Political Correctness thread

connor_in

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How long before I can identify as handicap and start parking in a handicap spot. I feel I'm being discriminated against.

For you:

HCqn6tw.jpg


I had seen this in today's Pookie's Toons ( Today's Toons 5/24/16 - Pookie's Toons - The Briefing Room ) and debated to post or not...but with your post I figured you might enjoy
 

NDinL.A.

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Furthermore, whether people want to admit it or not, this is a big argument because most believe this to be a mental illness with no evidence to speak otherwise. If a boy is raised to be a man and taught to understand the difference and to know there's no changing it would some of these transgender situations really be happening?

Where do you get "most" from? Is there a poll or a study out there that shows this data? Serious question - maybe you and I are hanging out in completely different circles and reading completely different things, but I don't find what you are stating to be true. But mine is mostly anecdotal - I'd be happy to be shown otherwise. Definitely people believe that, but most?

For me, I think I've said this before, but it's all a big 'meh' to me. Both sides are taking this waaaaaaaayyyyy too far. The right is going ballistic over something that never has been a problem and Obama reached too far in making this a federal issue instead of a states' issue.

Transgenders have always grossed me out, but fuck it, let 'em live in peace. I admit, I don't think it's a mental disease like many of my Republican brethren. I also don't think they should be bullied, but then again, nobody should be bullied so protect them the way you would anybody that gets bullied, and that's that. Instead, we have this huge contrived bathroom issue that never was an issue in the first place. Fire away at me all you want, but this whole thing is stupid IMHO.
 

EddytoNow

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Where do you get "most" from? Is there a poll or a study out there that shows this data? Serious question - maybe you and I are hanging out in completely different circles and reading completely different things, but I don't find what you are stating to be true. But mine is mostly anecdotal - I'd be happy to be shown otherwise. Definitely people believe that, but most?

For me, I think I've said this before, but it's all a big 'meh' to me. Both sides are taking this waaaaaaaayyyyy too far. The right is going ballistic over something that never has been a problem and Obama reached too far in making this a federal issue instead of a states' issue.

Transgenders have always grossed me out, but fuck it, let 'em live in peace. I admit, I don't think it's a mental disease like many of my Republican brethren. I also don't think they should be bullied, but then again, nobody should be bullied so protect them the way you would anybody that gets bullied, and that's that. Instead, we have this huge contrived bathroom issue that never was an issue in the first place. Fire away at me all you want, but this whole thing is stupid IMHO.

The problem is that schools do not protect the victims of bullying and the restroom is one of the prime places that bullying takes place. Most bullying takes place out of the view of school authorities, and school administrators trivialize bullying when it does occur. Students learn quickly that they can't go to school officials for help. Since the school officials won't remove the bully from school, the bullying just increases if the victim dares to go to one of the school authorities.

At a nearby school district, a student was bullied because of his race. He was forced by bullies to lick a popsicle that had been dipped in the urinal. Where did the bullying take place? You guessed it. In the public restroom at the school. Do you honestly feel that student will feel safe in the public restroom in the future? By the way, the school was content to sweep the incident under the rug until the victim's mother went public with her frustration and confronted the school for their lack of action.
 

kmoose

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The problem is that schools do not protect the victims of bullying and the restroom is one of the prime places that bullying takes place. Most bullying takes place out of the view of school authorities, and school administrators trivialize bullying when it does occur. Students learn quickly that they can't go to school officials for help. Since the school officials won't remove the bully from school, the bullying just increases if the victim dares to go to one of the school authorities.

At a nearby school district, a student was bullied because of his race. He was forced by bullies to lick a popsicle that had been dipped in the urinal. Where did the bullying take place? You guessed it. In the public restroom at the school. Do you honestly feel that student will feel safe in the public restroom in the future? By the way, the school was content to sweep the incident under the rug until the victim's mother went public with her frustration and confronted the school for their lack of action.

Yes! I know it may seem incredibly foreign and strange to you, but some people get bullied and get over it. Some people go through much more traumatic things than having to lick a popsicle dipped in a urinal, and come through it ok. Everyone in the world is not a delicate flower that must be protected at all costs. Again, I am not condoning bullying, nor am I making any excuses for it. It's wrong, it should be watched out for, and it should be dealt with harshly when it is discovered. But the human psyche is not normally made out of paper-mache!
 

