Recruiting Nationally Discussion

[STLDomer]

Not a sub guy so I haven't seen that. Just saying we are basing it off number of players from that state then why recruit any state out west other than Cali.

And Lax yes those Cali stats are ugly, very ugly. But is it the states fault or the evaluator of the talent?

USC seems to have done well for themselves over history with kids from Cali.

This is an awesome topic. Should we take it to its own thread?

But USC is in California and we aren't

 

[NDohio]

OK hold on.... California has been TERRIBLE to us and this is one of the main reasons I feel the way I do. If ND was signing 25 kids for 20 spots every year I'd be fine recruiting the areas you're talking about... but we don't... so we should be afraid of getting burned. Here's a quick California recap for the last decade taken from ISD:

2003: Freddie Parish – Transfer, bust
2004: Terrail Lambert – Multi-year starter
Brandon Nicholas – Transfer
Anthony Vernaglia – Bust
2005: None
2006: Konrad Reuland – Transfer
Will Yeatman – Transfer
2007: Jimmy Clausen – Multi-year starter; rumors of maturity/attitude problems
2008: Dayne Crist – Bust
Anthony McDonald – Bust
Joseph Fauria – Transfer
2009: Shaq Evans – Transfer
Cierre Wood – Multi year starter; rumors of maturity/attitude problems
2010: Cameron Roberson – Injury
2011: George Atkinson – potential starter
Josh Atkinson – backup
Troy Nicklas – Starter
2012: Tee Sheppard – Transfer
Deontee Greenberry – Flipped on LOI day
2013: Eddie Vanderdoes – backed out of LOI
Max Redfield – Expected to enroll; top prospect

I mean... you're talking about 10 out of 13 guys who have finished their careers busting out of the program. That's over a 75% bust rate. Of guys with eligibility left, we've gotten two potential contributors, a backup, three busts no longer with the program, and one top prospect expected to enroll. No matter what way you try to dress that pig, it isn't pretty.

My entire premise is based on... I don't know what to call it... but it's basically a "OBPS" for recruits. You're right that there is value to chasing high guys, but ND get burned more harshly than most when one doesn't pan out because we both don't oversign and don't take JUCOs. Now consider the fact that somewhere between 50%-80% of the kids from California are going to fail at ND... does it really make sense to focus recruiting there? Even if we could land all the prospects we wanted? The answer is clearly no. I think you don't go chase/push, but rather make exceptions for guys that show legitimate interest off the bat in the ND program.

If you draw a giant "Y" on the map of the US from Maine to Florida and then across the middle of the country through Iowa that is Notre Dame's recruiting sweet spot. Everything outside of this general area is "pursue at your own risk"... more often than not, history shows it is not going to end well, and then we're going to be left with a hole on our depth chart.

So no... it isn't "ludicrous" avoid a talent rich state... it's common sense. Take USC for example... go read their boards about the issues they've had with their national recruiting. By not focusing enough on their home grown talent and instead reaching for "better" nationwide talent that transfers/doesn't pan out it has REALLY hurt them. Their 2010 class had FIVE 5 players in it... every single one of them transferred except for Robert Woods who was home grown. So now Kiffin is making a concerted effort to go back to basic and not extend lots of national offers to high players in this class because it has become such an issue.

Between Illinois/Michigan/Ohio/Indiana/Pennsylvania/New Jersey/Maryland/Virginia/North Carolina/South Carolina... Notre Dame can easily field a BCS caliber team with a much higher retention rate of the recruits. Supplemented with a few right guys from Georgia/Florida and non-traditional New York, New England, and extended Midwest (Wisconsin/Minnesota/Missouri/Kentucky/etc.) there is really no reason to chase prospects in California or the deep south who aren't perfect fits because the risk outweighs the reward. We're playing with something like 78 scholarship players this year before fall camp even starts because of **** ups. When you don't oversign or take JUCOs, the risk is VERY real and very serious.



I understand where you're coming from here and if you're confident in these guys "sticking" with whatever choice they make then that makes sense. I don't have a problem with ND 'knocking on the door'... I have a problem with them going all in for guys who have a top school list like "Alabama, LSU, Florida, Georgia, ND" because it's an obvious tell that the kid is putting an emphasis on football-first and not what makes ND different. That's just typically asking for trouble down the road. You give me a bunch of kids like Tillery who are looking at Stanford or Vandy or wherever and then OK... recruit the hell out of Louisiana.

