'16 CA QB Ian Book (Notre Dame Signed NLI)

[greyhammer90]

Wait, were people still clamoring for Hendrix in 2013?? I thought it was clear by then that Hendrix was not a P5 quarterback (and to be fair, he wasn't a G5 QB either https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/andrew-hendrix-1.html)

I thought people were wanting Zaire to get in, until he got mono his freshman year.

It might not have been that USC game, it might have been one of the Stanford games. Either way, there was a very loud contingent of ND fans that wanted to move away from Rees for Hendrix because of his higher level of athleticism and arm strength. Then Hendrix actually played and... *yakety sax music starts playing in the distance*

 

[InKellyWeTrust]

The disappointing part about all of this is Kelly's complete inability to identify, recruit, and develop an elite QB at ND. Our best QBs under Kelly have been 2 x 3* relatively short, unathletic white guys with suspect arm strength. I'm not trying to bash Kelly because I think he is a hell of a coach. Also not bashing Rees or Book because they maximized their talent. I just wish we could find that guy.

Edit: you can argue Kizer was the best but his teams had less success so difficult comparison.

 

[ThePiombino]

A lazy answer but the truth: I'll let the coaching staff that has forgotten more about football than I'll ever know, that sees every single rep thrown by these guys, and that has previously shown that they are willing to pull an under-performing QB make that decision.

Obviously I want PJ to take the starting job. That means he's better than Book, which has exciting implications given his arm and athleticism. But calling for PJ to start or for Book to move on based on the information at hand is basically just wishing that PJ would be better than Book. It's putting the cart before the horse in a way that only fans are capable of doing. We're not comparing Book with PJ, we're comparing Book with our idealized version of PJ that probably does not exist.

The most recent II podcast gave the best comparison by saying that PJ is like Andrew Hendrix when Tommy Rees was our starter. People were clamoring for Hendrix because he had a big arm, was athletic, and had previously shown some flashes of both in scrimmage-like situations. Then he comes in for a whole second half against USC and everyone realized that Rees was the reason we had an offense at all.

Bottom line: There's a reason the starter is the starter and despite what most people on here bemoan it's usually not that the coach feels bad about benching the older kid.

You make some compelling arguments, but I can't agree with the bolded. The situations may have been similar (game manager vs. POTENTIAL); however, no one will ever confuse PJ for Hendrix. PJ did some dirty stuff in HS vs. very good competition. He has also proven that he can throw a ball. Hendrix was one of the worst passers I've seen in gold helmet. Let's give PJ a little more credit than that lol

 

[zelezo vlk]

It might not have been that USC game, it might have been one of the Stanford games. Either way, there was a very loud contingent of ND fans that wanted to move away from Rees for Hendrix because of his higher level of athleticism and arm strength. Then Hendrix actually played and... *yakety sax music starts playing in the distance*

Hendrix in the 2013 SC game is probably the worst quarterback play I've ever seen.

I think the dude's a doctor now, which is fine by me.

 

[snoopdog]

I'll try and not make this sound like a fanboi hot take:

I know ND & Book can win 11 games a year, basically every year now, that's great. Well I'm kinda over that.

ND has some special offensive players coming in, the kind you need to win an NC They also have some elite lineman in the pipeline. I'm all for a 11-2 or a even a 10-3 season in '20 to make a run in '21 when the schedule is set up to make that run.

Football is usually a win now sport. That's one of the things that makes baseball interresting to me. Teams can tell their fans they are blowing it up and on a multi year plan, build a contender through a youth movement. Just watched the Cubs & Astros do just that.

Book's never winning an NC as a starter at ND. Love the guy but he doesn't have the raw physical skills to beat you 3 ways. I don't know if Phil is the next Randall Cunningham but that's the kind of player he was for 3 years vs way above average competition in HS. If you want to win an NC, you have to hope Phil gets starter snaps asap. Because what makes guys great in college isn't that they were 5*'s in HS, it's talent (regardless of stars) and snaps. Difference makers get snaps. That's why there are 0* / 2* / 3* guys drafted in the first two rounds in every NFL draft = becuz they weren't "good enough" to get offered by an elite football factory and luckily for them, ended up some place where they got 2-3-4 years of snaps.

Phil needs snaps and I need a National Championship.

I'm not calling on Kelly to make a change right now. I'd like to think I'd have the sack to do it if I was ND's HC but there are politics, pressures and realities that are way above my pay grade. So I'll secretly hope for a tweeked ankle or maybe a dislocated finger on QB1's right hand.

. . . and just to be clear, Phil goes in the draft after the '21 season and Tyler Buchner starts as a RS Fr. cuz he needs snaps too. He'll be playing with elite talent that's experienced too.

