going to take a more conservative approach.
NDdomer2
Local Sports vBookie
- Messages
- 17,050
- Reaction score
- 3,875
I'll spend some time reading that tomorrow ( as I love the pieces u bring to board) but all season we've been more 4-2-5 than your traditional 4-3. I certainly don't see us sticking with the 4-2-5. But if we go 5 down were still most likely to be 2 lb right?
I don't like a 5-2-4 and I don't like 5-3-3 either.
Us going a traditional 4-3 may be our best bet and moving Day to end may be the most ideal look THIS WEEK, imo.
Last edited:
stlnd01
Was away. Now returned.
- Messages
- 13,386
- Reaction score
- 10,247
That's an interesting piece. I've always felt like you beat Navy on the edges - DEs, OLBs, Corners - force them inside and have your backers and safeties clean up. (well, really you beat Navy by getting up multiple scores and forcing them to pass, but if that doesn't work...) In that case, moving Day to end would seem a smart move. But I could see going hat to hat on the line and having LBs blow up gaps.
Anyway, I think we've got the athletes on the front seven to handle them no matter our scheme. Just need to play disciplined in whatever scheme it is. And score a bunch of points. That always helps.
irishmarine
New member
- Messages
- 2,149
- Reaction score
- 57
woolybug25
#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
- Messages
- 17,677
- Reaction score
- 3,018
Should Jarron really be discussing personnel with reporters? I'm guessing BK isn't going to be pleased with him regarding this.
Isn't that cute.
B
Bogtrotter07
Guest
I will chime in on this.
The big problem last year was not the fullback, not the fullback option, or any of those clichéd concepts put forth. The problem last year was our absolutely passive defense (the defensive linemen were often in two point stances, not firing off, expected to cover two gaps.)
Navy switched entirely out of the option game. In the option game the line blocks at easy angles, leaving a man blocked at any option choice. It is then the quarterbacks job to read that man. He either angles out of the play and that becomes the hot option, or he plays the option and the quarterback moves on. There is no "man" blocking. Last year our scheme set the defensive linemen up as "blocking dummies", and Navy took full advantage. They drove our defense off the ball like they were school kids waiting for the bus.
Navy played three quarters of a game outside the option, with preselected calls up the middle, like old Power-I Bo and Woody ball. Navy never took the foot off the gas. It resulted in crazy injuries to the ND defensive front. That is why I think that we should absolutely run the score this year!
I did like Keith's article on Ken N's take on this year's Irish team. He said we won the FSU game. Flat out. Said and implied ND was a really good club. I think this guy is a class act. His line is Navy has to play perfect, and ND has to help for Navy to win; what a brilliant tact to take!
Back to it : the "Double Eagle", or as we knew it the 5-2/3. Back in the Paleocene, we were the only team in the area running that new fangled 4-3. There were two stack 4-4's but everyone else ran a five man front. Tapping the rarely used, ancient brain cells, there is a fundamental difference between standard defensive assignments with a five man or odd front and a four man or even front.
The long and short of it is that with an odd front, having the fifth man "committed" to a simple angling attack, either right or left, it is actually harder to play the option, and make up for the "man lost." We always had exceptional luck against the option attack. Better than the five man front teams, even when they had superior personnel. As our coaches explained it, with a four man front you can disguise what you are doing better, and confuse a quarterback into reading his options wrong, without making yourself susceptible to a pass option.
This kid from Navy presents the problem that he can run or pass. I don't know that ND will commit to a five man front to beat him. I think that was the BIG problem with the recent defensive schemes against Navy.
And I will bet you BK and BVG hashed out strategy against most of our opponents before the deal was inked! I would love to have a reporter, now that BK has acknowledged that Navy was discussed, ask how many other opponents were!
The big problem last year was not the fullback, not the fullback option, or any of those clichéd concepts put forth. The problem last year was our absolutely passive defense (the defensive linemen were often in two point stances, not firing off, expected to cover two gaps.)
Navy switched entirely out of the option game. In the option game the line blocks at easy angles, leaving a man blocked at any option choice. It is then the quarterbacks job to read that man. He either angles out of the play and that becomes the hot option, or he plays the option and the quarterback moves on. There is no "man" blocking. Last year our scheme set the defensive linemen up as "blocking dummies", and Navy took full advantage. They drove our defense off the ball like they were school kids waiting for the bus.
