'16 CA LB Caleb Kelly (Oklahoma Verbal)

[koonja]

Last year we wasted a redshirt on him. Would have made more sense to reshirt him last year and give him snaps this year. Anyways if he is concerned about BVG then how can he not be concerned about Oklahoma coach?

Comparing us and Oklahoma. We gave up 24 points per game Oklahoma gave up 22. Not to mention we played arguably a lot tougher schedule because Oklahoma went up against TCU back ups, Baylor back up QB and Oklahoma State Back up QB. We also had to play to offenses that were dynamic in Stanford and USC.

Thanks but I'm asking specifically about this year and looking for confirmation that he didn't log a play.

 

[IrishFanJMercy]

Thanks but I'm asking specifically about this year and looking for confirmation that he didn't log a play.

He did not play.

 

[goldandblue]

Can anyone confirm we completely spared his RS? We didn't put him in for some stupid extra point block in the bowl game did we?

I have reviewed every participation report from the season. I do not see Hayes listed on any so he should have received a redshirt.

 

[BeauBenken]

When you have 500 threads bitching about the coach and another million people whining about shit they don't understand on Twitter of course he is going to have reservations.

Also, I can tell you that it is a 100% verifiable, certified fact that there are current commits and their parents that read this board. It's the main reason it actually bothers me when people make utter fools of themselves and rip on players/coaches.

Fo real.

Not to mention it just looks sad from another fan's perspective.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Didn't it take like 3 years for BVG's defense to pickup at UGA. Once they picked it up it was deadly I believe.

 

[gkIrish]

When you have 500 threads bitching about the coach and another million people whining about shit they don't understand on Twitter of course he is going to have reservations.

Also, I can tell you that it is a 100% verifiable, certified fact that there are current commits and their parents that read this board. It's the main reason it actually bothers me when people make utter fools of themselves and rip on players/coaches.

A recruit that bases their decision in any way off of message board banter is not making their decision for the right reasons IMO.

 

[BobbyMac]

When you have 500 threads bitching about the coach and another million people whining about shit they don't understand on Twitter of course he is going to have reservations.

Also, I can tell you that it is a 100% verifiable, certified fact that there are current commits and their parents that read this board. It's the main reason it actually bothers me when people make utter fools of themselves and rip on players/coaches.

After hanging out with a lot of players and parents over New Years I can tell you this is even more true than I thought. I'd say it's a fact that IE is the #1 source of info for recruits and their families. They are most definitely watching.

 

[koonja]

Greg Bryant if you're reading this, nothing but love. DM me.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Didn't it take like 3 years for BVG's defense to pickup at UGA. Once they picked it up it was deadly I believe.

Nope. Year two saw the big jump, but he had success right away.

2001 - 17th in scoring defense, 5th nationally against the run
2002 - 4th nationally in scoring defense
2003 - 3rd nationally in scoring, 4 in total defense, 6th in passing
2004 - 8th and 9th in scoring and total defense

BTW.....He only gave up more than 30 points one time while at UGA.

 

[dublinirish]

After hanging out with a lot of players and parents over New Years I can tell you this is even more true than I thought. I'd say it's a fact that IE is the #1 source of info for recruits and their families. They are most definitely watching.

All those Google Ad's dollars paying off then.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Nope. Year two saw the big jump, but he had success right away.

2001 - 17th in scoring defense, 5th nationally against the run
2002 - 4th nationally in scoring defense
2003 - 3rd nationally in scoring, 4 in total defense, 6th in passing
2004 - 8th and 9th in scoring and total defense

BTW.....He only gave up more than 30 points one time while at UGA.

Damn. Well Caleb if you are reading this, it just proves that Notre Dame needs better players to run this defense.

 

[IrishLax]

A recruit that bases their decision in any way off of message board banter is not making their decision for the right reasons IMO.

To be fair, message boards probably communicate overall fan sentiment better than any other source... you have a good combination of fans of all different feathers.

So it's easy to gauge confidence/insecurity, pessimism/optimism, etc. relative to the team, the program, the coaches, and the players.

To use a non-ND example, you go look at Texas A&M boards where everyone wants everyone fired and it would have to give you pause as a recruit.

 

[IrishLax]

As for Van Gorder, I'm 100% convinced that there are some scheme issues. I'm not a smart enough of a football guy to really break down those issues, so I'll let a smarter person opine on that like I've seen on ISD, etc. They exist, and they generally have to do with the variability/complexity getting in the way of the players being in the best position to maximize their strengths.