Only problem is, if PJ plays next year and plays really well, he can go straight to the NFL. Which leaves Clark, Pyne and a PWO battling it out for snaps for the 21 season.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Only problem is, if PJ plays next year and plays really well, he can go straight to the NFL. Which leaves Clark, Pyne and a PWO battling it out for snaps for the 21 season.

Buchner unless he were to decommit

 

[Irish#1]

Only problem is, if PJ plays next year and plays really well, he can go straight to the NFL. Which leaves Clark, Pyne and a PWO battling it out for snaps for the 21 season.

Now were worrying about PJ leaving for the NFL next year. You have to admit, this is a entertaining thread. lol

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

Now were worrying about PJ leaving for the NFL next year. You have to admit, this is a entertaining thread. lol

Lol I was going to say hot mess, but I guess some could call that entertaining.

We have been fans of the backup QB for too long as ND fans. I wish BK could find HIS guy who can be a stud for more than once season.

I don't think this situation has the same outcome as BW. Book has shown too much ability in the past to be dismissed, IMO, whereas Wimbush was a shaky passer at best from the beginning. We've seen this offense hum with Book at QB before.

Only way PJ gets his first start is injury or if we lose another game, IMO, and Book shoulders the most blame for it.

 

[ND88]

I haven’t read/heard one analyst say that they thought Jurkovec is ready. Fans have latched onto that one great long ball which was a beautiful pass. Reminded me of when Dayne Crist hit John Goodman on a long one in mop up duty vs Wazzu in the Alamo Dome.

Wimbush also threw an amazing long ball in first series as QB, I believe.

 

[ACamp1900]

Wait, there hose among us who are convinced PJ is the guy?? I mean, I've seen nothing to convince me he's anything but the next in a long line of hyped ND QB recruits that doesn't deliver here for whatever reason... Not saying I expect that from him but yeah, I need to see it and thus far,...... still waiting. Did I miss something?

 

[T Town Tommy]

Book gives the Irish the best opportunity to win now. Enough to make the title game? Probably not. But throwing PJ out there at the risk of sacrificing a season isn't the answer either. Lose a couple of games and the only thread being posted out here will be the Kelly Revisited thread. To me it's fairly obvious. Barring injury or a couple of losses, Book will probably play out the year. You go into the spring hoping that PJ has progressed enough to overtake Book for the starting job. If not, maybe PJ isn't the answer.

 

[Rack Em]

A lazy answer but the truth: I'll let the coaching staff that has forgotten more about football than I'll ever know, that sees every single rep thrown by these guys, and that has previously shown that they are willing to pull an under-performing QB make that decision.

Obviously I want PJ to take the starting job. That means he's better than Book, which has exciting implications given his arm and athleticism. But calling for PJ to start or for Book to move on based on the information at hand is basically just wishing that PJ would be better than Book. It's putting the cart before the horse in a way that only fans are capable of doing. We're not comparing Book with PJ, we're comparing Book with our idealized version of PJ that probably does not exist.

The most recent II podcast gave the best comparison by saying that PJ is like Andrew Hendrix when Tommy Rees was our starter. People were clamoring for Hendrix because he had a big arm, was athletic, and had previously shown some flashes of both in scrimmage-like situations. Then he comes in for a whole second half against USC and everyone realized that Rees was the reason we had an offense at all.

Bottom line: There's a reason the starter is the starter and despite what most people on here bemoan it's usually not that the coach feels bad about benching the older kid.

I'm still clamoring for Andrew Hendrix! And it's 2019!

Give me Hendrix right now. On this team. On Saturday. Under Center. Breaking necks and cashing checks. Tell Ian Book to go crack a book!

 

[StPaul_Irish]

ask yourselves this. Who is the best QB on NDs roster. If your answer is anything but QB2, you are not a real ND fan.

 

[Wild Bill]

A lazy answer but the truth: I'll let the coaching staff that has forgotten more about football than I'll ever know, that sees every single rep thrown by these guys, and that has previously shown that they are willing to pull an under-performing QB make that decision.

Coaching staffs are often wrong about personnel decisions or are internally conflicted, i.e., head coach, O coordinator, QB coach all have different opinions or goals. I wouldn't be shocked if there were a couple coaches on the staff who quietly believe PJ should be on the field with that arm.

Pulling a QB that is clearly underperforming for a backup (Winbush/Book) or rolling with a hot hand after an injury (Zaire/Kiser) is different than evaluating talent in practice and making a the decision to go with unproven potential over proven above average play (Bryant/Lawrence at Clemson).

Obviously I want PJ to take the starting job. That means he's better than Book, which has exciting implications given his arm and athleticism. But calling for PJ to start or for Book to move on based on the information at hand is basically just wishing that PJ would be better than Book. It's putting the cart before the horse in a way that only fans are capable of doing. We're not comparing Book with PJ, we're comparing Book with our idealized version of PJ that probably does not exist.

