Offensive Line Thread

[GoldenToTheGrave]

Man...

CJ was awesome.

"Got that Prosise strength, Son!"

Prosise was a beast his last year here. We've had some solid backs in the BK era (someone has always seemed to break out at some point) but Prosise was a head above IMO.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Prosise was a beast his last year here. We've had some solid backs in the BK era (someone has always seemed to break out at some point) but Prosise was a head above IMO.

I agreed. Riddick could you juke 1/2 a team out of their cleats but Prosise was slippery AF and had a turbo button.

 

[NDMIA]

OLine Offers

Hiestand
2013 - 17
2014 - 18
2015 - 13
2016 - 11
2017 - 17

Hiestand/Quinn
2018 - 19

Quinn
2019 - 17
2020 - 10

It seemed to me that Jeff Quinn was being more liberal in handing out OL offers, but after looking it up it doesn’t seem too out of the norm the numbers for 2019. However, it definitely seems like 10 offers being out for the class of 2020 seems like a lot for this early in that cycle. I know Hiestand liked to get some offers out real early too but it seemed like 2-3 guys who he’d build relationships with like Olmstead and Carroll in the 2019 class. Is this simply the recruiting office getting their evals on 2020 guy’s quicker with Bill Rees? Or is this Jeff Quinn getting into relationships with more 2020 guys than Harry?

 

[arrowryan]

OLine Offers

Hiestand
2013 - 17
2014 - 18
2015 - 13
2016 - 11
2017 - 17

Hiestand/Quinn
2018 - 19

Quinn
2019 - 17
2020 - 10

It seemed to me that Jeff Quinn was being more liberal in handing out OL offers, but after looking it up it doesn’t seem too out of the norm the numbers for 2019. However, it definitely seems like 10 offers being out for the class of 2020 seems like a lot for this early in that cycle. I know Hiestand liked to get some offers out real early too but it seemed like 2-3 guys who he’d build relationships with like Olmstead and Carroll in the 2019 class. Is this simply the recruiting office getting their evals on 2020 guy’s quicker with Bill Rees? Or is this Jeff Quinn getting into relationships with more 2020 guys than Harry?

It could be a little bit of both. Jeff Quinn is just about done with 2019 o-line recruiting besides a couple guys. This gives him extra time to focus on who he wants to target in the next cycle, get some offers out, and develop good relationships with his top priority guys.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

OLine Offers

Hiestand
2013 - 17
2014 - 18
2015 - 13
2016 - 11
2017 - 17

Hiestand/Quinn
2018 - 19

Quinn
2019 - 17
2020 - 10

It seemed to me that Jeff Quinn was being more liberal in handing out OL offers, but after looking it up it doesn’t seem too out of the norm the numbers for 2019. However, it definitely seems like 10 offers being out for the class of 2020 seems like a lot for this early in that cycle. I know Hiestand liked to get some offers out real early too but it seemed like 2-3 guys who he’d build relationships with like Olmstead and Carroll in the 2019 class. Is this simply the recruiting office getting their evals on 2020 guy’s quicker with Bill Rees? Or is this Jeff Quinn getting into relationships with more 2020 guys than Harry?

Probably both. I think Bill Rees is going to play a pivotal role in minimizing roster gaps that we've seen in the past and he should also help us with earlier evals.

I'm guessing Quinn will have his own recruiting philosophy.

 

[greyhammer90]

Is Quinn only handling OL recruiting like Harry? Or is he acting more like a typical coach and handling an area plus OL recruiting?

 

[KizerWilhelm]

Surprised not to see any posts in here post-Ball State. To get the ball rolling I suppose, at what point do we question Quinn's handling of the O-line? He's recruiting fine, but boy did we look awful against a far inferior d-line.

 

[GowerND11]

Surprised not to see any posts in here post-Ball State. To get the ball rolling I suppose, at what point do we question Quinn's handling of the O-line? He's recruiting fine, but boy did we look awful against a far inferior d-line.

That's tough. I want to say you have to give him this year plus time next year. We lost two 1st round, Top 10 players/leaders plus the coach that's been here for 5 years? Unless the OL does not improve at all, and just makes horrendous mistakes, there was always going to be setbacks this year. If they're cleaned up, or at least happen much less frequent, Quinn is doing his job. Not a good thing to be talking about 2 games into his tenure at the position obviously though.

 

[Luckylucci]

Regardless of how poor they were against BSU, the correct answer is give him some time. Certainly, that was far worse than anyone could’ve expected but give him a chance to coach out of it. From everything I’ve seen/read, it’s all correctable which is reassuring. Plus, it looks like we’re playing 1/2 of a RT, hopefully that’s not his call.