The one state I would add to the list of must recruit states is Texas. There is soooo much talent there and UT is not exactly healthy right now. Other than aTm none of the in-state schools are tearing up the recruiting trail. I would much rather focus on TX as opposed to CA.

 

[IrishLax]

Not a sub guy so I haven't seen that. Just saying we are basing it off number of players from that state then why recruit any state out west other than Cali.

And Lax yes those Cali stats are ugly, very ugly. But is it the states fault or the evaluator of the talent?

USC seems to have done well for themselves over history with kids from Cali.

This is an awesome topic. Should we take it to its own thread?

Yeah, probably should move this out to its own thread. I'll move all posts in a sec.

 

[NDWorld247]

When over the last decade you have a 75%+ fail rate on kids who are committed on NSD... is that really illogical? I don't think you give up recruiting Cali because there are enough kids out there that fit the ND mold but it's really hard to argue with the results. They aren't good.

Lax, some good points in your long post. I will be back later to discuss (son's tee-ball game).

Re: the bolded...Are you a proponent of eschewing California or not?

 

[IrishLax]

Lax, some good points in your long post. I will be back later to discuss (son's tee-ball game).

Re: the bolded...Are you a proponent of eschewing California or not?

Sorry, that was confusing. To put it succinctly, I'm always a fan of "knocking on doors" as you put it. If the person who answers has a 4.0 GPA, is originally from the Midwest, Catholic, is a 5 talent, and says he really wants to go to ND because (insert legitimate reason here) I think you recruit them. Same with legacies. Same with guys like Tillery. Or even, after you've explained, guys from a HS like you described in Louisiana I could see making an exception for.

I would completely quit recruiting kids with any kind of baggage, academic issues, or who are other not pre-disposed to ND. I mean... let's be serious, we didn't make EV's original top 15... with a bunch of really crappy schools (including some in the Midwest) making it. That's a red flag. There were red flags all over the cousins. Anyone who wants to commit and still take OVs... nope. Basically any time it turns into a recruiting "war" I'd say pass. But it's worth "knocking on the door" to see if the guy is a perfect fit. Anything short of that I think you pass for a lesser but comparable prospect in a better location. OR you sign a contingency prospect knowing there is a risk. For instance, I'm OK going after Luatua because we have Weishar already + signed two TE in the last class. The risk is minimal.

 

[NDdomer2]

But USC is in California and we aren't

come on captain obvious. My point was not all kids from Cali are busts.

Are you saying those kids busted because they came to ND?

There are too many factors. It can't be just cali kids, or just cali kids that came to ND ya get what I'm saying.

Unless someone can prove that only kids from cali that go to ND bust.

Fauria is a good example. Kid ends up being a stud but transfer from ND. He was also behind Rudolph and same grade as Eifert. Did we really expect him to hang around? Yet if you go generic in the stats as the ones Lax provided. He is just listed as a transfer. No different that Yeatman who transferred because of discipline.

transfer = transfer, but not all transfers are equal. Kid from cali = kid from cali, but not all kids from Cali are equal.

 

[IrishLax]

come on captain obvious. My point was not all kids from Cali are busts.

Are you saying those kids busted because they came to ND?

There are too many factors. It can't be just cali kids, or just cali kids that came to ND ya get what I'm saying.

Unless someone can prove that only kids from cali that go to ND bust.

Fauria is a good example. Kid ends up being a stud but transfer from ND. He was also behind Rudolph and same grade as Eifert. Did we really expect him to hang around? Yet if you go generic in the stats as the ones Lax provided. He is just listed as a transfer. No different that Yeatman who transferred because of discipline.

transfer = transfer, but not all transfers are equal. Kid from cali = kid from cali, but not all kids from Cali are equal.

But that's kind of the point. You can get good players like Fauria who transfer for a myriad of reasons because it is MUCH harder to retain kids from very far away. Culture shock, discipline, distance, grades... whatever the reason, some apply to all kids and there are some that apply to only specific groups of kids.... hence the increased risk for those groups.

