2015 NFL Draft

[greyhammer90]

Oh... and rape a girl.

You really want to go there? Did OJ murder someone? In your world, I suppose not.

Let's not be intellectually dishonest here by trying to act like the situation didn't occur. Regardless of the court's decision (based primarily on the fact that the Talahassee PD and FSU completely screwed the pooch on the investigation), we cannot act like the accusation didn't occur and that he didn't put himself in the situation.

Sheesh...

It's just as intellectually dishonest to state that he committed rape as though it's a fact.

 

[woolybug25]

I was addressing the accusation of rape that YOU brought up whatever its all good. I'd be willing to bet a ton that Winston is at the very least a moderately successful QB in the NFL. He is 100x the competitor and leader that Jamarcus Russell is and NFL scouts seem to agree.

YOU are the one that said nothing of merit came up and tried to marginalize all of his incidents and even leaving out completely his most egregious event. Simply in attempts to make some kind of incoherent argument. One that your obnoxious example of Shembo backfired on your point.

You don't know that he's 100x the competitor as Russell. People obviously loved him too during his draft.

 

[woolybug25]

It's just as intellectually dishonest to state that he committed rape as though it's a fact.

So making the statement that I believe he raped a girl (which there is certainly evidence and he was never proven innocent of) is intellectually dishonest? How so? Because he wasn't convicted of it? Having an opinion of an incident is not intellectually dishonest.

Completely removing the incident from the argument in order to shape an opinion is certainly intellectually dishonest.

 

[arrowryan]

I was addressing the accusation of rape that YOU brought up whatever its all good. I'd be willing to bet a ton that Winston is at the very least a moderately successful QB in the NFL. He is 100x the competitor and leader that Jamarcus Russell is and NFL scouts seem to agree.

Like Cam Newton successful?

Winston is a huge risk to be taking at #1. Between his dumbass decisions on the field and his trouble with the law off the field, I just could not convince myself to pick him at #1 if I was a GM. Jameis Winston will be playing grown men now and they won't have any problem exposing his weaknesses. Marriota is the safer pick and I wouldn't be surprised to see him have a more successful career, as long as Cleveland doesn't trade up to get him

 

[greyhammer90]

So making the statement that I believe he raped a girl (which there is certainly evidence and he was never proven innocent of) is intellectually dishonest? How so? Because he wasn't convicted of it? Having an opinion of an incident is not intellectually dishonest.

Completely removing the incident from the argument in order to shape an opinion is certainly intellectually dishonest.

You didn't say you thought he raped a girl (which by the way holy cow even assuming that this means you think its 50% more likely that he raped her than not, where are you getting that level of confidence from in the facts?). You said he raped a girl.

 

[pkt77242]

Like Cam Newton successful?

Winston is a huge risk to be taking at #1. Between his dumbass decisions on the field and his trouble with the law off the field, I just could not convince myself to pick him at #1 if I was a GM. Jameis Winston will be playing grown men now and they won't have any problem exposing his weaknesses. Marriota is the safer pick and I wouldn't be surprised to see him have a more successful career, as long as Cleveland doesn't trade up to get him

Agreed. Any QB who goes to Cleveland is screwed.

 

[ulukinatme]

I was addressing the accusation of rape that YOU brought up whatever its all good. I'd be willing to bet a ton that Winston is at the very least a moderately successful QB in the NFL. He is 100x the competitor and leader that Jamarcus Russell is and NFL scouts seem to agree.

NFL scouts agree about a lot of things, including thinking that Jamarcus Russell was going to be a phenomenal athlete at the next level. Sometimes scouts can't look past the measurables and see the total picture.

 

[woolybug25]

You didn't say you thought he raped a girl (which by the way holy cow even assuming that this means you think its 50% more likely that he raped her than not, where are you getting that level of confidence from in the facts?). You said he raped a girl.

I stated an opinion.

"Oh.... and rape a girl" = opinion

"He was also convicted of rape" = stated fact

See the difference?

Comparing that to listing all of the discretions in a marginalizing way while completely removing the most egregious act is on a completely different scope. Hell, if I would have simply added a "?" at the end of my sentence, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Intellectually dishonesty is drastically different than punctuation error.

 

[pkt77242]

You didn't say you thought he raped a girl (which by the way holy cow even assuming that this means you think its 50% more likely that he raped her than not, where are you getting that level of confidence from in the facts?). You said he raped a girl.

Even the DA has said on the record that bad things happened that night, but that he didn't have enough evidence to prosecute. Well we don't have the evidence to prosecute because of the shitty ass investigation done by the TPD.

JV: One of the parts of the segment on Winston that stood out to me was when State Attorney Willie Meggs said, “I think I did not have sufficient evidence to prove that he sexually assaulted her against her will. I think things that happened there that night were not good.” What was your interpretation of what he meant by “not good”?