ACamp1900

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Yes! I know it may seem incredibly foreign and strange to you, but some people get bullied and get over it. Some people go through much more traumatic things than having to lick a popsicle dipped in a urinal, and come through it ok. Everyone in the world is not a delicate flower that must be protected at all costs. Again, I am not condoning bullying, nor am I making any excuses for it. It's wrong, it should be watched out for, and it should be dealt with harshly when it is discovered. But the human psyche is not normally made out of paper-mache!

This post right here man....

lolololol.gif
 

NorthDakota

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Yes! I know it may seem incredibly foreign and strange to you, but some people get bullied and get over it. Some people go through much more traumatic things than having to lick a popsicle dipped in a urinal, and come through it ok. Everyone in the world is not a delicate flower that must be protected at all costs. Again, I am not condoning bullying, nor am I making any excuses for it. It's wrong, it should be watched out for, and it should be dealt with harshly when it is discovered. But the human psyche is not normally made out of paper-mache!

I'm with you moose.
 

wizards8507

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Moose nailed it.

I'm listening to an interview that Milo just gave at DePaul and he put it perfectly. "The problem with this generation is that they articulate discomfort in the language of personal safety. You're not unsafe. You're not threatened. Threatened is someone with a knife to your throat."
 

Whiskeyjack

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Moose nailed it.

I'm listening to an interview that Milo just gave at DePaul and he put it perfectly. "The problem with this generation is that they articulate discomfort in the language of personal safety. You're not unsafe. You're not threatened. Threatened is someone with a knife to your throat."

Calls to mind an article I just read titled "Political Philosophy and the Bathroom Wars":

Earlier this month, when she announced that the Obama Administration was filing a lawsuit against North Carolina over its “bathroom bill,” Attorney General Loretta Lynch traversed a significant portion of the history of political philosophy within a few short paragraphs. I’m quite confident that she didn’t mean to do so, and I’m sure that she isn’t altogether aware of the issues she raised. But raise them she did, thereby offering us the opportunity to get beyond the controversies of the moment and examine some of the deeper reasons for our current predicament.

Early in her statement, Lynch said that the governor and North Carolina legislature “created state-sponsored discrimination against transgender individuals, who simply seek to engage in the most private of functions in a place of safety and security—a right taken for granted by most of us.” Just a few paragraphs later, she added:

This action is about a great deal more than just bathrooms. This is about the dignity and respect we accord our fellow citizens and the laws that we, as a people and as a country, have enacted to protect them—indeed, to protect all of us. And it’s about the founding ideals that have led this country—haltingly but inexorably—in the direction of fairness, inclusion and equality for all Americans.

I’ve italicized the most telling expressions.

In the first passage, “safety and security,” Lynch speaks in the language of Thomas Hobbes and John Locke, the greatest exponents of classical liberalism. For them, the purpose of government is to guard against the predations to which we’re vulnerable in “the state of nature,” where life is, as Hobbes famously put it, “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.” A state that provides security gives us what we most need, enabling us to pursue our happiness wherever and however we will, so long as we don’t harm others along the way.

How this applies to bathrooms is clear enough: we all want privacy (or, as a toddler I knew once put it, “private seat”). We can all have it, if the state mandates that men use public men’s rooms, women public women’s rooms, and those of nonconforming gender identity use a separate space. North Carolina’s law squarely conforms to these requirements, while properly leaving actors in the private sector to make their own choices about both offering and using facilities. So it’s unclear, on these grounds, what could be the complaint.

Human Dignity, from Rousseau to Kant

In the second passage, Lynch uses the language of human dignity, which developed initially as an attempt to overcome the perceived shortcomings of the low, but solid, concerns of classical liberalism. Following in the footsteps of Jean-Jacques Rousseau, a number of thinkers articulated a penetrating critique of this concern with mere security.

Rousseau argued that our most powerful longings can’t be satisfied simply by protecting us from predators. Indeed, we seek what is ultimately impossible—that others think as well of us as we do of ourselves. We want others’ esteem, not just to be left alone in safety and security. This desire is a prescription for enduring and irresolvable conflict, and those most devoted to winning will be the least happy with the solution proffered by Hobbes and Locke. Rousseau’s political solution—subsuming individuality in a new version of “Spartan” citizenship, in some measure displacing the conflict from the domestic to the international arena—was discredited by the French revolutionaries’ cruel and extreme attempt to put it into practice.