 

[NDdomer2]

But that's kind of the point. You can get good players like Fauria who transfer for a myriad of reasons because it is MUCH harder to retain kids from very far away. Culture shock, discipline, distance, grades... whatever the reason, some apply to all kids and there are some that apply to only specific groups of kids.... hence the increased risk for those groups.

haha we are agreeing (myriad of reasons) and disagreeing.

national recruiting is extremely difficult task to balance holding your regional advantages and making inroads throughout the country, then adding having to evaluate the kid, parents, family, peers, etc. for fit to university.

i just don't see how anyone can compete for championships consistently without recruiting nationally. even bama recruits nationally, now they don't necessarily HAVE to go outside their region, but they do and its usually for big fish.

nd is unique in that we have that national brand that gets you in the door but we also have a lot of barriers to break that local schools and schools like bama don't have.

catch 22

 

[ACamp1900]

What is the flip side though, just recruiting Indiana and the surrounding areas???

I agree there is a problem with ND's current approach for the same reasons you mention... but it still seems better than any alternatives...

 

[Redbar]

Notre Dame's area of focus should place Coach Alford from knee deep in the Atlantic to knee deep in the Pacific. (By Pacific I mean Hawaii, American Samoa Pacific, not Bruin Steve Pacific.) IMO.

 

[NDdomer2]

take alford out of florida? greg bryants biceps say no way

 

[STLDomer]

Notre Dame's area of focus should place Coach Alford from knee deep in the Atlantic to knee deep in the Pacific. (By Pacific I mean Hawaii, American Samoa Pacific, not Bruin Steve Pacific.) IMO.

Horrible idea IMO

 

[STLDomer]

Can someone help me fill in the missing pieces here?

Tony Alford - Florida
Scott Booker - Georgia; Virginia; Maryland
Mike Denbrock - California; Nevada; Washington
Kerry Cooks - Louisiana, Texas
Mike Elston - Indiana; North Carolina; South Carolina
Bob Elliott - Arizona
Harry Hiestand - Pennsylvania; anything else?
Bob Diaco - The Northeast specifically New Jersey & New York
Chuck Martin - Illinois; Michigan; anything else?

Who has Ohio and Tennessee?

 

[Ironman8]

Book definitely has been in the Virginia area. Believe he was the main recruiter for all the guys out of Woodbury.

 

[STLDomer]

Book definitely has been in the Virginia area. Believe he was the main recruiter for all the guys out of Woodbury.

Does he have Maryland and the Carolinas as well? It seemed Mustipher only talked about Hiestand and Hood only talked about Alford so I can't remember who normally has that area

 

[Ironman8]

Does he have Maryland and the Carolinas as well? It seemed Mustipher only talked about Hiestand and Hood only talked about Alford so I can't remember who normally has that area

I would guess that Booker initiated contact with those guys, and then as their recruitment heated up their position coaches took over, which obviously worked well.

 

[Redbar]

Horrible idea IMO

I was not speaking about Coach Alford specifically, but ND in general, and it is not my idea, I just happen to agree with the vision that Coach Parseghian had for Notre Dame, then and now.

 

[NDWorld247]

Sorry, that was confusing. To put it succinctly, I'm always a fan of "knocking on doors" as you put it. If the person who answers has a 4.0 GPA, is originally from the Midwest, Catholic, is a 5 talent, and says he really wants to go to ND because (insert legitimate reason here) I think you recruit them. Same with legacies. Same with guys like Tillery. Or even, after you've explained, guys from a HS like you described in Louisiana I could see making an exception for.

I would completely quit recruiting kids with any kind of baggage, academic issues, or who are other not pre-disposed to ND. I mean... let's be serious, we didn't make EV's original top 15... with a bunch of really crappy schools (including some in the Midwest) making it. That's a red flag. There were red flags all over the cousins. Anyone who wants to commit and still take OVs... nope. Basically any time it turns into a recruiting "war" I'd say pass. But it's worth "knocking on the door" to see if the guy is a perfect fit. Anything short of that I think you pass for a lesser but comparable prospect in a better location. OR you sign a contingency prospect knowing there is a risk. For instance, I'm OK going after Luatua because we have Weishar already + signed two TE in the last class. The risk is minimal.

I think we're starting to speak the same language. My issue with your original comments was the part about eschewing everywhere except the midwest and east coast (which I mistakenly didn't factor in S. Carolina, Georgia and Florida). I don't think we need to offer every 4 and 5 star recruit across the country like it seems Alabama does. We need to offer the "right" players (high academics, high character, good HS, etc). For example, I don't agree with the offer to Bo Scarborough (AL). I mean, have you heard this kid speak? There are probably some other examples, but I'm going to pick on Bo.

