'14 GA QB Montgomery VanGorder (Notre Dame Preferred Walk-On)

[zelezo vlk]

Shouldn't this guy's thread be pinned?

 

[Emcee77]

Right. Won't the kid's tuition be free as long as his dad coaches here? That's a hell of an incentive to stick around for 4 years.

Yeah, but keep in mind that BVG's salary at ND is likely to be well over $500K. I don't know if he'd have to break the bank for Montgomery's tuition unless he left for a lower-paying job.

Montgomery is a pretty good athlete. Not a really strong arm but he can definitely run and throw. Great PWO pickup.

 

[BGIF]

Right. Won't the kid's tuition be free as long as his dad coaches here? That's a hell of an incentive to stick around for 4 years.

Yes, if he's not playing football or another NCAA scholarship sport.

Any "recruited" athlete as defined by NCAA regs that that gets a scholarship in of another type, tennis, soccer, or chess club becomes a "counter" against the 85 when he participates in his first play in an NCAA Div 1 game. The rules vary for other divisions.

"Recruited" means official visit, contact between coaches and student and/or parents, letters, mailings, etc. I don't know if it still exists but emails or tweets were a loophole.


During Nebraska heyday, "civic" groups in Nebraska counties would award non-athletic scholarships to students who then coincidently just happened to qualify for Nebraska's walk-on program which was a huge squad. The NCAA squashed that sham operation by restricting the roster to 105 players and making non-LOI's counters when they stepped into a Div 1 game.

Bear Bryant, as Football Coach and A.D., use to issue football players tennis, track, and other sports scholarships to get around scholarship limits or simply to keep them from other SEC schools. Bryant wasn't alone only more creative than others. The NCAA stopped that by making anyone a football counter who came in on a different sport scholarship and then "also" played football or played football in lieu of the other sport.

 

[IrishFaninTX]

Yes, if he's not playing football or another NCAA scholarship sport.

Any "recruited" athlete as defined by NCAA regs that that gets a scholarship in of another type, tennis, soccer, or chess club becomes a "counter" against the 85 when he participates in his first play in an NCAA Div 1 game. The rules vary for other divisions.

"Recruited" means official visit, contact between coaches and student and/or parents, letters, mailings, etc. I don't know if it still exists but emails or tweets were a loophole.


During Nebraska heyday, "civic" groups in Nebraska counties would award non-athletic scholarships to students who then coincidently just happened to qualify for Nebraska's walk-on program which was a huge squad. The NCAA squashed that sham operation by restricting the roster to 105 players and making non-LOI's counters when they stepped into a Div 1 game.

Bear Bryant, as Football Coach and A.D., use to issue football players tennis, track, and other sports scholarships to get around scholarship limits or simply to keep them from other SEC schools. Bryant wasn't alone only more creative than others. The NCAA stopped that by making anyone a football counter who came in on a different sport scholarship and then "also" played football or played football in lieu of the other sport.

So even though he is not on scholarship, he doesn't get a free education because he is on the football team? Or did I misread your post?

 

[BGIF]

So even though he is not on scholarship, he doesn't get a free education because he is on the football team? Or did I misread your post?

That's my understanding from several decades of following Division 1 football recruiting and play.

For example Greg Mattison's kid went to Iowa or Iowa St for that reason when his father was working for Davie. He would have been a "counter" at ND and Davie to want to use the scholarship.


Think about it.

All the State U's would have to do is hire mom or dad to work at any job at the school and the kid gets a free ride and wouldn't count as an athletic scholarship. It was an abuse in the past.

But IF the employee's child on free tuition (aka scholarship) plays in a Div 1 game he becomes a "counter" against the 85 scholarship limit. It prevent the phony job scam to get around the limits.


Divison 1 football and basketball have stricter rules than other Div 1 sports and other divisions (1AA, II, III) do for football and basketball.

 

[irishog77]

I brought sort of a similar question up about Joe Schmidt a couple months ago when people were talking about him going off scholarship.

My understanding is that even if he technically did go off scholarship, he would still count against the 85 limit as soon as he played a snap. So, in essence, he wouldn't really go off scholarship (assuming he plays) anyway.

Am I right, BGIF?

 

[BGIF]

I brought sort of a similar question up about Joe Schmidt a couple months ago when people were talking about him going off scholarship.

My understanding is that even if he technically did go off scholarship, he would still count against the 85 limit as soon as he played a snap. So, in essence, he wouldn't really go off scholarship (assuming he plays) anyway.

Am I right, BGIF?

Not sure. I believe so but I don't have rule to cite. In Davie's first he inherited an incomimg lineman from Holtz who apparently had no other Div 1 offers. He arrived fat, out of condition, and with little or no skill. That player it seemd had the same name as one of the trustees as well as the name of a new building on campus. This was during Monk's/Beauchamp's regime.