Navy played three quarters of a game outside the option, with preselected calls up the middle, like old Power-I Bo and Woody ball. Navy never took the foot off the gas. It resulted in crazy injuries to the ND defensive front. That is why I think that we should absolutely run the score this year!
I did like Keith's article on Ken N's take on this year's Irish team. He said we won the FSU game. Flat out. Said and implied ND was a really good club. I think this guy is a class act. His line is Navy has to play perfect, and ND has to help for Navy to win; what a brilliant tact to take!
Back to it : the "Double Eagle", or as we knew it the 5-2/3. Back in the Paleocene, we were the only team in the area running that new fangled 4-3. There were two stack 4-4's but everyone else ran a five man front. Tapping the rarely used, ancient brain cells, there is a fundamental difference between standard defensive assignments with a five man or odd front and a four man or even front.
The long and short of it is that with an odd front, having the fifth man "committed" to a simple angling attack, either right or left, it is actually harder to play the option, and make up for the "man lost." We always had exceptional luck against the option attack. Better than the five man front teams, even when they had superior personnel. As our coaches explained it, with a four man front you can disguise what you are doing better, and confuse a quarterback into reading his options wrong, without making yourself susceptible to a pass option.
This kid from Navy presents the problem that he can run or pass. I don't know that ND will commit to a five man front to beat him. I think that was the BIG problem with the recent defensive schemes against Navy.
And I will bet you BK and BVG hashed out strategy against most of our opponents before the deal was inked! I would love to have a reporter, now that BK has acknowledged that Navy was discussed, ask how many other opponents were!
Te'o4Heisman
Well-known member
- Messages
- 2,510
- Reaction score
- 2,616
I agree we will have more "hiccups" but with our attacking style and speed on defense we will also have more negative/zero plays which are essentially drive killers for Navy's offense. I don't see how they continually sustain drives if we continue to attack and make tackles for loss.
41-14 Irish
Irishcop
Well-known member
- Messages
- 1,034
- Reaction score
- 332
That might have been the worst video I have ever watched. I think it might have lowered my IQ.
Te'o4Heisman
Well-known member
- Messages
- 2,510
- Reaction score
- 2,616
I agree. I coach my sons 12 yr old baseball team, and 2 years ago we played a team that was just completely throttling us. About the 4th inning tt became noticeable that their coach stopped stealing bases and letting guys advance on the bases as they normally would. In between innings we had a little chat and I told him it was embarrassing for our team that they had to "take it easy on us" and I did not want them to stop running or scoring every they could....it was up to our guys to make plays and get outs if they wanted to stop the scoring. Our boys made plays in due time, and although we got crushed I think we became a better team for it, and all of the kids on the team understood what I did, and why...If 10 yr old boys can grasp that concept, I'm quite certain those fine young men in the Naval Academy surely do.
To me it is more humiliating for a competitive athlete to know your opponent is having pity on you than it is for both teams to play as hard as they can until the final whistle and whatever happens happens.
Old Man Mike
Fast as Lightning!
- Messages
- 8,959
- Reaction score
- 6,451
Re: our defense vs Navy.
I respect the Coach Thiel pieces but when I read about the 5-man line I thought "I sure as hell hope not." A five-man line takes one of our best options [a disruptive LB/S] off the field --- either Farley or Tranquill --- or puts them in a weird position. The coach mentioned them ON the field, but that would mean no Shumate.
Also, lining up 5 DLine all the time tires the big guys out. BVG has a rotational scheme which keeps them "fourwise" fresh to the end [see the last quarter power vs FSU.]
I believe that we have plenty of upfront power with four DLine destroyers to deal with this option. I want SPEED elsewhere.
I respect the Coach Thiel pieces but when I read about the 5-man line I thought "I sure as hell hope not." A five-man line takes one of our best options [a disruptive LB/S] off the field --- either Farley or Tranquill --- or puts them in a weird position. The coach mentioned them ON the field, but that would mean no Shumate.
Also, lining up 5 DLine all the time tires the big guys out. BVG has a rotational scheme which keeps them "fourwise" fresh to the end [see the last quarter power vs FSU.]
I believe that we have plenty of upfront power with four DLine destroyers to deal with this option. I want SPEED elsewhere.