 

[IrishLax]

Regardless of how poor they were against BSU, the correct answer is give him some time. Certainly, that was far worse than anyone could’ve expected but give him a chance to coach out of it. From everything I’ve seen/read, it’s all correctable which is reassuring. Plus, it looks like we’re playing 1/2 of a RT, hopefully that’s not his call.

The regression in the middle of the line is troubling, but probably correctable. I just don't know how you correct what is going on at tackle. Hope they prove me wrong, but I have literally not seen line play this bad since Kelly has been the coach.

 

[ACamp1900]

The regression in the middle of the line is troubling, but probably correctable. I just don't know how you correct what is going on at tackle. Hope they prove me wrong, but I have literally not seen line play this bad since Kelly has been the coach.

I missed the BSU game but didn't think it was overly alarming during the skunkbear game...

 

[zelezo vlk]

I wasn't worried about Hainsey coming into the year since he seemed to hold his own last year. I wonder if it's not just the injury though that's keeping him from underperforming

 

[IrishLax]

I wasn't worried about Hainsey coming into the year since he seemed to hold his own last year. I wonder if it's not just the injury though that's keeping him from underperforming

Crazy stat but apparently he graded out outside the top 200 offensive tackles in college football last yer per PFF. I don't actually have the stat handy, just what I was told, no idea if true.

And now he's hurt.

 

[PANDFAN]

Crazy stat but apparently he graded out outside the top 200 offensive tackles in college football last yer per PFF. I don't actually have the stat handy, just what I was told, no idea if true.

And now he's hurt.

2018 OUTLOOK
Presuming health, this should be simple: Hainsey will start 13 games at right tackle, excel as a pass blocker and grow as a run blocker. Moving Kraemer to right guard will only benefit Hainsey’s progress in the run game. Kraemer is the better run blocker of the two and should ease some of the right-side burden in those situations.

Otherwise, another steady season from Hainsey is all that is expected. That is not to knock steady. Last year such a campaign included limiting 2018 NFL draft picks Harold Landry (Boston College), Bradley Chubb (North Carolina State) and Duke Ejiofor (Wake Forest) to minimal impacts. To keep those pass-rush threats away from McGlinchey, opposing defensive coordinators frequently lined them up against Kraemer or Hainsey. The young rotating duo stymied them, nonetheless. Landry managed all of one tackle, though he was later taken in the draft’s second round. Chubb did get to the quarterback once, only one yard behind the line of scrimmage, part of a very slow day for the eventual No. 5 overall pick. Ejiofor, a sixth-round selection, made two total tackles.
https://irish.nbcsports.com/2018/06...2-no-72-robert-hainsey-starting-right-tackle/

Crazy stat if true

 

[snoopdog]

Crazy stat but apparently he graded out outside the top 200 offensive tackles in college football last yer per PFF. I don't actually have the stat handy, just what I was told, no idea if true.

And now he's hurt.

Not crazy. He was an under sized, under strengthed true freshman

 

[koonja]

Is Robert Hainsey BK's new Joe Schmidt?

"Must play regardless of production, talent behind him, and injury!!!"

Because we have 2 healthy monsters behind him in Josh Lugg and Aaron Banks that I trust as much as I ever trusted Hainsey.

 

[Valpodoc85]

18 stripes had an advanced stats article on OL play.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

The regression in the middle of the line is troubling, but probably correctable. I just don't know how you correct what is going on at tackle. Hope they prove me wrong, but I have literally not seen line play this bad since Kelly has been the coach.

You think Bars is struggling? I don’t at all. I thought he has played really well this year. Sam and Kramer I agree have both struggled.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[snoopdog]

Sam's struggles are mildly perplexing.

 

[dad4aa]

You think Bars is struggling? I don’t at all. I thought he has played really well this year. Sam and Kramer I agree have both struggled.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I thought bars did well against Michigan but struggled with BSU. I was at the game and have not watched the game again on DVR but I remember seeing someone blow by him on the inside twice to get Wimbush.

 

[Old Man Mike]

I graded every snap in the first half vs Michigan (and posted that for anyone to object to.) Our middle three KILLED Michigan's DTs so badly that they were essentially quitting in the second half. Blocking problems included not being able to handle Winovich's outside rush, the TEs and RBs hardly getting a clean block, play calling errors (no pulling sweeps work vs Michigan), and zero WR blocking effectiveness.

Since (in my vision) the middle three did almost everything correctly vs one of allegedly best DLines/linebacker units in all of college football, any claim to poor play on their part vs BSU needs to be sought elsewhere --- like "scheme." Bars has always had an occasional bust, but is very technically sound. Mustipher has always lacked sufficient quickness to do some of the very hard things that the offense asks of him, and occasionally sees a NT who is just too strong. Kraemer killed everybody all night and mauled/pancaked several.