KD: We were told by both Meggs and his assistant DA, Georgia Cappleman, that they felt something traumatic happened between Winston and Erica that night, but they didn’t have enough evidence to charge him. Meggs said to us that if he’d been in charge of the investigation he would very likely have been able to find Winston and his teammates within 24 hours, rather than the months it took the Tallahassee Police Department, and could have very possibly gathered the evidence right away.

Hunting Ground director: Erica Kinsman, Jameis Winston rape accusation | The MMQB with Peter King

 

[NDdomer2]

All he did was play around with a BB gun with some friends, yell "fuck her right in the pussy" standing on a table, and shoplift crab legs which we don't even know the real story of.

EDIT: my page hadnt refreshed in a while, im late to this party

 

[ACamp1900]

So I'm guessing the most common draft day party food today will be crab legs....

 

[greyhammer90]

I stated an opinion.

"Oh.... and rape a girl" = opinion

"He was also convicted of rape" = stated fact

See the difference?

Comparing that to listing all of the discretions in a marginalizing way while completely removing the most egregious act is on a completely different scope. Hell, if I would have simply added a "?" at the end of my sentence, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Intellectually dishonesty is drastically different than punctuation error.

That's not how English works...

"In my opinion, he raped a girl." or "He probably raped a girl" or "I think he raped that girl" = opinions (technically the "probably" example is also a stated fact but I would've let that slide since it opens up the possibility that he didn't do it.)

"He raped a girl." or "He was convicted of rape." = stated facts

Regardless, I think your opinion is pretty baseless.

Even the DA has said on the record that bad things happened that night, but that he didn't have enough evidence to prosecute. Well we don't have the evidence to prosecute because of the shitty ass investigation done by the TPD.

Nobody's saying the investigation was done correctly. I think a big difference here is what we think happened with the TPD. You seem to think that there was some sort of a cover-up, that TPD had evidence of the rape claim but covered it up. I think it's more likely that TPD ignored the complaint without any knowledge of its truth or falsity. These are both horrible indictments of the TPD, but in one of them Winston was just as much the victim of their incompetence because he lost the ability to clear his name.

Also, it's going to take more than the District Attorney saying something vaguely threatening and passing the buck to make me immediately assume that someone committed one of the worst crimes imaginable. "Bad things happened that night" sounds like typical state prosecutor BS to me.

 

[connor_in]

You guys remember when we used to discuss football?


SIGH...Man, those were the days, huh?

 

[IrishLion]

If I'm a GM, I'm not drafting Winston when Mariota is right there.

Sure, Mariota is going to need more time to develop and learn the offense... but he's also not a chronic trouble maker. He's a guy that you don't need to have any reservations about when making him the face of your franchise.

Winston might be NFL-ready at a quicker pace... but you're also going to need to protect him more than most rookies, and you're going to need special handlers, and veterans are going to have to be in his ear more than most rookies, you're going to have more of a media circus around your franchise, etc. etc.

Winston could end up being a phenomenal QB... but Mariota isn't so far behind that the headaches make it worth it.

I'm taking Mariota 100% of the time.

 

[greyhammer90]

If I'm a GM, I'm not drafting Winston when Mariota is right there.

Sure, Mariota is going to need more time to develop and learn the offense... but he's also not a chronic trouble maker. He's a guy that you don't need to have any reservations about when making him the face of your franchise.

Winston might be NFL-ready at a quicker pace... but you're also going to need to protect him more than most rookies, and you're going to need special handlers, and veterans are going to have to be in his ear more than most rookies, you're going to have more of a media circus around your franchise, etc. etc.

Winston could end up being a phenomenal QB... but Mariota isn't so far behind that the headaches make it worth it.

I'm taking Mariota 100% of the time.

One thing that I think is interesting is that Tampa Bay has the number 1 spot. Considering that I think Winston's "dumbness" (immaturity) is a major issue, I would be much more comfortable drafting him outside the state where all his friends are.

 

[IrishLion]

One thing that I think is interesting is that Tampa Bay have the number 1 spot. Considering that I think Winston's "dumbness" (immaturity) is a major issue, I would be much more comfortable drafting him outside the state where all his friends are.

That's a good point... separate him from the environment that fosters his idiocy.

But the lure to have the "home-town" guy is stronger than almost anything (except in the case of Jacksonville/Tebow). Tampa doesn't care if he's close to the environment that results in trouble. They'll just put more handlers on his tail everywhere he goes and try to cancel it out.

 

[woolybug25]

That's not how English works...

"In my opinion, he raped a girl." or "He probably raped a girl" or "I think he raped that girl" = opinions (technically the "probably" example is also a stated fact but I would've let that slide since it opens up the possibility that he didn't do it.)

"He raped a girl." or "He was convicted of rape." = stated facts

Regardless, I think your opinion is pretty baseless.

They are not the same thing, again... you are confusing a punctuation error with intellectual dishonesty. Completely separate things.

You don't have any idea if my comment was baseless. There is no possible way that you could know that.

Just trying to get a rise out of me again, I see.... Cool, dude.

 

[greyhammer90]

They are not the same thing, again... you are confusing a punctuation error with intellectual dishonesty. Completely separate things.

