Rumored Violations

[CarrollVermin]

I'm going to go ahead and believe that if we don't hear anything this week, the investigation turned up very bad things that will be released at a later time. If they do finish the hearings, maybe some players are released for time already served...wishful thinking I guess. Still ridiculous this process has gone on this long....so it's a bit worrying that some real bad news could be forthcoming.

Why do people jump to this conclusion. What ever it is that the investigation turned up, it HAS to go to the Honesty Committee to make a determination of what happened. I don't understand this logic. There is a group on campus that is set aside to determine the extent of what occurred and the punishment for it. The NCAA has nothing to do with this process (not saying that you have said that...just an observation from other posts). This is in the hands of a Dean somewhere who is choosing to sit on it. Until that person acts, there is nothing anyone can do about it.

 

[SoDakDomer]

Just spit balling here but perhaps a dean is sitting on this because they are unable to prove guilt. He feels there was some sort of cheating, maybe due to the fact that the students have not cooperated with the investigation (Rumor about non campus emails). So this dean sits on it for longer than he should as a form of punishment for what he feels is a violation that they can not prove. Probably false, but when something takes this long to settle peoples imaginations get the best of them.

 

[IrishLax]

I need a Jimmymac update. There has to be some scuttlebutt on campus.

I stopped actively trying to get information the moment it became clear that athletics people (and everyone else) is being actively kept in the dark. But the most intersting nugget of scuttlebutt to pop up recently is that the committees haven't been able to meet because (some of?) the professors in question conveniently keep making themselves unavailable at the time the committee can meet. Professors have the right to ask for a delay if they can't make it... this can actually be grounds for dismissing the charges at the committee's discretion but that's extremely unlikely to happen in this scenario I'd imagine.

Wizards please back me up if that understanding of parliamentary procedure is correct.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I stopped actively trying to get information the moment it became clear that athletics people (and everyone else) is being actively kept in the dark. But the most intersting nugget of scuttlebutt to pop up recently is that the committees haven't been able to meet because (some of?) the professors in question conveniently keep making themselves unavailable at the time the committee can meet. Professors have the right to ask for a delay if they can't make it... this can actually be grounds for dismissing the charges at the committee's discretion but that's extremely unlikely to happen in this scenario I'd imagine.

Wizards please back me up if that understanding of parliamentary procedure is correct.

I don't know anything, of course. But I have gotten the feeling that something is going on. Either there is no cohesive way to move this thing forward with charges sticking, in light of the future precedence this whole thing would set, and details are being worked out. Or someone is trying to gum up the process. Whether that is due to retribution, retaliation, or ideology; who knows?

 

[wizards8507]

I stopped actively trying to get information the moment it became clear that athletics people (and everyone else) is being actively kept in the dark. But the most intersting nugget of scuttlebutt to pop up recently is that the committees haven't been able to meet because (some of?) the professors in question conveniently keep making themselves unavailable at the time the committee can meet. Professors have the right to ask for a delay if they can't make it... this can actually be grounds for dismissing the charges at the committee's discretion but that's extremely unlikely to happen in this scenario I'd imagine.

Wizards please back me up if that understanding of parliamentary procedure is correct.

Fascinating. The rules for the individual committees have some discretion. First, there can either be a college-level committee (College of Arts and Letters, Mendoza College of Business, etc.) or a department-level committee (Sociology, Accounting, Physics, etc.). The rules are set either by the dean (for a college-level committee) or the department chair (for a department-level committee). The composition of the committee is generally as follows:

Faculty - Chair
Faculty
Student - Undergrad
Student - Undergrad
Student - Undergrad or graduate

There's a recusal policy for conflicts of interest (i.e. if the faculty member is the professor in whose class the alleged incident occurred), but it doesn't specify what happens if one of them just "can't make it." The only hard-and-fast rules are that the chair must be a faculty member and the majority of members must be students. They could run the hearing with one faculty member (the chair) and three students and still be in compliance with the policy.

 

[Emcee77]

I stopped actively trying to get information the moment it became clear that athletics people (and everyone else) is being actively kept in the dark. But the most intersting nugget of scuttlebutt to pop up recently is that the committees haven't been able to meet because (some of?) the professors in question conveniently keep making themselves unavailable at the time the committee can meet. Professors have the right to ask for a delay if they can't make it... this can actually be grounds for dismissing the charges at the committee's discretion but that's extremely unlikely to happen in this scenario I'd imagine.

Wizards please back me up if that understanding of parliamentary procedure is correct.

Just totally unacceptable if true. Completely unfair to the accused student-athletes. That's just the sort of thing I was afraid of.

I think I posted something earlier in the thread along the lines of: 1) this slowness can only be explained by either a) negligent slowness by ND or b) unprecedented findings of a complex nature, making ND unsure how to proceed; 2) ND is unlikely to be negligent in this matter, given the spotlight on the university; therefore 3) ND's investigation must have made unprecedented findings, making ND unsure how to proceed. Argument failed; premise 2 false.