WITH THAT BEING SAID... the biggest issues are personnel driven. So I don't know if I blame BVG for not molding his scheme better to the players he has, or if I blame Diaco/Cooks for just a laughably pathetic job of recruiting from '12 onward in their areas of responsibility. The cupboard was left really fucking bare, and BVG did everything imaginable to add 1) emergency fillers in the '14 class 2) tons of players we haven't really yet gotten a chance to see in the '15 class.

Remember, Diaco won with nearly 100% Weis recruits + a star player he signed in '11. Whereas offense has built depth and talent every year since Kelly has been here, it's impossible to look at the defensive recruiting and think the same. They landed a couple ELITE players but left insane depth holes at other positions.

 

[gkIrish]

To be fair, message boards probably communicate overall fan sentiment better than any other source... you have a good combination of fans of all different feathers.

So it's easy to gauge confidence/insecurity, pessimism/optimism, etc. relative to the team, the program, the coaches, and the players.

To use a non-ND example, you go look at Texas A&M boards where everyone wants everyone fired and it would have to give you pause as a recruit.

I understand that they are actually doing this. My point is that you are asking us to keep our opinions to ourselves so that we don't influence a recruit negatively. Two problems with this:

1) Every fan base out there has fans on both sides of basically every issue. Presumably recruits are looking at message boards of every school they are interested in. I mean there were Bama fans calling for Saban's head after they lost to OSU last year. So the overall effect should be neutral.

2) If there are indeed reasonable concerns with a coach (BVG, for example), is hiding those concerns the "right thing to do?" In other words, who are we to try and fool a recruit into thinking BVG is the best DC out there. I am a fan of the team, but I'm not willing to participate in misleading recruits into coming here. They are making an important decision and I want them to make the best decision for themselves. If Notre Dame is the right choice for them, what I write on a message board should not have any effect.

 

[koonja]

247:

“After the visit, I kind of got a better feel for everything,” “They had the academics, the football, the tradition. They have the people. They have great connections after football. It would be a smart decision to go there.”

“It was above my expectations,”“I thought it would be boring, no joke. All I heard was that it was boring and there isn’t a lot to do there. But after being there, I loved it. I had a great time talking with my host, linebacker Asmar Bilal. He was really cool and he made me really like everything about Notre Dame. Asmar and I talked a lot. He was saying that once you’re there, you’re set. He said the academics are a challenge, but it’s worth it. He said that they help you to become a better student and a better football player. He said that he’s so much better and well-rounded since he first got there.”

“They sent me that photo showing that I could be next in like behind Manti Te’o and Jaylon Smith,” said Kelly. “I thought that was the coolest recruiting photo I got. I’d never make a decision based on what two other players decided to do, but I just thought it was neat that I could follow in there footsteps and maybe be successful in college and then beyond that in the NFL. I mean, Jaylon has been awesome at Notre Dame. I’m pretty sure he’s going to the league and I won’t get the chance to play with him, but if I go there, it would be cool to start my own path and try and be the same guy he was.”

“Oklahoma has great people,” “A lot of the places were similar, but I really wanted to get to know the people better. They had good people. There is a Fresno connection. I hear about it all the time, but it’s not going to impact my decision. They are pretty good academically. It’s not Notre Dame, but it’s still strong academics and would offer a good degree. They also are a football powerhouse and have a lot to offer in that aspect.”

“I got home and thought about everything and thought about all the trips. It’s been a really hard decision. I still haven’t made one. I’m really struggling with everything. The problem is, nobody is helping me with the decision,”“I’m getting closer with everything, but I’m not there yet.”

“My mom says to make the best decision for me and make the right one,” “She says don’t follow the lead. Don’t do something because other people have done it. She said I have to be selfish and make the decision for me and me only. I’ll have to be at that school for a few years and I need to decide where I’m happiest and most comfortable. Her plan was to act like she loved each visit the same amount. She did that after every trip. She does that so she doesn’t push me toward any school. She genuinely wants me to pick the best school for me.”

“Well honestly, academics is rarely the top priority for the recruits,” “I’m just being honest. I’m a great student and I care a lot about education. For me, it’s a blend. I want great academics and great football. If I just wanted academics, I’d be going to Harvard or Yale or a similar school. That’s the case for all of us. Football has put us in a great position to play at the next level and get a degree from a great college. I’m not going to act like education is the only thing that matters. That just wouldn’t be honest.”