You don't have any idea if my comment was baseless. There is no possible way that you could know that.

It's intellectually dishonest to take a scenario that has a 50% or 90% chance of being true and stating it as fact for the purpose of your argument. If you don't see why I really don't know what to say.

Just trying to get a rise out of me again, I see.... Cool, dude.

lol wut.

When have I ever tried to get a rise out of you, ever? I can only think of one time I openly told you to go away and in that situation you were trolling hard.

 

[dublinirish]

One thing that I think is interesting is that Tampa Bay has the number 1 spot. Considering that I think Winston's "dumbness" (immaturity) is a major issue, I would be much more comfortable drafting him outside the state where all his friends are.

yeah the kid needs to go to a program with a winning tradition and possibly somewhere that he could sit for a year and learn from a mentor. he ain't gonna get anything good in tampa. you would think after the Jay Cutty years in Chicago Lovie would have learnt a few things about leadership that is required in QB's

 

[woolybug25]

It's intellectually dishonest to take a scenario that has a 50% chance of being true at best and stating it as fact for the purpose of your argument. If you don't see why I really don't know what to say.



lol wut.

When have I ever tried to get a rise out of you, ever? I can only think of one time I openly told you to go away and in that situation you were trolling hard.

I didn't state it as a fucking fact, for christ's sake! You took it that way, you were incorrect. If how I wrote it gave you that impression, my apologies. But that is not the definition of intellectual dishonesty. It just isn't.

"Intellectual dishonesty is a failure to apply standards of rational evaluation that one is aware of, usually in a self-serving fashion. If one judges others more critically than oneself, that is intellectually dishonest."

Whatever dude.

 

[ulukinatme]

If a woman told Jameis "No," would Jameis be smart enough to know to stop?

 

[IrishLion]

If a woman told Jameis "No," would Jameis be smart enough to know to stop?

Idk, but he could get with Bud Light and they could figure it out together.

 

[greyhammer90]

Idk, but he could get with Bud Light and they could figure it out together.

Like most of America's troubles, it turns out Bud Light is the source of the problem.

 

[ulukinatme]

Jameis seems more like a Busch guy to me.

 

[pkt77242]

It's intellectually dishonest to take a scenario that has a 50% chance of being true at best and stating it as fact for the purpose of your argument. If you don't see why I really don't know what to say.



lol wut.

When have I ever tried to get a rise out of you, ever? I can only think of one time I openly told you to go away and in that situation you were trolling hard.

Speaking of being intellectually dishonest. Um, from where are you getting that number?

 

[RDU Irish]

yeah the kid needs to go to a program with a winning tradition and possibly somewhere that he could sit for a year and learn from a mentor. he ain't gonna get anything good in tampa. you would think after the Jay Cutty years in Chicago Lovie would have learnt a few things about leadership that is required in QB's

No freaking kidding.

TB locking in on Winston cracks me up. Neither him nor Mariotta are worthy of top 10 picks IMO, just such a weak QB class and sooo many teams in need of a franchise QB that they are going to reach ridiculously... and then be forced to play them way too soon instead of seasoning them on the bench.

I think Mariotta has way better chance of success but those odds decrease if he is forced to play this year instead of holding a clipboard for one or two seasons before getting his chance. As such, I would look at someone like Petty later in the draft to groom a few years before looking for a quick fix. QBs need time.

 

[dublinirish]

i'd love to see Petty go to the Saints and learn from Brees, kid could be a stud there

 

[pkt77242]

I really hope that my Vikings trade down and get a few more picks.

Though it looks like the Vikings won't trade Peterson, part of me wants him to be traded as long as a good pick can had for him (2nd round pick). It is never a good thing to have a player in the locker room who doesn't want to be there, especially one of your star players as it creates a huge distraction.

 

[pkt77242]

The final PFT mock draft | ProFootballTalk

An interesting mock draft. I have no idea why Perriman is going so high in so many mock drafts. He is not a good route runner and he drops way too many passes.

 

[IrishLion]

No freaking kidding.

TB locking in on Winston cracks me up. Neither him nor Mariotta are worthy of top 10 picks IMO, just such a weak QB class and sooo many teams in need of a franchise QB that they are going to reach ridiculously... and then be forced to play them way too soon instead of seasoning them on the bench.

I think Mariotta has way better chance of success but those odds decrease if he is forced to play this year instead of holding a clipboard for one or two seasons before getting his chance. As such, I would look at someone like Petty later in the draft to groom a few years before looking for a quick fix. QBs need time.

Idk, a guy like Petty might have a better chance than Winston or Mariota of playing right away, simply because it's likely that he falls into a much better situation a bit later in the draft.

It makes me think of Andy Dalton and the Bengals. Dalton started as a rookie, and has been a serviceable QB, because he was a second-round pick for a team that had a solid foundation and system already in place. The same could happen with Petty, but idk if there are any QB-needy teams drafting in the late first round, or any non-trainwrecks drafting in the early second round.