 

[Irish2015]

Why would the professor want to delay it?

 

[ulukinatme]

I stopped actively trying to get information the moment it became clear that athletics people (and everyone else) is being actively kept in the dark. But the most intersting nugget of scuttlebutt to pop up recently is that the committees haven't been able to meet because (some of?) the professors in question conveniently keep making themselves unavailable at the time the committee can meet. Professors have the right to ask for a delay if they can't make it... this can actually be grounds for dismissing the charges at the committee's discretion but that's extremely unlikely to happen in this scenario I'd imagine.

Wizards please back me up if that understanding of parliamentary procedure is correct.

Well ain't that some BS. The professors should probably be reminded that ND may not have survived to provide them a job were it not for football. The campus and their facilities certainly wouldn't be quite as nice if football was never played there.

 

[IrishLax]

Fascinating. The rules for the individual committees have some discretion. First, there can either be a college-level committee (College of Arts and Letters, Mendoza College of Business, etc.) or a department-level committee (Sociology, Accounting, Physics, etc.). The rules are set either by the dean (for a college-level committee) or the department chair (for a department-level committee). The composition of the committee is generally as follows:

Faculty - Chair
Faculty
Student - Undergrad
Student - Undergrad
Student - Undergrad or graduate

There's a recusal policy for conflicts of interest (i.e. if the faculty member is the professor in whose class the alleged incident occurred), but it doesn't specify what happens if one of them just "can't make it." The only hard-and-fast rules are that the chair must be a faculty member and the majority of members must be students. They could run the hearing with one faculty member (the chair) and three students and still be in compliance with the policy.

Apparently, either the accused party (student) or accuser (professor) can request a delay if they cannot attend the scheduled hearing. But the hearing can in some cases proceed without either party in attendance (and that can be a factor). I dunno... in Italy and cant page back well on my device, but maybe this is in the link you provided earlier? This could all be really inaccurate, but it's the last I've heard/read.

 

[IrishDevil]

Long time stalker, first time poster. I exchanged messages with one of the players involved in this fiasco, he told me he has no more information than the general public. As much as we the fans think we should have some information, it is absolutely ridiculous that those involved are left in the dark !

 

[ND NYC]

whovever is in charge of this process should be working in national security

#noleaks

 

[Sherm Sticky]

I'm still wondering about Jimmymacs naked lap...

 

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Jimmymac must be on the committee. Stall everything

 

[ScooterIrish]

Why would the professor want to delay it?

Because the professor knows the students aren't guilty of anything major? Because the professor hates the football team?

 

[koonja]

Why would the professor want to delay it?

Could they be michigan/USC grads? Lol.

 

[IrishLion]

So if Jimmymac goes through with the naked lap, and then gets in trouble for it... at least he should have his degree by the time any disciplinary committee meets?

 

[CarrollVermin]

I am interested to see what BK says tomorrow. If it is just the standard "church and state" issue, then that will be telling that they are also in the dark. Someone on that camps has to know what is going on and why this is taking so long. And that someone should be able to keep the Athletic Department in the loop about why this is taking so long.

If this is a professor, I don't know how long they can delay it without moving forward without it. We had a policy of a one-time delay due to illness, unavailability, or otherwise. In other words, we could delay by one meeting a scheduled hearing. I don't know if that is the case at ND, but refusal to participate and purposefully delay should be grounds for some sort of action by the Faculty Senate. If this is true, the individual has taken the integrity of the process and thrown it out the window. That should not come without professional repercussions. You just can't not show up because you don't want to. Again, where is Jenkins on this, if that is the case?

 

[BobD]

I'm going to go ahead and believe that if we don't hear anything this week, the investigation turned up very bad things that will be released at a later time. If they do finish the hearings, maybe some players are released for time already served...wishful thinking I guess. Still ridiculous this process has gone on this long....so it's a bit worrying that some real bad news could be forthcoming.

I hope like heck that nobody here is expecting this to have a good outcome. As I've said quite a few times in this thread. ....nothing good takes this long.

IMHO it's all bad and they are sorting through a pile of shit.

Now that shit could and probably is something they knowingly or unknowingly did wrong.

Or ND totally f'd this up.

 

[ACamp1900]

Thing is, I thought the investigation was over and they were just waiting for the hearing... is that correct??

 

[Booslum31]

I hope like heck that nobody here is expecting this to have a good outcome. As I've said quite a few times in this thread. ....nothing good takes this long.

IMHO it's all bad and they are sorting through a pile of shit.

Now that shit could and probably is something they knowingly or unknowingly did wrong.

Or ND totally f'd this up.

Totally agree. My thought is that because the five involved aren't absolutely going ape-shit to get this resolved...they are all guilty of something and there is no positive outcome in their future.