And you're absolutely right that the midwest and east coast is our bread and butter. Looking at the 2013 class, we signed 24 players. Of the 24 players, 18 fit into your description of an expanded Midwest (to include KY, MN, etc) and east coast (incl GA and FL). The six players that fall outside of that 'map':

Torii Hunter, Jr. - Texas
Corey Robinson - Texas
Durham Smythe - Texas
Cole Luke - Arizona
Max Redfield - California
The Devil - California

The 2012 class had 12 of 17 in your 'map'. Of the five that weren't, two have transfered (Tee and Neal) which supports your point of kids with baggage. In 2011, 18 of 23 in your 'map'. None of the five outside of those regions have transfered.

So, in the last three classes we have had 16 of 64 (25%) from outside your recruiting base. The three players we lost (EV, Tee, Neal) probably don't fit your criteria for players we should target outside the recruiting base, which I agree with.

In conclusion, I agree we have a recruiting base that we must vigorously recruit (i.e. the expanded midwest and east coast) and that 75% of our players will come from those regions. However, I fully support the staff's efforts outside of those regions (i.e. deep south, TX, CA, etc) if they identify RKG's. I think the staff will continue to get better at identifying players with 'red flags' (baggage, questionable academics, LOVE the recruiting process and attention that comes with it). Don't forget, most of them are dealing with 4 and 5 star recruits for the first time in their careers and will continue to improve.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Well, it was said by arguably the best and most respected HS football coach in the country, but don't let facts get in the way of making your point.

Also, not all HS football programs, coaches and players are created equal. Not wanting to recruit a talent rich state out of fear for future de-commits is ludicrous. I agree, in most cases, hanging onto a LA recruit would be difficult. More difficult than hanging onto any other recruit? Maybe, maybe not. But if you think Saban, Miles, etc, are going to disrespect J.T. Curtis and his football program you're out of your mind. If he says they're done, I'm believing they've gone through the process of thoroughly examining their options and made the right decision. Frankly, I'd be more worried about a guy that commits on NSD than say anytime in the 10 weeks prior to NSD.

You can say the same thing about a lot of programs and a lot of "high character" kids/families who "shut down recruiting" or are "100% final" and then change their minds. You see it with literally dozens of kids in every single class. This is not debatable... but, you know, don't let facts get in the way of your point.

You grossly overestimate the importance/power of a coach. If Saban/Miles want to keep contacting the kid they're going to. If a booster wants to drop a bag with $100k on the recruit's doorstep, they're going to. There is nothing any HS coach can do to stop that, and if you think a local coach is going to go to war with Les Miles over him reaching out to recruits after they offer a verbal commitment I don't know what world you live in. That's not realistic.

This doesn't seem like a good debate, just because opinion is irrelevant. Either this coach is different or he isn't. I'm not familiar with this coach, but someone knows his track record. Either his kids commit and shut it down or they don't, but it is one or the other and it doesn't really seem like a matter of opinion.

 

[BeauBenken]

It sounds to me like if there is any school to recruit in Louisiana to help create inroads into the state...it's John Curtis.

 

[Wild Bill]

You seriously don't see the value on focusing your recruiting on areas where you've already got inroads and it's easier to pull/hold talent? Like every school in the country basically already does? You think it's a good idea to recruit kids who might have a culture shock? You don't think there is enough high talent in the Midwest and east coast to fill up the roster?

No, I don't think there is enough. Look at the 2012 AP All America team. Not a single player from the midwest. Somewhat shocking.

I do agree with your general point, though. They need to recruit better in the midwest, especially Indiana and Chicago. Before Weisher's verbal, who was the last player ND signed from Chicago's Catholic league? Fleming and Filer? Ole Miss, USC and LSU just plucked the top three recruits in IL. All of them played their high school ball less than two hours from South Bend. That's just awful.

We've missed on so many D-lineman from Indiana too. Mike Neal, Kuwaan Short, Ryan Kerrigan, Dexter Larimore, just to name a few. These guys should have been Irish.

 

[ThePiombino]

So......ND should just not recruit SEC land because its a possibility they could decommit.......want some cheese with your wine??????