“I’m going to announce on Signing Day because I’m stubborn,”“Everyone said I’d be an early commit and I’d get it done, but I genuinely don’t know where I want to go yet. My thought is, try to decide in the next few weeks and then announce on Signing Day. I’ve made it this far, I might as well just wait it out. I’m going to sit down and really spend a few days and try to make a final decision after the in-home visits.”

 

[koonja]

Do we have any in homes with him yet? I thought we had exhausted those on kelly.

 

[OCIrish]

Lax, I can't rep you again, but that's good shit^^^^^!!!! I'm not firmly sold on BVG, and not because I don't think he's a good coach, but there are times I cannot figure out what he's thinking. I can say the same for Kelly as well, lol!!!

He runs an attacking scheme, which really resonates with kids.......everyone wants to attack. However, if you don't have the horses, you're going to run your system, but the results aren't always going to be there. I like Joe Schmidt, but athletically, he's not what we need at MLB......yes, he's almost always in a position to make a play, but more times than not, he just didn't make them. Not many times did Manti, be in position to make the play and not make it.

 

[IrishLax]

I understand that they are actually doing this. My point is that you are asking us to keep our opinions to ourselves so that we don't influence a recruit negatively. Two problems with this:

1) Every fan base out there has fans on both sides of basically every issue. Presumably recruits are looking at message boards of every school they are interested in. I mean there were Bama fans calling for Saban's head after they lost to OSU last year. So the overall effect should be neutral.

2) If there are indeed reasonable concerns with a coach (BVG, for example), is hiding those concerns the "right thing to do?" In other words, who are we to try and fool a recruit into thinking BVG is the best DC out there. I am a fan of the team, but I'm not willing to participate in misleading recruits into coming here. They are making an important decision and I want them to make the best decision for themselves. If Notre Dame is the right choice for them, what I write on a message board should not have any effect.

But see, that's not what I'm doing. I'm not asking that people censor themselves. I'm asking that people not act like doofuses.

We had a dude on here literally say "screw Will Fuller"... are you fucking kidding me? We had one of our better posters start an all caps thread with a bunch of exclamation points demanding firing of BVG. We had another poster start an all caps thread on Kelly leaving for no apparent reason.

I'm not saying people shouldn't post what they want to post, I'm asking that they not be morons about it.

 

[BeauBenken]

I understand that they are actually doing this. My point is that you are asking us to keep our opinions to ourselves so that we don't influence a recruit negatively. Two problems with this:

1) Every fan base out there has fans on both sides of basically every issue. Presumably recruits are looking at message boards of every school they are interested in. I mean there were Bama fans calling for Saban's head after they lost to OSU last year. So the overall effect should be neutral.

2) If there are indeed reasonable concerns with a coach (BVG, for example), is hiding those concerns the "right thing to do?" In other words, who are we to try and fool a recruit into thinking BVG is the best DC out there. I am a fan of the team, but I'm not willing to participate in misleading recruits into coming here. They are making an important decision and I want them to make the best decision for themselves. If Notre Dame is the right choice for them, what I write on a message board should not have any effect.

But see, that's not what I'm doing. I'm not asking that people censor themselves. I'm asking that people not act like doofuses.

We had a dude on here literally say "screw Will Fuller"... are you fucking kidding me? We had one of our better posters start an all caps thread with a bunch of exclamation points demanding firing of BVG. We had another poster start an all caps thread on Kelly leaving for no apparent reason.

I'm not saying people shouldn't post what they want to post, I'm asking that they not be morons about it.

And is that so hard to do?







...Well...apparently so.

 

[greyhammer90]

I'm not saying people shouldn't post what they want to post, I'm asking that they not be morons about it.

You say tomato...

 

[gkIrish]

But see, that's not what I'm doing. I'm not asking that people censor themselves. I'm asking that people not act like doofuses.

We had a dude on here literally say "screw Will Fuller"... are you fucking kidding me? We had one of our better posters start an all caps thread with a bunch of exclamation points demanding firing of BVG. We had another poster start an all caps thread on Kelly leaving for no apparent reason.

I'm not saying people shouldn't post what they want to post, I'm asking that they not be morons about it.

Okay I misunderstood your OP then, my bad. I agree with what you are saying.