 

[IrishLax]

Because the professor knows the students aren't guilty of anything major? Because the professor hates the football team?

Most professors have zero affinity for the school and/or strongly dislike athletes in general. Almost all of them went to schools that are not Notre Dame. Most of them will not get tenured at Notre Dame and plan to take a promotion somewhere else when it pops up. Most of them despise having to teach athletes because they are "dumb." And most of them generally dislike the "inconvenience" that is football... which is one of the main reasons that they started having "faculty day" at fall practice to humanize football players as real students and real people that have tremendous demands outside the classroom.

I'll never forget freshman year having a professor make the offhanded comment that she "hated football Saturdays" because "it made it impossible to get to the library from off campus." These are the kinds of people we're dealing with.

 

[ulukinatme]

Most professors have zero affinity for the school and/or strongly dislike athletes in general. Almost all of them went to schools that are not Notre Dame. Most of them will not get tenured at Notre Dame and plan to take a promotion somewhere else when it pops up. Most of them despise having to teach athletes because they are "dumb." And most of them generally dislike the "inconvenience" that is football... which is one of the main reasons that they started having "faculty day" at fall practice to humanize football players as real students and real people that have tremendous demands outside the classroom.

I'll never forget freshman year having a professor make the offhanded comment that she "hated football Saturdays" because "it made it impossible to get to the library from off campus." These are the kinds of people we're dealing with.

Methinks these professors should find a different school to teach at.

 

[koonja]

Methinks these professors should find a different school to teach at.

Right. ND stands for a lot of things, some bigger than football. But football is a special thing at ND too. Appreciate it for everything it is. There's a lot of history with the football team.

 

[wizards8507]

Most professors have zero affinity for the school and/or strongly dislike athletes in general. Almost all of them went to schools that are not Notre Dame. Most of them will not get tenured at Notre Dame and plan to take a promotion somewhere else when it pops up.

I can't imagine that those are the professors who would be on the honesty committees. They might not be huge football fans, but they're almost certainly "full" (tenured) professors in departmental leadership positions.

 

[wizards8507]

Methinks these professors should find a different school to teach at.

Notre Dame would have the shittiest philosophy, theology, engineering, and every other type of department in the country if they only recruited and retained faculty members who were hardcore ND football fans.

 

[Rack Em]

Most professors have zero affinity for the school and/or strongly dislike athletes in general. Almost all of them went to schools that are not Notre Dame. Most of them will not get tenured at Notre Dame and plan to take a promotion somewhere else when it pops up. Most of them despise having to teach athletes because they are "dumb." And most of them generally dislike the "inconvenience" that is football... which is one of the main reasons that they started having "faculty day" at fall practice to humanize football players as real students and real people that have tremendous demands outside the classroom.

I'll never forget freshman year having a professor make the offhanded comment that she "hated football Saturdays" because "it made it impossible to get to the library from off campus." These are the kinds of people we're dealing with.

This is why ND fans should support the Economics department. They hold weekly tailgates in the same spot. The professors they bring in are expected to be Catholic, personable, and actually like ND. Unfortunately, those types are few and far between on campus. One of the many reasons why I'm proud I was an Econ major.

/Shameless plug

 

[Rack Em]

Notre Dame would have the shittiest philosophy, theology, engineering, and every other type of department in the country if they only recruited and retained faculty members who were hardcore ND football fans.

But they can still recruit hardcore fans of the school and what it stands for. The College of (F)Arts and Letters does that to an extent. I've had conversations with a member of the hiring committee about it.

 

[kmoose]

This is why ND fans should support the Economics department. They hold weekly tailgates in the same spot. The professors they bring in are expected to be Catholic, personable, and actually like ND. Unfortunately, those types are few and far between on campus. One of the many reasons why I'm proud I was an Econ major.

/Shameless plug

Are you part of the Econ Department, Rack Em? If so, you may know my brother. He is an Asst. Director in the MBA program.

 

[IrishLax]

I can't imagine that those are the professors who would be on the honesty committees. They might not be huge football fans, but they're almost certainly "full" (tenured) professors in departmental leadership positions.

They're not on the honesty committee. They're the "accusing" party in the hearings, as it's their class where the potential violation occurred.

EDIT: googled it up... It's in VII.C ... basically, they have to find a time that works for everyone, and point 6 in that section says the accuser can request rescheduling. The Honor Code // Undergraduate Academic Code of Honor // University of Notre Dame committees

 

[T Town Tommy]

This is why ND fans should support the Economics department. They hold weekly tailgates in the same spot. The professors they bring in are expected to be Catholic, personable, and actually like ND. Unfortunately, those types are few and far between on campus. One of the many reasons why I'm proud I was an Econ major.

/Shameless plug

So you're saying they understand the relationship between a successful football program and the success of the school is mutually beneficial? And to think I hated Econ in college.