In the second or third year ND got hit with a the Dunbar sanctions and lost two scholarships. I suggested on the Irish Recruiting Journal that the daddy take out his checkbook and pay tuition for his son who apparently didn't deserve a Div 1 scholarship so that someone deserving could use the slot. The son could still sit on the bench as a walk-on. At the time two members of the IRJ who were coaches in lower NCAA divisions emailed me that giving up a scholarship while still playing to allow another to use was altruistic but an NCAA counter violation. One of them had run it as a theoretical situation past his school's Compliance Officer.

The fact that NCAA scholarships are for one year, renewable annually may make it possible. Common practice when a school/team doesn't renew a scholarship is that the player is off the team. Most leave as they don't have available funds to play a semester's tuition, board, books, fees, and medical insurance by the next week.

ND would have a problem ethically as they have traditionally treated a scholarship as a 4 (or 5) year deal. Holtz use to give a scholarship or two to walk-ons but only Senior walk-ons making it a one year deal in that specific case. I don't recall Holtz offering an underclassmen like Schmidt.



BTW that undertalented lineman on Davie's roster worked his butt off for 4 years and as a Senior he became a credible backup and I believe started a game when the starter was lost. It was a noticeable drop in quality but he was serviceable. I knew some player on those teams and his teammates who resented him as a freshman, lauded him as a Senior for his tenacity, and development.

 

[Emcee77]

I brought sort of a similar question up about Joe Schmidt a couple months ago when people were talking about him going off scholarship.

My understanding is that even if he technically did go off scholarship, he would still count against the 85 limit as soon as he played a snap. So, in essence, he wouldn't really go off scholarship (assuming he plays) anyway.

Am I right, BGIF?

This has always troubled me. I looked at the rules a while back. They seemed to indicate just what you describe, that a walk on is a "counter" (i.e. he counts toward the 85 limit) as soon as he plays, regardless of whether he actually gets athletics aid.

But that cannot be the rule, can it? If it were, then we could never use walk-ons in games without going over our limit. Obviously we do ... in recent years we have used not only Schmidt but Salvi, Cavalaris and Tyler Plantz. Or, more to the point, SC took a former walk-on off scholarship to make room for that convicted felon a couple years ago (that sounds made up but it really happened), and it wouldn't have been able to do that.

As BGIF said somewhere else, I think the issue is that to be a "counter" without actually being on scholarship the walk-on has to have been "recruited." The definition is loose enough to get around ... IIRC a player isn't technically recruited as long as he didn't take an official visit and had no in-person contact with the coaching staff. It's easy enough for coaches to do their PWO recruiting over email and phone conversations I guess.

 

[BeauBenken]

This kid actually isn't that bad. Just watched his highlights.

 

[IrishLax]

It's not a violation and you can do it to get under 85, just all about timing. If you have let's say 86 bodies from your LOIs and players returning who are already on scholarship, there are no restrictions to simply pulling a scholarship before the start of the season from one of the guys already on the roster. All that matters is that you are under the NCAA max by the specified date.

The scholarship shuffle is very common in other sports where you don't have enough to field a team with everyone having a full scholarship. Routinely guys will have their scholarship amount adjusted up or down and there is also the financial aid game.

Any need-based or other academic financial aid that is available to the general population of students can be taken by any athlete and does not count against NCAA limits.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/FJ3oHpup-pk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Montgomery... Montgomery... van GORDER! He's just like... he's just like... a QB walk-on.

 

[irishog77]

It's not a violation and you can do it to get under 85, just all about timing. If you have let's say 86 bodies from your LOIs and players returning who are already on scholarship, there are no restrictions to simply pulling a scholarship before the start of the season from one of the guys already on the roster. All that matters is that you are under the NCAA max by the specified date.

Right. But at a lot of schools (particularly state schools), finding a parent or uncle (or "uncle") to pay tuition wouldn't be that big of a deal, I would think. So why aren't there 10 or so "walk-ons" actually getting playing time all over the country?

As Emcee pointed out, ND has had true walk-ons playing. Other schools do as well. But the murkiness comes as to who the ncaa actually counts, in football specifically. I'd have a difficult time believing the ncaa would allow a legitimate starter to be counted as a walk on. So does the literal amount of PT a kid gets affect his status as a counter or not?

 

[wizards8507]

Right. But at a lot of schools (particularly state schools), finding a parent or uncle (or "uncle") to pay tuition wouldn't be that big of a deal, I would think. So why aren't there 10 or so "walk-ons" actually getting playing time all over the country?

As Emcee pointed out, ND has had true walk-ons playing. Other schools do as well. But the murkiness comes as to who the ncaa actually counts, in football specifically. I'd have a difficult time believing the ncaa would allow a legitimate starter to be counted as a walk on. So does the literal amount of PT a kid gets affect his status as a counter or not?