 

[IrishLion]

“My mom says to make the best decision for me and make the right one,” “She says don’t follow the lead. Don’t do something because other people have done it. She said I have to be selfish and make the decision for me and me only. I’ll have to be at that school for a few years and I need to decide where I’m happiest and most comfortable. Her plan was to act like she loved each visit the same amount. She did that after every trip. She does that so she doesn’t push me toward any school. She genuinely wants me to pick the best school for me.”

It's awesome when parents recognize the value that ND offers and push their kids towards the Irish.

But this is a super-cool move too, IMO.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

But see, that's not what I'm doing. I'm not asking that people censor themselves. I'm asking that people not act like doofuses.

We had a dude on here literally say "screw Will Fuller"... are you fucking kidding me? We had one of our better posters start an all caps thread with a bunch of exclamation points demanding firing of BVG. We had another poster start an all caps thread on Kelly leaving for no apparent reason.

I'm not saying people shouldn't post what they want to post, I'm asking that they not be morons about it.

The real message here is, "Think about how your post will affect those reading it, instead of just how it feels to type it." Or, "Don't be an inconsiderate as$hole."

You don't have a right to vent here, period. IE isn't your personal fan therapy group. Posts either elevate the level of discourse around here, or they drag it down. If yours happens to fall into the latter category, you deserve to get blasted for it.

 

[Luckylucci]

As for Van Gorder, I'm 100% convinced that there are some scheme issues. I'm not a smart enough of a football guy to really break down those issues, so I'll let a smarter person opine on that like I've seen on ISD, etc. They exist, and they generally have to do with the variability/complexity getting in the way of the players being in the best position to maximize their strengths.

WITH THAT BEING SAID... the biggest issues are personnel driven. So I don't know if I blame BVG for not molding his scheme better to the players he has, or if I blame Diaco/Cooks for just a laughably pathetic job of recruiting from '12 onward in their areas of responsibility. The cupboard was left really fucking bare, and BVG did everything imaginable to add 1) emergency fillers in the '14 class 2) tons of players we haven't really yet gotten a chance to see in the '15 class.

Remember, Diaco won with nearly 100% Weis recruits + a star player he signed in '11. Whereas offense has built depth and talent every year since Kelly has been here, it's impossible to look at the defensive recruiting and think the same. They landed a couple ELITE players but left insane depth holes at other positions.

I'm not sure how we can look at a roster of Jaylon Smith, Cole Luke, KVR, Redfield, Shumate, Sheldon Day, Jarron Jones, Isaac Rochell, Nyles Morgan, Drue Tranquill, Greer Martini, Andrew Trumbetti, Romeo Okwara, Nick Watkins etc. and say there isn't any talent. Those players are talented. Its the coaches job to get the best out of his players and put them in a position to be successful. I highly doubt that at any point going forward we have a meaningful upgrade in talent on defense overall.

The highest rated player in the two cycles of 2015 and 16' classes, as of now, is Shaun Crawford at a composite of .9456. From 2012 onward, so 2012, 13', and 14' ND signed Jaylon Smith, Max Redfield, Nyles Morgan, Isaac Rochell, Elijah Shumate, and Sheldon Day, all rated higher. Lets basically call it a rating of .94+ rating. So in 3 years Diaco signed 6 and in 2 years, BVG will have signed 1, hopefully more, but he'll have to sign 3 (not sure if that happens) in order to get up to the avg. of 2 per year Diaco was at during this very poor recruiting effort he had. What would I rather have 2 per year or .5 per year?

A majority of the contributing players on this defense were recruited from 2012 onward. In fact a majority of that list, in the first paragraph, is Diaco players that are plenty capable of playing high level football.

To the depth point, that isn't a Diaco problem as much as it is a ND problem. Because ND doesn't oversign or kick underachieving players out we have to have a higher hit rate. We've lost a lot more players due to injury and early NFL draft on Defense than offense during this time period. Thats just the way it is, Diaco didnt make those rules and BVG is having to deal with them too, thats why we failed miserably last cycle to hit on the right number of true S targets. How many DE's did BVG bring in last cycle, 1, Bo Wallace who never made it to campus. 2 positions where we need more depth.