B
Bogtrotter07
Guest
Zactly, enjoy your reps!
Wild Bill
Well-known member
- Messages
- 5,517
- Reaction score
- 3,260
The edges are irrelevant if you don't take the dive away. That's where a triple option team wants to strike. Take the dive away and then make the QB beat you.
Schmidt is too smart to be tricked by the triple option and he's going to play well in the middle. Jones and Rochelle (assuming he moves inside) are both good at the point of attack. The three of them should be able to take the dive away. Day's first step/movement off the ball is elite. He's not going to give their QB (assuming he moves outside) much time to make a decision. This is key once the dive is taken away. Close quick and hit him repeatedly. The lack of time to read combined with physical punishment will make the best option QBs read less and anticipate more. The overall speed in the back 7 is more than enough to get to the pitch man.
- Messages
- 20,894
- Reaction score
- 8,126
Thiel's proposal appealed to me because it aggressively counters Navy's bread and butter, and dares them to pass on us by playing only one S. Our talent advantage is so significant that even a single negative play should more often than not be enough to kill a drive; so, in theory, aggressively stacking the LoS = more negative plays = blow-out = Selection Committee boost (maybe).
Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems like much of Navy's success comes from leveraging an exotic and imbalanced attack against defenses that too often default to their familiar, balanced base formations. Diaco managed to stone-wall Navy a couple times by using a simple assignment-based scheme and allowing our superior athleticism to win the day; that's one way to do it. I think an imbalanced defensive scheme tailored toward attacking Navy's strength and daring them to pass could produce even more impressive results.
But it's also more risky, and I'd imagine installing a new scheme is harder than making small tweaks to our base 4-3. Fortunately, BvG's defense and our current personnel match-up better against Navy than Diaco's teams ever did.
In '96 #4 ND played OSU and the Buckeyes give a clinic on stifling the the Triple Option.
DEs Finkes and Vrabel dominated the ND backfield all day long. They repeatedly took a step or two into the ND backfield and then boxed turning the play inside and taking the option out of the Triple Option. When ND ran inside the DEs there was a LB sitting in the hole cleaning up. Fickell at NT owned the middle.
Meanwhile Pepe Pearson romped behind Orlando Pace for 170 some yards chewing the clock.
OSU scored on the opening drive and ND had to play from behind. Notre Dame had the last great ND FB, Mark Edwards, Autry Denson, ND's All-Time leadin rusher, and the speedy Randy Kinder in the backfield. They went nowhere!
Powlus was constantly faced with 2 and 9 or 3 and 7 and only hit about 50% of his passes. ND only lost by 13 and had a punt return TD called back but the score looked a lot closer than the beating ND took on the field.
GoIrish41
Paterfamilius
- Messages
- 9,929
- Reaction score
- 2,119
Powlus was terrible at running the option ... but I don't disagree with anything you said. I remember the game well.
Wild Bill
Well-known member
- Messages
- 5,517
- Reaction score
- 3,260
fify.
CanadianIrishFan306
Canadian Navy Seals
- Messages
- 690
- Reaction score
- 77
Normally these are really cringy but that was actually pretty good. ND still gonna win though.
NDTH91
Well-known member
- Messages
- 1,092
- Reaction score
- 204
In this case I would hate to see your idea of cringy. I couldn't make it through the whole thing.
CanadianIrishFan306
Canadian Navy Seals
- Messages
- 690
- Reaction score
- 77
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/JWp_EVK0A-8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Godspeed.
NDTH91
Well-known member
- Messages
- 1,092
- Reaction score
- 204
Touché.
calvegas04
Well-known member
- Messages
- 11,857
- Reaction score
- 8,435
- Messages
- 20,894
- Reaction score
- 8,126
You never saw the freakbass video did you?
I need to bring this up with Jason at the next meeting, but even mentioning that unholy name should be an infractable offense on IE. Posting his image or linking to a certain video (that shall remain unnamed) should be an instant perma-ban.
Navy C and RT hobbled
Navy C and RT hobbled
Navy staff can only guess what Notre Dame will do defensively - capitalgazette.com
By Bill Wagner,
6:16 a.m. EDT, October 30, 2014
Navy C and RT hobbled
Navy staff can only guess what Notre Dame will do defensively - capitalgazette.com
By Bill Wagner,
6:16 a.m. EDT, October 30, 2014