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but the "trigger" isn't how much you play but 1) whether you play, period, and 2) who pays for school.

EDIT: That said, the kid ain't seing the field so it's irrelevant.

 

[BGIF]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but the "trigger" isn't how much you play but 1) whether you play, period, and 2) who pays for school.

EDIT: That said, the kid ain't seing the field so it's irrelevant.

Not exactly if you are a football scholarship athlete ("who pays") you are a football counter from your first season whether you play or not. Zaire was a 85 counter for ND in '13 as he held a football scholarship even though he didn't use a year of eligibility. If an athlete holding a scholarship in ANY other sport (who pays) becomes plays one play of football he becomes an 85 football counter.



"Counters" apply to the 85 scholarship rule AND also to the 105 roster rule (two different counts) which sets the limit at 20 walkons, 85 + 20 = 105. None of the 20 walk-ons can upgraded to receive an a football scholarships unless there are less than 85 currently on scholarship the team (think Schmidt or Ruffer). In Division 1 if you only had 65 scholarships issued you could award up 20 to walk-ons leaving room for 20 more walk-ons to hit the 105 roster limit.

The NCAA defines 'counters' as well as it defines 'recruits' and those definitions evolved because of coaches pushing the envelope. The rules came about because coaches tried to hide football players in other sports.


Example, IF Yeatman came to ND on a football scholarship but also played LAX he's a counter in football from his first season - whether he plays or not.

Had Yeatman come to ND on a LAX scholarship he could walk-on the football team (providing there was a walk-on slot available on the 105 roster) BUT the first time he stepped on the field to play in an NCAA game he would become a football COUNTER against the 85. If he did not play football his first two year he would not count against the 85 for the first two years. If his first football play was not until the 3rd game of the 3rd season that's when he became a football counter.

Walton came to ND on a soccer scholarship and did not play football as a freshman. Later he wanted to play football, he could practice with the team as a non-counter but when he played in a football game for ND he became a counter. IF Davie had had a full complement of 85 scholarship players without Walton, he would not have been able to use Walton until a later year when he had space available.

In the NCAA Division 1 that rule applies to anyone holding another sport's scholarship that becomes a football player or basketball player. Those sports are specifically mentioned by name. It also has nothing to do with the amount or fraction of the other sports scholarship. In other sports the NCAA allows full or partial scholarships so two half soccer scholarships equal one full soccer scholarships. BUT a Half scholarship soccer player who plays football is a FULL football counter. So if you had two half scholarship soccer players or a half soccer and a half LAX BOTH playing football they would cost or count as two football scholarship.

 

[IrishLax]

Right. But at a lot of schools (particularly state schools), finding a parent or uncle (or "uncle") to pay tuition wouldn't be that big of a deal, I would think. So why aren't there 10 or so "walk-ons" actually getting playing time all over the country?

Well, state schools actually do have very robust walk-on programs for the reason you mentioned. They almost never carry specialists on scholarship because in their state there is almost always someone willing to pay in-state tuition and come kick footballs... or if they don't identify someone then, in the 40k undergrads you're sure to find someone who can reasonably do Job X. Notre Dame does not have that luxury because of both small enrollment and high tuition.

There are tons of kids (Kovacs, McGloin, etc.) who were walk-ons and prominent players. And to your scenario, at Ohio State Adam Griffin (son of Archie) came in on scholarship and was more-or-less at one point going to give it up and go as a "walk on" to get under the reduced scholarship cap from NCAA sanctions because his dad could pay it.

As Emcee pointed out, ND has had true walk-ons playing. Other schools do as well. But the murkiness comes as to who the ncaa actually counts, in football specifically. I'd have a difficult time believing the ncaa would allow a legitimate starter to be counted as a walk on. So does the literal amount of PT a kid gets affect his status as a counter or not?

It is not up to the NCAA if a "legitimate starter" is a walk-on. The truth is, most walk-ons that become legitimate starters EARN a scholarship so it's a moot point. Yes, they could keep playing with their parents footing the bill, but the coaches tend to reward someone who earns playing time with a scholarship regardless of their financial situation. If not, because there isn't one to give out or a myriad of other reasons, then the kid could play both ways for 60 minutes every game and he's still be a walk-on AS LONG AS he receives no athletic scholarship money from the school.

Snoop's kid, Diddy's kid, Ferreita who we're recruiting next year, etc. can all easily afford to pay college tuition. The reason why their kids aren't walk-ons is because it means something to be offered a scholarship. It's a point of pride.

 

[Emcee77]

Well, state schools actually do have very robust walk-on programs for the reason you mentioned. They almost never carry specialists on scholarship because in their state there is almost always someone willing to pay in-state tuition and come kick footballs... or if they don't identify someone then, in the 40k undergrads you're sure to find someone who can reasonably do Job X. Notre Dame does not have that luxury because of both small enrollment and high tuition.

