Rumored Violations

[palinurus]

That's a core tenet of pretty much every honor code out there, academic or otherwise.

"I will not lie, steal, cheat, or tolerate anyone that does."

Boilerplate stuff.

I was watching one of the UND.com shows (from this preseason) last night and it showed a locker room sign -- gold with big blue lettering:

"ND Football Team Commandments

1) Treat women with respect
2) Do not steal
3) Do not lie
4) Do not cheat"

I understand the point on not wanting to encourage "squealing" (which, to me, is giving up your buddy to save yourself, as opposed to taking action to uphold a principle that you follow or have said you would follow), or what I'd rather call "non-toleration," and that's why I think you adjust the penalty for violation based on the circumstances. But a society sends a message by both its laws and what it tolerates.

 

[BigIrish]

Depends on what you think 'ratting' is.

If you know three or four of your teammates is cheating, are asked about it, and deny knowing... you didn't rat, but you also lied and covered it up.

Not ratting is murky.

I for one wouldn't tell anybody a thing about my friends, but I don't go to Notre Dame. Things are different there. It's why we love it.

Sure. And assuming that you lied about your knowledge of the cheating, the next question is what the penalty should be. If true that some are being punished for their knowledge of the situation and not their own academic dishonesty, how severe should that punishment be? They've already sat out of the season opener. Do they deserve to sit out of game two (never mind the opponent)? Seems awfully draconian to me. This is an academic issue. There are other ways to discipline a kid than suspending him from extracurricular activities. What would the punishment be if he were being accused of the same thing but WASN'T a football player? Perspective...context...common sense.

 

[Wingman Ray]

That's a core tenet of pretty much every honor code out there, academic or otherwise.

"I will not lie, steal, cheat, or tolerate anyone that does."

Boilerplate stuff.

Yet the very people who swear to follow this code are the same lying, backstabbing, walk over anyone in my way scum that run 95% of the businesses in America of which ND is the #1 ranked business school in America.

Kind if ironic dont you think?

Hard to be holier than thou when three of the fingers are pointing right back at you.

 

[JughedJones]

Sure. And assuming that you lied about your knowledge of the cheating, the next question is what the penalty should be. If true that some are being punished for their knowledge of the situation and not their own academic dishonesty, how severe should that punishment be? They've already sat out of the season opener. Do they deserve to sit out of game two (never mind the opponent)? Seems awfully draconian to me. This is an academic issue. There are other ways to discipline a kid than suspending him from extracurricular activities. What would the punishment be if he were being accused of the same thing but WASN'T a football player? Perspective...context...common sense.

Totally.

I remember reading someone on here who has a hell of a lot more knowledge than I do about this, (Wizard?) say that the knowledge of impropriety does in fact carry a far less harsh penalty, like time served basically.

 

[JughedJones]

Yet the very people who swear to follow this code are the same lying, backstabbing, walk over anyone in my way scum that run 95% of the businesses in America of which ND is the #1 ranked business school in America.

Kind if ironic dont you think?

Hard to be holier than thou when three of the fingers are pointing right back at you.

I can't tell if this is...

Yeah, it is. Shove it.

 

[ResLife Hero]

I've read some reference to the idea of "time served" being sufficient for those who didn't directly cheat. If that's really an option, then holding the players out the last few weeks makes a lot of sense and gives us the best chance at having any players left standing back by FSU, UNC, Stanford, etc.

 

[tussin]

"ND Football Team Commandments

1) Treat women with respect
2) Do not steal
3) Do not lie
4) Do not cheat"

ND football team needs to expand their Commandments to be more in-line with the seminal Rom-Com classic, Hitch:

"Never lie, steal, cheat, or drink. But if you must lie, lie in the arms of the one you love. If you must steal, steal away from bad company. If you must cheat, cheat death. And if you must drink, drink in the moments that take your breath away."

 

[wizards8507]

ND football team needs to expand their Commandments to be more in-line with the seminal Rom-Com classic, Hitch:

"Never lie, steal, cheat, or drink. But if you must lie, lie in the arms of the one you love. If you must steal, steal away from bad company. If you must cheat, cheat death. And if you must drink, drink in the moments that take your breath away."

I really hope you had to Google that to get it right.

 

[Ndaccountant]

ND football team needs to expand their Commandments to be more in-line with the seminal Rom-Com classic, Hitch:

"Never lie, steal, cheat, or drink. But if you must lie, lie in the arms of the one you love. If you must steal, steal away from bad company. If you must cheat, cheat death. And if you must drink, drink in the moments that take your breath away."