But Immanuel Kant saw a way of both universalizing Rousseau’s suggestion and largely depriving it of its proto-totalitarian implications. We are indebted to him—for better or worse—for the language of human dignity. According to Kant, we are required to respect all our fellow human beings as “ends in themselves,” as moral beings capable of autonomy. Our moral self-legislation—the literal meaning of “autonomy”—leads us to treat one another with respect, which is an egalitarian way of satisfying everyone’s seemingly impossible desire to be first. This apparent paradox—that everyone can be “first”—is, so to speak, resolved by locating dignity not in some accomplishment (such as winning a competition) but in a moral freedom that infinitely transcends mere nature and thereby subjects that nature to rational regulation. According to Kant, we do not conquer nature merely to be safe from predators but also to create a “kingdom of ends,” a world that reflects and embodies our moral autonomy. In this way, we address both our “spiritual” and our physical needs.

The strength of Kant’s argument is that he never loses sight of the complicated interplay between our moral and our physical natures. While our morality is a product of what he calls our “practical reason,” it addresses itself to men and women with bodies. Consequently, it is constrained by the limits of our natures. For Kant, we are not simply abstract moral and rational beings; we love, we suffer, and we want as men and as women. The most difficult task is to acknowledge our embodiment along with our practical reason. Our duties are the duties of particular human (rational) beings in particular situations.

The weakness of Kant’s argument is that it leaves an opening for those who believe that nature is merely matter, to be shaped into whatever form “reason” demands. Rather than offering limits or constraints within which we must live and act, nature can be regarded as just an obstacle to be overcome. What Kant remembers, but seems to permit his successors to forget, is that reason is always embodied, that it is always yoked to a particular person with particular desires. Those desires have to be disciplined by reason.

Kant’s successors are prey to two often connected temptations. One is to lose sight, in the name of reason, of our naturally constrained particularity. We see, for example, the abstraction of personhood replacing the concrete particularity of manhood and womanhood. The other temptation is to mistake what we desire for what reason requires. Rather than overcoming the problem that Rousseau identified, we magnify it. We regard what we want not as an idiosyncratic personal desire that has to be disciplined but as something that no rational being can deny us. We see this in the toxic combination of identity politics and hypersensitivity to “microaggressions” that has made so many college campuses minefields in which no “reasonable person” would dare to tread.

This mistaken understanding of dignity is what Loretta Lynch invokes in her statement. The notion of respect she calls upon is rhetorically powerful, but it’s in service of a self entirely unconstrained by natural limits. Let’s call her conception “transhuman” (rather than human) dignity. There are other problems with her formulation—above all, that dignity is something we ascribe or accord to others, rather than something we inherently have—but canvassing them is beyond the bounds of this essay.

The Christian Alternative

We must find a way of talking about dignity that doesn’t give free rein to our desires and imaginations at the expense of a sober recognition of our human nature. Perhaps we could simply return to the classical liberalism of Hobbes and Locke, but I don’t think that this will do. It is reductionist, treating us as “mere bodies” and not adequately addressing our imaginative or spiritual needs. This is simply not humanly satisfying, and it will continue to be subject to the sorts of undisciplined rebellions we are currently experiencing. Clearly, Kantianism won’t do either. The temptation of proud rationalists to let go of natural constraints is simply too hard to resist.

Fortunately, both classical liberalism and Kantianism offer a clue as to where we might find a less problematic foundation for talking about dignity. From time to time, Hobbes, Locke, and Kant use the language of religion—above all, Christianity—to offer culturally accessible support for their arguments. But I don’t think they improve upon the truths about human dignity embodied in the tradition they appropriate. To be created in God’s image—but not to be gods ourselves—both recognizes our dignity and acknowledges our constraints. As J.R.R. Tolkien so aptly put it, at most we are “sub-creators” who must conform ourselves to the divinely created nature we are imitating and stewarding. And, as scripture reminds us, we are always prey to the temptation of sinful pride.

I harbor no illusions that this genuinely sober conception of human dignity will prevail in our culture. Yet its “unpopularity” does not detract from its truth, or from the clarity that we can gain by understanding it.
 

wizards8507

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We must find a way of talking about dignity that doesn’t give free rein to our desires and imaginations at the expense of a sober recognition of our human nature. Perhaps we could simply return to the classical liberalism of Hobbes and Locke, but I don’t think that this will do. It is reductionist, treating us as “mere bodies” and not adequately addressing our imaginative or spiritual needs. This is simply not humanly satisfying, and it will continue to be subject to the sorts of undisciplined rebellions we are currently experiencing. Clearly, Kantianism won’t do either. The temptation of proud rationalists to let go of natural constraints is simply too hard to resist.
Throw Adam Smith in there with Locke and Hobbes and the problem is solved. The market allows us to address our imaginative and spiritual needs.