Eichenberg and Hainsey: These guys get beat on speed rushes occasionally but when Wimbush has the chones to step in the correct direction, they (especially Eichenberg) direct the outside rusher far enough upfield that Wimbush can step up or even sprint through the vacated gap. (If we had Tommy at LG that gap would be even bigger.) The bottomline --- we blocked Michigan most of the time at all five positions.

Running plays failed because a). it's hard to straight run if you don't get more than five guys blocking; b). running plays get stuffed all over football all the time; c). the main idea is to really bust it now and then, and we don't have the backs and WR blocking to do it.

Worry about the OLine? Sure. Why not?, we tend to get hysterical about everything. Thinking that this position group is some sort of major weakness for our offense? I'd say worry about EVERY OTHER position group first. None of them are very relaxing to me.

Worry about blocking? Sure. How about worrying a little more about the TEs, RBs, and WRs not doing the level of job at this that we have become accustomed to?

Worry about the BSU game performance? Sure. How about remembering Michigan while we're at it?

So how can you have "Michigan" and follow it with "BSU?" Maybe we should look at coaching preparation schematically and emotionally, rather than our big uglies. ... and maybe we should give these guys and their coach a few more games to polish up their act. Michigan proves that we have the potential. Let's see where we take it. ... and remember that plays aren't blocked usually by five guys alone.

 

[IrishLax]

I graded every snap in the first half vs Michigan (and posted that for anyone to object to.) Our middle three KILLED Michigan's DTs so badly that they were essentially quitting in the second half. Blocking problems included not being able to handle Winovich's outside rush, the TEs and RBs hardly getting a clean block, play calling errors (no pulling sweeps work vs Michigan), and zero WR blocking effectiveness.

Since (in my vision) the middle three did almost everything correctly vs one of allegedly best DLines/linebacker units in all of college football, any claim to poor play on their part vs BSU needs to be sought elsewhere --- like "scheme." Bars has always had an occasional bust, but is very technically sound. Mustipher has always lacked sufficient quickness to do some of the very hard things that the offense asks of him, and occasionally sees a NT who is just too strong. Kraemer killed everybody all night and mauled/pancaked several.

Eichenberg and Hainsey: These guys get beat on speed rushes occasionally but when Wimbush has the chones to step in the correct direction, they (especially Eichenberg) direct the outside rusher far enough upfield that Wimbush can step up or even sprint through the vacated gap. (If we had Tommy at LG that gap would be even bigger.) The bottomline --- we blocked Michigan most of the time at all five positions.

Running plays failed because a). it's hard to straight run if you don't get more than five guys blocking; b). running plays get stuffed all over football all the time; c). the main idea is to really bust it now and then, and we don't have the backs and WR blocking to do it.

Worry about the OLine? Sure. Why not?, we tend to get hysterical about everything. Thinking that this position group is some sort of major weakness for our offense? I'd say worry about EVERY OTHER position group first. None of them are very relaxing to me.

Worry about blocking? Sure. How about worrying a little more about the TEs, RBs, and WRs not doing the level of job at this that we have become accustomed to?

Worry about the BSU game performance? Sure. How about remembering Michigan while we're at it?

So how can you have "Michigan" and follow it with "BSU?" Maybe we should look at coaching preparation schematically and emotionally, rather than our big uglies. ... and maybe we should give these guys and their coach a few more games to polish up their act. Michigan proves that we have the potential. Let's see where we take it. ... and remember that plays aren't blocked usually by five guys alone.

People are worrying about the OL because the team's rushing success rank right now is 100+ in the country, the TFL allowed numbers are 100+ in the country, and the OL has looked bad for six straight quarters.

The first half against Michigan -- which you charted, and virtually everyone was pleased with -- are unarguably the best 2 quarters they played so far this year. It is the other 6 quarters are troublesome.

It's important that people don't conflate "regression" with "bad"... there is no way to look at Nelson-Mustipher-Bars last year and not say there is regression with Bars-Mustipher-Kraemer this year. This was predictable, because Nelson was a generational offensive guard and there was no way the OL was going to play that well this year. I'd say on the whole, the interior OL has been solid with their main issue being breakdowns and missed assignments that allow free rushers... is that scheme? Mental errors? Who knows. It's almost certainly fixable.