 

[luckathe1]

Sorry could not find introduction thread.
But this comes to mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuYhfCkRxyE

 

[wizards8507]

Sure. And assuming that you lied about your knowledge of the cheating, the next question is what the penalty should be. If true that some are being punished for their knowledge of the situation and not their own academic dishonesty, how severe should that punishment be? They've already sat out of the season opener. Do they deserve to sit out of game two (never mind the opponent)? Seems awfully draconian to me. This is an academic issue. There are other ways to discipline a kid than suspending him from extracurricular activities. What would the punishment be if he were being accused of the same thing but WASN'T a football player? Perspective...context...common sense.

Honor code "sentencing" guidelines:

1. In the case of two students in the same course, one of whom assisted the other in an Honor Code infraction, equitable sanctions should be applied to the two students. If the collaborator who supplied the “infraction assistance” is not enrolled in the same course as the person who committed the infraction, it is recommended that you seek out the advice of your Departmental Honesty Committee Chair and/or a University Code of Honor committee member before proceeding.

2. Sanctions should have the effect of genuinely penalizing the student for choosing dishonesty over honesty. Penalties that leave students in the same position they
would have been in had they not cheated are punishments only in name, and offer scant disincentive to a student tempted to cheat

3. Honesty and contrition on the part of a student who confesses to having violated the Honor Code can justify reducing a student’s punishment, provided that the reduction does not violate Guideline 2.

Totally.

I remember reading someone on here who has a hell of a lot more knowledge than I do about this, (Wizard?) say that the knowledge of impropriety does in fact carry a far less harsh penalty, like time served basically.

The "knowledge of impropriety" comments I made were more on an institutional level than an individual one. My point was that INSTITUTIONAL knowledge of impropriety would be part of the consideration if we were to vacate wins.

 

[ndftbl]

I've read some reference to the idea of "time served" being sufficient for those who didn't directly cheat. If that's really an option, then holding the players out the last few weeks makes a lot of sense and gives us the best chance at having any players left standing back by FSU, UNC, Stanford, etc.

My only concern - which I think was shared by many - is that the "time served" was intentionally worked out to include the Michigan game.

Other schools consistently only suspend their players for the largely meaningless first game, and then the players are reinstated when it starts to count.

Hope I am wrong, but that was my feeling from the very beginning.

 

[wizards8507]

There's no notion of "time served" that comes into play here. BK has stated numerous times that this is an ACADEMIC issue, not an ATHLETIC issue. From an ACADEMIC perspective, they haven't served any time because their only punishments to-date have been ATHLETIC (i.e. they can't play or practice). Punishments would need to be ACADEMIC in nature, likely an F for the applicable assignments or courses. Then, if those Fs take the students out of good standing, the athletic ramifications will be addressed.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Yet the very people who swear to follow this code are the same lying, backstabbing, walk over anyone in my way scum that run 95% of the businesses in America of which ND is the #1 ranked business school in America.

Help me understand this argument:

1. Notre Dame's business school is highly regarded.
2. Business is an inherently unethical profession.
3. Therefore, Notre Dame is hypocritical for punishing students who demonstrate a lack of integrity.

Impeccable logic, professor. Needless to say, #2 is hardly self-evident.

Your posts in this thread recently have been embarrassing. We get it-- you don't understand why this process is taking so long, the delay seems to be harming a sports team in which you've made an emotional investment, and you're looking for someone to blame. That's all well and good; plenty of people here feel similarly.

But you're not stopping there. You're suggesting that the University itself lacks integrity, that the players affected should sue ND for damage done to their reputations, draft stock, etc. If that's truly the way you feel, you need to find another program to support.

 

[ResLife Hero]

There's no notion of "time served" that comes into play here. BK has stated numerous times that this is an ACADEMIC issue, not an ATHLETIC issue. From an ACADEMIC perspective, they haven't served any time because their only punishments to-date have been ATHLETIC (i.e. they can't play or practice). Punishments would need to be ACADEMIC in nature, likely an F for the applicable assignments or courses. Then, if those Fs take the students out of good standing, the athletic ramifications will be addressed.

A consequence of academic misconduct could be prohibition from extracurriculars for a designated period of time (at least that was the case when I was a student) which was the only reason time served made any sense. Also if any of the players fell into the gray area between not cheating but not being totally honest, the coaches could do whatever they wanted in terms of punishment,

In terms of impact to transcripts, I agree that there is nothing where time served could come into play.