Fortunately, both classical liberalism and Kantianism offer a clue as to where we might find a less problematic foundation for talking about dignity. From time to time, Hobbes, Locke, and Kant use the language of religion—above all, Christianity—to offer culturally accessible support for their arguments. But I don’t think they improve upon the truths about human dignity embodied in the tradition they appropriate. To be created in God’s image—but not to be gods ourselves—both recognizes our dignity and acknowledges our constraints. As J.R.R. Tolkien so aptly put it, at most we are “sub-creators” who must conform ourselves to the divinely created nature we are imitating and stewarding. And, as scripture reminds us, we are always prey to the temptation of sinful pride.
65301959.jpg
 

gkIrish

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Not sure where else to put this...maybe it deserves its own thread.

This article by Michael Wilbon seems to suggest advanced metrics are hurting black athletes....

Mission Impossible: African-Americans & analytics — The Undefeated

If the larger sports world is moving in the direction of analytics and we aren’t, isn’t that dangerous? Are we then talking about a dearth of black professionals in the talent pool being scoured by the white, analytics-driven executives who run teams, leagues and networks?
 

IrishJayhawk

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Well that's good. Can you summarize what he said?

As I recall, he essentially said that many people are too dense to understand analytics and that it doesn't have to do with race. But I hadn't heard about the article yet, so I was a bit confused as to what he was referencing.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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I'm not suggesting that you can prevent every mass killing. But if we prevent only a few then that's a lot of people still alive that wouldn't be alive without some form of regulation. Aren't background checks, gun registration or some form of gun control a small price to pay for saving the lives of these innocent people? And why is it again that the average guy on the street needs an automatic weapon capable of firing multiple rounds before reloading?

I've got zero issue with registration and background checks. But let's be real: there are a ton of leftists who want guns completely removed from US society. If/ when that were to happen, the bad guys would go to plan B.
 

GoIrish41

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I've got zero issue with registration and background checks. But let's be real: there are a ton of leftists who want guns completely removed from US society. If/ when that were to happen, the bad guys would go to plan B.

I don't know any who want that ... Even if they (we) believe that would make for a far safer society. Much like deporting 11 million people would be an unachievable undertaking we don't want to take anyone's guns away. We realize the futility and absurdity of that position. No matter what the NRA's sloganeers want everyone to believe, or the paranoid people who believe them, I've not heard any arguments from anyone on the left suggesting that the government would try to take anyone's guns away from them. What we want is to stop making things worse in the guise of making things better. We strongly disagree that insisting more of a dangerous thing will somehow make the world less dangerous. From this point forward we want sensible laws that will keep the disease from spreading.
 
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Bubbles

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I don't know any who want that ... Even if they (we) believe that would make for a far safer society. Much like deporting 11 million people would be an unachievable undertaking we don't want to take anyone's guns away. We realize the futility and absurdity of that position. No matter what the NRA's sloganeers want everyone to believe, or the paranoid people who believe them, I've not heard any arguments from anyone on the left suggesting that the government would try to take anyone's guns away from them. What we want is to stop making things worse in the guise of making things better. We strongly disagree that insisting more of a dangerous thing will somehow make the world less dangerous. From this point forward we want sensible laws that will keep the disease from spreading.

If I'm reading this right....you want background checks, mandatory registration and an outright ban of the most dangerous......illegal immigrants?
 

GowerND11

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Not sure where else to put this...maybe it deserves its own thread.

This article by Michael Wilbon seems to suggest advanced metrics are hurting black athletes....

Mission Impossible: African-Americans & analytics — The Undefeated

After reading that article I can't help but ask, "what's the point of this?" I know a lot of die hard sports fans that are white, and don't use advanced metrics in conversation around the water cooler or in the locker room. This is such a stretch, and I see it as a pointless argument.

Side note: One thing I have noticed is in working with young men in a juvenile facility, and being a massive sports fan myself is that many of our kids that are of color (Black and Latino) are massive fans of certain teams and player. However, they are superficial fans. What I mean by this, is that they love that team. They can tell you who is starting, who played well, who sucks, the record, etc. But, they can't tell you when the team came in existence, the great player from the 1980s, the history of the team/program, or even who the last head coach was. And to these kids, that fine. They care about the here and now, not the past. So I think that goes hand in hand with the advanced metrics not being of any concern to many of them.
 