If you're going to attack another poster, at least try spelling correctly. Just compounds what an @$$h@t you already look like.

 

[NDhoosier]

If you're going to attack another poster, at least try spelling correctly. Just compounds what an @$$h@t you already look like.

not sure if serious... but he can actually use that "wine" instead of "whine" because that is a very common phrase on the internet.

 

[ThePiombino]

not sure if serious... but he can actually use that "wine" instead of "whine" because that is a very common phrase on the internet.

Serious, but I digress.

 

[BeauBenken]

No, I don't think there is enough. Look at the 2012 AP All America team. Not a single player from the midwest. Somewhat shocking.

I do agree with your general point, though. They need to recruit better in the midwest, especially Indiana and Chicago. Before Weisher's verbal, who was the last player ND signed from Chicago's Catholic league? Fleming and Filer? Ole Miss, USC and LSU just plucked the top three recruits in IL. All of them played their high school ball less than two hours from South Bend. That's just awful.

We've missed on so many D-lineman from Indiana too. Mike Neal, Kuwaan Short, Ryan Kerrigan, Dexter Larimore, just to name a few. These guys should have been Irish.

Ryan grew up a Michigan fan. He was going to go there until they pulled his offer for someone else. Went to Purdue and made them regret it every year. Only way he would have come to ND was because he wanted his revenge on Michigan and/or because he was surrounded by a very pro-ND coaching staff.

 

[Wild Bill]

Ryan grew up a Michigan fan. He was going to go there until they pulled his offer for someone else. Went to Purdue and made them regret it every year. Only way he would have come to ND was because he wanted his revenge on Michigan and/or because he was surrounded by a very pro-ND coaching staff.

Nobody is perfect. Kid has a motor.

 

[stlnd01]

No, I don't think there is enough. Look at the 2012 AP All America team. Not a single player from the midwest. Somewhat shocking.

I do agree with your general point, though. They need to recruit better in the midwest, especially Indiana and Chicago. Before Weisher's verbal, who was the last player ND signed from Chicago's Catholic league? Fleming and Filer? Ole Miss, USC and LSU just plucked the top three recruits in IL. All of them played their high school ball less than two hours from South Bend. That's just awful.

We've missed on so many D-lineman from Indiana too. Mike Neal, Kuwaan Short, Ryan Kerrigan, Dexter Larimore, just to name a few. These guys should have been Irish.

Tyler Eifert. Sheldon Day. Gunner Kiel (I know...). Jaylon Smith. They've done pretty well in Indiana the last few years.

But it's an interesting question. I do think recruiting nationally comes with its risks. Distance from home has been (at least a stated) factor in several of our high-profile defections/losses under Kelly - Lynch, Neal, Vanderdoes - while several others - Tee, Golson, very nearly Ishaq Williams - come from places that are culturally and socio-economically quite different than the average Notre Dame student, and that carries an extra layer of challenges that'll prove too much for some kids and make others just choose an easier path.
That said, for every departure there's a success story, like Louis Nix or Teo. And I'm not sure what other option we have than to recruit nationally. We can't well build a title-contending team off the New Jersey and Philly Catholic leagues and scrapping it out with the Big Ten in the Rust Belt. We still draw top-flight talent from every corner of the nation (except the deepest South). We've actually done quite well out West the last few years, even though we've lost a high percentage of our Californians to transfers and other issues.
I think the trick is making sure we get kids from afar who really want to be here (like K Russell) and helping them make sure they adapt once they arrive. It's a challenge that really no other football program faces.

 

[NDdomer2]

the fact that ole miss, lsu, and usc got the top three players in Illinois says everything that needs to be said why we have to recruit nationally.

its one thing if those three all stay in big ten, its another when they go to different regions of the country.

 

[TheChosen1]

I couldn't find the thread that had this bonehead in it so...

Idiot James Franklin back in the news:

Vanderbilt's James Franklin OK with recruiting younger players | The Tennessean | tennessean.com

“If I see a 6-foot-6 man walking in the mall with his wife, and she’s 6-2 and she’s pregnant, I’ll go up and offer their unborn child,” Franklin said.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

I couldn't find the thread that had this bonehead in it so...

Idiot James Franklin back in the news:

Vanderbilt's James Franklin OK with recruiting younger players | The Tennessean | tennessean.com

Lol that's kind of funny.