Fans and the Clemson staff as mentioned above. Georgia rolled with Fromm over Eason, Bama benched a title winner in favor of a freshman, Texas went with Ehlinger over Buechele (this was a bit more complicated), etc.

Bottom line: There's a reason the starter is the starter and despite what most people on here bemoan it's usually not that the coach feels bad about benching the older kid.

Often the reason is that coaches, like most people, do not like to take risks. Book is the safe play here. He's a good game manager and a proven winner. He's the guy that's going to manage the game against Virginia and allow your defense a chance to takeover. He's not the guy that's going to connect on a couple throws to win the game against Georgia. PJ is probably the guy that may force a few throws against Virginia, giving them a chacne to put the game away before the defense takes over. However, he may also be the kid who makes a few difference making throws against Georgia too.

If you're Kelly, 11 wins with an average starter is probably better than 9 wins with a risk taking gunslinger.

Overall, you're right, the staff knows more than fans. That's obvious. What's not so obvious is the coach's end game, the degree of separation between two players, whether their is dissent among the staff, team etc.

 

[ACamp1900]

ask yourselves this. Who is the best QB on NDs roster. If your answer is anything but QB2, you are not a real ND fan.

Ah yes, I forgot.

Sometimes I forget myself... I apologize to all and will now see myself out.

 

[InKellyWeTrust]

Coaching staffs are often wrong about personnel decisions or are internally conflicted, i.e., head coach, O coordinator, QB coach all have different opinions or goals. I wouldn't be shocked if there were a couple coaches on the staff who quietly believe PJ should be on the field with that arm.

Pulling a QB that is clearly underperforming for a backup (Winbush/Book) or rolling with a hot hand after an injury (Zaire/Kiser) is different than evaluating talent in practice and making a the decision to go with unproven potential over proven above average play (Bryant/Lawrence at Clemson).



Fans and the Clemson staff as mentioned above. Georgia rolled with Fromm over Eason, Bama benched a title winner in favor of a freshman, Texas went with Ehlinger over Buechele (this was a bit more complicated), etc.



Often the reason is that coaches, like most people, do not like to take risks. Book is the safe play here. He's a good game manager and a proven winner. He's the guy that's going to manage the game against Virginia and allow your defense a chance to takeover. He's not the guy that's going to connect on a couple throws to win the game against Georgia. PJ is probably the guy that may force a few throws against Virginia, giving them a chacne to put the game away before the defense takes over. However, he may also be the kid who makes a few difference making throws against Georgia too.

If you're Kelly, 11 wins with an average starter is probably better than 9 wins with a risk taking gunslinger.

Overall, you're right, the staff knows more than fans. That's obvious. What's not so obvious is the coach's end game, the degree of separation between two players, whether their is dissent among the staff, team etc.

This is a great post.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Ah yes, I forgot.

Sometimes I forget myself... I apologize to all and will now see myself out.

REAL fans say it's QB3 and diehards will tell you it's one of the unsigned verbal commitments.

 

[InKellyWeTrust]

REAL fans say it's QB3 and diehards will tell you it's one of the unsigned verbal commitments.

Buchner all day! (no italics)

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Buchner all day!

I am >0% guilty of this.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Book gives the Irish the best opportunity to win now. Enough to make the title game? Probably not. But throwing PJ out there at the risk of sacrificing a season isn't the answer either. Lose a couple of games and the only thread being posted out here will be the Kelly Revisited thread. To me it's fairly obvious. Barring injury or a couple of losses, Book will probably play out the year. You go into the spring hoping that PJ has progressed enough to overtake Book for the starting job. If not, maybe PJ isn't the answer.

Last year, both national championship teams had first year starting QB's who ended up taking the job from a more experienced starter. Kelly Bryant started all of 2017 and was ultimately pulled after A&M in favor of Trevor Lawrence. Jalen Hurts started almost every game in 2016 and 2017, only to be pulled midway through the national championship game to make way for Tua Tagovailoa. Both teams were noticeably better with their young, less experienced starters.

Book is the safe choice. The safe choice is not always the best choice.

 

[Wingman Ray]

Book is the safe choice. The safe choice is not always the best choice.

Because of Books inability to throw more than 20 yards, it allows teams to play closer and less deep coverage with one or two safetys. This works great when you play the BGs of the world but not so good when their athletes are equal or even a little better than your athletes. Takes away any chance of the lucky play or pulling out of the hat. Hence ND vs Clemson.

Until ND gets a QB that can stretch the D, you wont beat the very good teams.

Fortunately, looks like ND has played the only very good team on its schedule this year. However, USC will be interesting with their athletes and being able to stay within 20 yards of the line of scrimmage.

 

[koonja]

Imagine our running game if safeties actually had to play back.

 

[Irish#1]

Outside of mop up duty or injury, the only way Book gets replaced is if we are trailing late in the third or fourth quarter and haven't shown any signs of moving the ball.