IrishLax

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The worst part of The Undefeated isn't that it's garbage... it's that Grantland somehow doesn't exist, but the "Black Grantland" spinoff does.
 

wizards8507

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The worst part of The Undefeated isn't that it's garbage... it's that Grantland somehow doesn't exist, but the "Black Grantland" spinoff does.
To be fair, the "nerd spinoff" (FiveThirtyEight) also exists. I think what doomed Grantland is that it became too inseparable from Bill Simmons himself. Contrast that with 30 for 30, which doesn't need Simmons to be successful.

But yeah, I miss Grantland too. They were my go-to for movie reviews, TV recaps, and general pop culture nonsense.
 

connor_in

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here's something to debate thanks to the PC movement
a woman playing James Bond

They have also proposed gay James Bond (Rupert Everett, Alan Cummings). Any of those choices would give credence to the fan theory that has developed to explain the changing Bonds that James Bond 007 is a title/whole spy persona and it was only ever the first one (if that). Although an article I read on this topic very recently said the character should definitely remain British, which made me laugh when you have English Superman, English Spider-Man, English Mad Max, etc.

They have also discussed female Doctor Whos the last few times it came up.

They were even calls for Captain America to come out gay in the next movie. God knows they have been "shipping" him and Bucky on various outlets like Tumblr since the first movie and big time since CA:TWS. Marvel has usually been pretty decent about minorities in their comic books. Nova was the first gay superhero, they have a number of female hero characters and villians and recently made Thor a woman too. Ms Marvel is a Pakastani girl, Kamala Khan. Black heroes include such names as Luke cage, Falcon, Black Panther and, a Spiderverse where Spider-Man is Miles Morales, a black teen. People even were telling Marvel that's who they should use for the current movie reboot of the character.

Personally I don't have a problem with a lot of it, but Cap and Peggy and Cap and Sharon are what I know and grew up with. Peter Parker was the original Spider-Man, and the one I know and grew up with. I have no problem being any color, but his Aunt is May and his girlfriends of Mary Jane Watson, Gwen Stacy, etc are part of his story arc. With Spider-Man, instead of just making him a different ethnicity, they re-booted the whole character into Miles. If they want to do that with Cap, fine, but why not let Steve Rogers continue to be the Steve Rogers of the comics? Falcon took over as Cap for a while with some good story arcs, same with Bucky, but they were still themselves as established over time in the books.
 

wizards8507

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They have also proposed gay James Bond (Rupert Everett, Alan Cummings). Any of those choices would give credence to the fan theory that has developed to explain the changing Bonds that James Bond 007 is a title/whole spy persona and it was only ever the first one (if that). Although an article I read on this topic very recently said the character should definitely remain British, which made me laugh when you have English Superman, English Spider-Man, English Mad Max, etc.
The character should remain British, that doesn't mean the actor needs to be. Just like English Tom Holland is playing American Peter Parker. It really doesn't matter what accent Superman has since he's an alien.

For me, Idris Elba is the most obvious choice for James Bond.

They were even calls for Captain America to come out gay in the next movie. God knows they have been "shipping" him and Bucky on various outlets like Tumblr since the first movie and big time since CA:TWS. Marvel has usually been pretty decent about minorities in their comic books. Nova was the first gay superhero, they have a number of female hero characters and villians and recently made Thor a woman too. Ms Marvel is a Pakastani girl, Kamala Khan. Black heroes include such names as Luke cage, Falcon, Black Panther and, a Spiderverse where Spider-Man is Miles Morales, a black teen. People even were telling Marvel that's who they should use for the current movie reboot of the character.

Personally I don't have a problem with a lot of it, but Cap and Peggy and Cap and Sharon are what I know and grew up with. Peter Parker was the original Spider-Man, and the one I know and grew up with. I have no problem being any color, but his Aunt is May and his girlfriends of Mary Jane Watson, Gwen Stacy, etc are part of his story arc. With Spider-Man, instead of just making him a different ethnicity, they re-booted the whole character into Miles. If they want to do that with Cap, fine, but why not let Steve Rogers continue to be the Steve Rogers of the comics? Falcon took over as Cap for a while with some good story arcs, same with Bucky, but they were still themselves as established over time in the books.
Some things make sense with a character and some things don't. The Steve Rogers Captain America needs to be a straight white male because his entire persona is the "man out of time..." the archetype of wholesome American masculinity as it was understood during World War II. If they want to make James Bond black, that's completely fine because race has nothing to do with his essential character traits. But he needs to be a straight man because womanizing is one of his essential character traits.
 

zelezo vlk

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I thought I read that the guy who played Captain Dick Winters is actually the favorite. I don't know if he can pull off suave, but he sure can be badass.

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