 

[BGIF]

A consequence of academic misconduct could be prohibition from extracurriculars for a designated period of time (at least that was the case when I was a student) which was the only reason time served made any sense. Also if any of the players fell into the gray area between not cheating but not being totally honest, the coaches could do whatever they wanted in terms of punishment,

In terms of impact to transcripts, I agree that there is nothing where time served could come into play.

This isn't is the SEC, nor is this an athletic or team issue. It's clearly an academic issue and is being handled administratively as it should.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

So is there any actual news today?

 

[wizards8507]

So is there any actual news today?

 

[ND NYC]

Sure. And assuming that you lied about your knowledge of the cheating, the next question is what the penalty should be. If true that some are being punished for their knowledge of the situation and not their own academic dishonesty, how severe should that punishment be? They've already sat out of the season opener. Do they deserve to sit out of game two (never mind the opponent)? Seems awfully draconian to me. This is an academic issue. There are other ways to discipline a kid than suspending him from extracurricular activities. What would the punishment be if he were being accused of the same thing but WASN'T a football player? Perspective...context...common sense.

good point

 

[ND NYC]

whose to say kelly doesnt sit whoever may end up getting "cleared" in all this anyway?

 

[gkIrish]

good point

They are being held out of football to avoid vacating wins from playing ineligible players. It's not a "sanction" proscribed by the University.

 

[MPClinton22]

Would they have to vacate wins for letting ineligible players practice? I get that you wouldn't want to take reps away from other players in the event they can't play, but even to have them around to maintain some continuity and allow them to get some practice in? Just curious

 

[goldandblue]

I'm sorry guys but the time delay on this is....

 

[woolybug25]

I've always seen the snitching aspect of honor codes to be self serving and in itself, dishonorable of the school for inserting it into the doctrine. The University essentially puts the onus of policing on its student body. Why is it dishonorable for someone to mind his own business? If they are doing everything the right way, why is it their responsibility to narc when that action itself puts them, an others, in harms way? There is both social and ethical concequences to turning in potential cheaters. Hell.. What if you are wrong? What if you thought they were cheating, turned them in, then have the committee find them innocent? Where is the honor in that?

The "Protecting the value of education" argument is BS, in my opinion. I don't see how it benefits anyone but the university. Turning in any potential improprieties later in life won't do these kids any favors.

 

[wizards8507]

FWIW

If a student witnesses a violation of the honor code or otherwise has reason to believe that a violation has occurred, the student may use discretion to choose among several possible courses of action. These possible actions include:

1. Talking with anyone suspected of violating the Academic Code of Honor and urging the person to report himself or herself to the instructor of the course or to submit a written report to a member of the Honesty Committee of the department or college in which the course is taught. If an observed act merits action under the Academic Code of Honor and the suspected student does not take what is believed to be the appropriate steps, then, as a further obliga­tion, the student suspecting a violation must initiate formal procedures by speaking to the instructor of the course or by submitting a written report of the allegation to a member of the appropriate Honesty Committee. Without a specific and credible allegation, the Honesty Committee cannot move forward with a case.

2. Discussing the observed action(s) with the instructor of the course, not naming those involved, to obtain guidance and determine if, in fact, an observed act merits action under the Academic Code of Honor.

3. Reporting detection of possible dishonesty directly to the instructor of the course.

4. Submitting a written report regarding possible dishonesty to a member of the appropri­ate Honesty Committee of the department or college which offers the course. If the student reporting a suspected violation of another wishes to remain anonymous to the student under suspicion, the Honesty Committee will honor that request, if at all feasible, during the initial inquiry prior to a hearing. If these procedures result in a hearing, the student reporting the suspected violation necessarily becomes known to the student under suspicion.

 

[woolybug25]

^^^ cliff notes: there are four ways you can narc.

 

[wizards8507]

^^^ cliff notes: there are four ways you can narc.

So cheating is only wrong if you're bad enough at it that you get busted on your own?

 

[Wild Bill]

They are being held out of football to avoid vacating wins from playing ineligible players. It's not a "sanction" proscribed by the University.

Sorry if this was asked before - Would we have to vacate wins if the suspended players practiced and attended team meetings but didn't participate in the game?

 

[woolybug25]

So cheating is only wrong if you're bad enough at it that you get busted on your own?

Where did I condone cheating in any of my posts? It's bad either way, of course. I just fail to see why students should have an ethical responsibility to turn in anyone they suspect of cheating.

 

[JughedJones]

So cheating is only wrong if you're bad enough at it that you get busted on your own?

There's a kernel of truth to that.

Cheating, if done properly, is good experience for the way the world works.

If done improperly, you should get what's coming to you.