To the last bolded, that proves he's a good coach. He can take a group of players, get them to buy in, and be successful even though they may not have been perfect for the system or "his" guys. Diaco took talent and made it better. He had a group of lost and confused players that had never seen a successful system before. A lot of players spoke or have spoken about that since. Some that were playing different positions for the first time. I don't see too many players on this 10-3 team that BVG can say that about. If BVG had taken over that roster, I don't even want to know what would've happened or the excuses we'd have to come up with.

 

[IrishFanJMercy]

If Kelly and Jeffrey Mcculoch both want to come here does the staff take both?

 

[Southside Sully]

If Kelly and Jeffrey Mcculoch both want to come here does the staff take both?

This question gets asked daily. yes

 

[Booslum31]

If Kelly and Jeffrey Mcculoch both want to come here does the staff take both?

Even if they played the same position (which they don't), I would say YESSSS. Bring all the defense!

 

[NDVirginia19]

With Will and KVR leaving early, I think Yes

 

[Domina Nostra]

Even if they played the same position (which they don't), I would say YESSSS. Bring all the defense!

They could definitly play together.

 

[IrishLax]

I'm not sure how we can look at a roster of Jaylon Smith, Cole Luke, KVR, Redfield, Shumate, Sheldon Day, Jarron Jones, Isaac Rochell, Nyles Morgan, Drue Tranquill, Greer Martini, Andrew Trumbetti, Romeo Okwara, Nick Watkins etc. and say there isn't any talent. Those players are talented. Its the coaches job to get the best out of his players and put them in a position to be successful. I highly doubt that at any point going forward we have a meaningful upgrade in talent on defense overall.

I completely disagree. First of all, I typo'd '12 and meant to say '13. Diaco/Cooks still tried hard in '12, just had misses. It's really '13 where Diaco just literally stopped recruiting at one point and started looking for a HC gig, and '14 where he and Cooks really mailed it in.

And it's not about who Diaco/Cooks landed -- and I could go through and list why they shouldn't be given credit for a guy like KVR that he was allowed to borrow from offense only after failing to have any of their '12 class CB verbals AND opting to pass on other players when those guys were shaky AND having their class of '11 signees be poor players -- it's about the holes.

From '12 through '14 here is the haul at DB:

Elijah Shumate
CJ Prosise
John Turner
Nicky Baratti
Devin Butler
Rashad Kinlaw
Cole Luke
Max Redfield
Nick Watkins
Drue Tranquill

Teams typically recruit minimum 4 DBs a year. Diaco/Cooks only managed to sign 10 guys over three years. One of those immediately washed out, and one moved to offense (which is allegedly [although I don't necessarily believe it] because he was bad at safety). Another never should have had an offer and can't play. So now we're down to 7 functional bodies over three classes... because of nothing but poor recruiting of one flavor or another. Of those 7 bodies, you have 3 total CBs over three classes and 4 total safeties. Two of the safeties have never been healthy.

So BVG was left with 2 healthy bodies at safety and 3 healthy bodies at CB over THREE FULL RECRUITING CLASSES. That's so beyond excusable that I truly have no words to describe how horrible that recruiting is.

And the hilarious part is that as bad as that recruiting is, linebacker is even worse.

Jaylon Smith
Michael Deeb
Nyles Morgan
Greer Martini

Those are the only true LBs he signed in 3 years. Maybe you could add Randolph in there depending on how you want to classify him? Three years and he got four total guys... and the best part is that he had passed on Morgan before Brian Kelly stepped in and took over recruiting him. If up to Diaco, we very seriously could've ended up with just Deeb, Martini, and Smith over THREE FULL YEARS... like how the fuck is that even possible?

Contrast to BVG recruiting... signed 3 LBs in his very first class, one of which we already know is at least moderately competent. On track to sign another 2-4 LBs in this class. At DB, he inked 4 DBs last year (if you don't count Fertitta) and would've signed more if Cooks had done his job instead of having one foot out the door. He's going to sign another SEVEN DBs this year to try to make up for Diaco/Cooks... he's playing massive catchup. You don't need everyone to be a Jaylon Smith. What you need are a high quantity of athletes such that your ensured of depth and at least some of them panning out.

You cannot, CANNOT, CANNOT sign 1 LB a year and 3 DBs a year and pretend that everything is going to be OK. And you can't blame BVG for playing Schmidt when there was only one scholarship MIKE linebacker on the roster when he took over, and from the little we've seen from him he isn't any good. Martini was so much better than Morgan in limited run last year despite being completely ill-suited for the position from a physical standpoint.