Right, and our staff does an amazing job of finding good athletes who can pay the high tuition. One thing I've noticed is that our walk-ons aren't exactly millworkers' sons from Joliet any more. Today's walk-ons seem to come from privileged backgrounds, and I'm sure it's for just this reason ... we can't take walk-ons who are getting a lot of other scholarship aid, or we might run afoul of NCAA regulations designed to prevent teams from circumventing the 85 limit.

For example, Chris Salvi's dad is a bigshot plaintiffs' lawyer in Chicago whose family owns numerous minor league sports teams. This new PWO Grant Hamman, his father is a bigshot business executive who is the former CEO of Nautilus, the exercise machine company, among other things. I assume kids like this have no trouble paying ND tuition. Other guys, I don't know the details but they seem to come from affluent places. For instance, Cavalaris is from Lake Forest, which is a really ritzy North Shore suburb of Chicago. As for specialists, we've got Antognoli, who turned down Harvard to come to ND, right? Gotta give our staff a lot of credit for finding non-scholarship kids to fill in the gaps.

Snoop's kid, Diddy's kid, Ferreita who we're recruiting next year, etc. can all easily afford to pay college tuition. The reason why their kids aren't walk-ons is because it means something to be offered a scholarship. It's a point of pride.

Exactly. There's a huge status component.

 

[STLDomer]

Per Lou at BGI he's on scholarship

 

[Huntr]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>From <a href="https://twitter.com/BGI_LouSomogyi">@BGI_LouSomogyi</a>: Montgomery VanGorder is on scholarship for <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NotreDame?src=hash">#NotreDame</a>: <a href="http://t.co/PCyStLOWbD">http://t.co/PCyStLOWbD</a></p>— Blue and Gold News (@BGInews) <a href="https://twitter.com/BGInews/statuses/496377838132797440">August 4, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

ETA: Ack, too slow.

 

[ryno 24]

Not really necessary but oh well

 

[koonja]

Not really necessary but oh well

Yeah, why give him a scholarship. Doesn't he already go to school with his dad being a coach? Oh well.

 

[Corry]

Gotta be year to year right?

 

[ginman]

Not really necessary but oh well

I wonder if it is legally necessary. Father is a coach, and he is a walk -on but getting a discounted rate to attend school. Doesn't give a good appearance from the outside.

 

[Henges24]

BK has officially decided that he isn't taking a QB in 16' because he has freaking Montgomery VanGorder!

 

[BobbyMac]

This is poor management of scholarship allocation when you consider they could have simply paid BVG $50 - $75k or whatever the number is plus state and fed income tax.. which he would have in turn simply paid back to the university for TR&B. I'm not sure if this had anything to do with NCAA bylaws

I know of this happening in basketball... father/son - coach/player but it's not the same as it's harder to burn a scholarship in basketball due to fewer numbers compared to football's 85.

Would have liked to have had that one for a blue chip recruit this cycle... only 4 left.

Oh well. It's water under the bridge at this point.

.

 

[STLDomer]

We haven't had 85 scholarship players since I've started followed ND football closely. I'll admit it's surprising and seems possibly unnecessary but I don't expect us to he turning someone away because we're full at 85.

 

[BobbyMac]

We haven't had 85 scholarship players since I've started followed ND football closely. I'll admit it's surprising and seems possibly unnecessary but I don't expect us to he turning someone away because we're full at 85.

Well if there are 5 additional recruits in the class of '15 that want to come to ND... then the staff will be turning away someone who could have played a grad year.... after putting in 4 years with the program. That's kinda sorta jacked up.

.

 

[gkIrish]

This might not be the case anymore but as of 2010 I'm pretty sure children of university employees got a full scholarship. Could this possibly be what's going on?

 

[ulukinatme]

He could be the next Tommy Rees. Nobody thought Tommy would see a snap at the college level.

 

[Emcee77]

Well if there are 5 additional recruits in the class of '15 that want to come to ND... then the staff will be turning away someone who could have played a grad year.... after putting in 4 years with the program. That's kinda sorta jacked up.

.

What STL is saying is that we always worry about that, but it never actually happens.

As long as Kelly has been at ND, every 5th year who has made any significant contribution on the field for us, as well as some that haven't, has had a spot.

This might not be the case anymore but as of 2010 I'm pretty sure children of university employees got a full scholarship. Could this possibly be what's going on?

Oh, that's a great point ... Maybe he is "on scholarship" in some sense but not taking up one of the 85 football scholarships?

 

[koonja]

This might not be the case anymore but as of 2010 I'm pretty sure children of university employees got a full scholarship. Could this possibly be what's going on?

Thus might be the case.

If BVG is all he's cracked up to be, not a bad idea to keep the family as happy as possible since he's been known as a job hopper.