The reason people are 'panicking' (which I don't think they are, I think they're rightfully discussing a major apparent issue) is in part because with this current level of OL play ND cannot run the ball effectively, and running the ball effectively is the most important thing for this Chip Long offense to be successful. When ND ran the ball well last year, they won. When they didn't, they lost. The other part is that the issues at the tackle spots don't appear to be as easily fixable as missed assignments... Hainsey is hurt a lot more than they're saying publicly, Eichenberg gets beat around the edge so clean that Wimbush got hit by a DE on a QB draw which should basically be impossible. When there are physical problems, those are not as easily fixed with coaching alone.

 

[IrishLax]

18 stripes had an advanced stats article on OL play.

Thanks for heads up, here's a link -- https://www.18stripes.com/advanced-stats-review-ball-state-notre-dame/

So there was a run stuff rate of darn near 30% by Ball State, and a havoc rate of 25%+. Both of those numbers are insane... if averaged over the course of the season that'd be tops in the country... and this is Ball State. Our OL made a team that was near the bottom of all of football last year look like literally the most disruptive defense in the country.

This is why people are rightfully expressing concern. The hope is that it's an aberration and gets corrected as the year goes on... if that doesn't happen, there is no way to win with that kind of line play + a QB taking sacks/throwing interceptions.

 

[Irish YJ]

Vandy has some great game tape of what to-do....

Mason already said they'd be stacking the box.

Vandy is Vandy, but they do have much better rated recruits.

I doubt BK will treat this as another practice game.

 

[TDHeysus]

Sam's struggles are mildly perplexing.

for me I would rate it slightly higher than mildy perplexing. I've seen a some whiffs, and a blow-by or 2 happen as well.

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

Surprised not to see any posts in here post-Ball State. To get the ball rolling I suppose, at what point do we question Quinn's handling of the O-line? He's recruiting fine, but boy did we look awful against a far inferior d-line.

I forgot this was a thread. My concerns have been well documented in the Post-game thread and Vandy preview, but I'm hoping they can figure this out on Saturday and we roll.

I want to see us win the rushing battle again, a la scUM. We don't need to run for 250 yards, but what concerned me was that we got out-rushed by Ball State, and Wimbush was under duress almost the entire game by their pass rush. Now, to give BSU some credit, they were stunting and doing a lot of different things. But if you're telling me that our staff can't make adjustments to out-scheme the Ball St staff, then my concerns shift entirely to BK/Long/Quinn.

I'm not usually one to get dragged down too much, so I'm really hoping we correct the big uglies up front and roll Vandy Saturday. I think it can happen. I was just perplexed by our front 5 against BSU, never saw that coming with our size advantage.

 

[PANDFAN]

saw miles boykin state that the wr's are NOT helping out wimbush as they aren't always running the right routes...add that to the list of things hurting the offense

 

[stlnd01]

2018 OUTLOOK
Presuming health, this should be simple: Hainsey will start 13 games at right tackle, excel as a pass blocker and grow as a run blocker. Moving Kraemer to right guard will only benefit Hainsey’s progress in the run game. Kraemer is the better run blocker of the two and should ease some of the right-side burden in those situations.

Otherwise, another steady season from Hainsey is all that is expected. That is not to knock steady. Last year such a campaign included limiting 2018 NFL draft picks Harold Landry (Boston College), Bradley Chubb (North Carolina State) and Duke Ejiofor (Wake Forest) to minimal impacts. To keep those pass-rush threats away from McGlinchey, opposing defensive coordinators frequently lined them up against Kraemer or Hainsey. The young rotating duo stymied them, nonetheless. Landry managed all of one tackle, though he was later taken in the draft’s second round. Chubb did get to the quarterback once, only one yard behind the line of scrimmage, part of a very slow day for the eventual No. 5 overall pick. Ejiofor, a sixth-round selection, made two total tackles.
https://irish.nbcsports.com/2018/06...2-no-72-robert-hainsey-starting-right-tackle/

Crazy stat if true

Yeah, Hainsey shut down some serious pass rushers last year. This year he’s a revolving door. As Lax said, he’s got to be hurt more than they’ve said. But if that’s the case, maybe play someone else and let him rest?

 

[IRISHMAN]

Yeah, Hainsey shut down some serious pass rushers last year. This year he’s a revolving door. As Lax said, he’s got to be hurt more than they’ve said. But if that’s the case, maybe play someone else and let him rest?

yeah cant understand why hainsey is struggling, he's playing the same position as last year it's just now he's a full time starter.

this OL is clearly overrated and it may not matter if ND replaces wimbush for book if they cant protect him or get any type of running game going.

 

[IrishLax]

yeah cant understand why hainsey is struggling, he's playing the same position as last year it's just now he's a full time starter.

this OL is clearly overrated and it may not matter if ND replaces wimbush for book if they cant protect him or get any type of running game going.

He's more hurt than they're letting on.