If that happens, when Crusader see his anointed saviour trot out, he's going to be so excited he'll spill his Old Milwaukee all over his Nachos Bell Grande.

 

[BeatSC]

Outside of mop up duty or injury, the only way Book gets replaced is if we are trailing late in the third or fourth quarter and haven't shown any signs of moving the ball.

If that happens, when Crusader see his anointed saviour trot out, he's going to be so excited he'll spill his Old Milwaukee all over his Nachos Bell Grande.

J can throw the long ball and I could see him coming in and throwing bombs and our guys going up and pulling them down. I have to think playing WR with Book as your QB is not that fun compared to someone who can drop them in over 50 yards.

 

[BobbyMac]

Outside of mop up duty or injury, the only way Book gets replaced is if we are trailing late in the third or fourth quarter and haven't shown any signs of moving the ball.

If that happens, when Crusader see his anointed saviour trot out, he's going to be so excited he'll spill his Old Milwaukee all over his Nachos Bell Grande.

Once again. . . Phil is not a savior. 11-1 teams don't needed saved. Phil's just ND's best chance to win a NC. The sooner he gets all the snaps, the better he'll be when it matters.

And I when the time comes, I'll spill a Phantom Bride all over my Portillo's Beef. I'm a lil more top shelf than I let on. If forced to go down a rung or two, I spill a Michelob on my White Castles.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Last year, both national championship teams had first year starting QB's who ended up taking the job from a more experienced starter. Kelly Bryant started all of 2017 and was ultimately pulled after A&M in favor of Trevor Lawrence. Jalen Hurts started almost every game in 2016 and 2017, only to be pulled midway through the national championship game to make way for Tua Tagovailoa. Both teams were noticeably better with their young, less experienced starters.

Book is the safe choice. The safe choice is not always the best choice.

My take is the fact that BK has had a track record in the past of going to the backup fairly quickly. That's how Book got where he is. But there must be a reason that he hasn't gone to PJ yet.

 

[Irish YJ]

My take is the fact that BK has had a track record in the past of going to the backup fairly quickly. That's how Book got where he is. But there must be a reason that he hasn't gone to PJ yet.

My thoughts too. Honestly I'd love to have stud come in and light things up, but it's either 1) PJ just isn't that good, or ready yet, or 2) BK is being to conservative / loyal. Or a mixture of both. BK has been far more aggressive in changing QBs, than changing WRs and some other positions.

From what we've actually seen and heard, I just don't think PJ is there yet. Not sure he's the guy we hoped we were getting. I honestly think the entire O with the exception of Kmet is pretty mediocre. You could insert Tua or Lawrence, and still not win a NC.

 

[ND88]

My thoughts too. Honestly I'd love to have stud come in and light things up, but it's either 1) PJ just isn't that good, or ready yet, or 2) BK is being to conservative / loyal. Or a mixture of both. BK has been far more aggressive in changing QBs, than changing WRs and some other positions.

From what we've actually seen and heard, I just don't think PJ is there yet. Not sure he's the guy we hoped we were getting. I honestly think the entire O with the exception of Kmet is pretty mediocre. You could insert Tua or Lawrence, and still not win a NC.

Rees was pulled and came back in. I imagine that was pretty tough on the pride to lose the starting spot. Would Book have the same wherewithal and put the team above all else? This is all hypothetical speak, because no one really knows what the coaches will do.

 

[Irish YJ]

Rees was pulled and came back in. I imagine that was pretty tough on the pride to lose the starting spot. Would Book have the same wherewithal and put the team above all else? This is all hypothetical speak, because no one really knows what the coaches will do.

I believe Book would be fine. He got the job that way, and knows he can lose the job that way too. If I were him though, and lost my job, I'd transfer at the end of the season. He may not be a superstar, but he's more than good enough to start for a lot of P5 schools.

Purely my opinion, while I know he'll never be superstar, I do think he suffering from subpar OL play, subpar WRs, and a non-existent RB threat. We know he can be a ~70% guy (from last year), and I'm not buying simple BK 2nd year regression. I know all the OL apologists want to blame RBs and TEs for the failures in pass protection, but the OL has been pretty bad in the running game too. Given the amount of talent we're supposed to have, even with mediocre RBs, we should be a lot better at Power Success Rate. And that has nothing to do with Ss being able to stay within 20 yards of the LOS.

 

[Luckylucci]

Ya just gotta watch the film. Book is the sole reason production is being left on the field in enough situations (not all) for it to be an issue. Enough for there to be a lot of questions asked and criticism brought up. His comp pct. is irrelevant when he’s taking 5 yd sacks by running out of bounds (for no reason) or getting 4 yards on a scramble when he has Kmet down the seam for a TD. There are too many dead plays.