Rumored Violations

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wizards8507

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Once the investigation is DONE, for any student in any activity adversely affected - including but not limited to football players - make the decision one way or the other. Delay equals more punishment. Basic fairness. Change the process for the future.
You make it sound like the honesty committee is made up of full time administrators who do nothing but issue punishments all day long. These committees are completely ad hoc and composed of students and faculty with classes, work, and other obligations.
 
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koonja

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I'm going to pistol whip the next person that says they're proud of how slow this process is.

Starting to think Longo is part of the Councel.
 

NDdomer2

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vmgsf

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You make it sound like the honesty committee is made up of full time administrators who do nothing but issue punishments all day long. These committees are completely ad hoc and composed of students and faculty with classes, work, and other obligations.

Response: CHANGE the process. Do not punish people with delay. ADVERSELY affected - they are being damaged. Would you like to be damaged because someone was too busy because the process was fatally flawed?
 

woolybug25

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If this has any effect on a recruit then they weren't interested in ND and needed an excuse to eliminate them. Bottom line, don't cheat or lie. (Also, don't snitch.)

If I'm a parent of a recruit, this is a positive for me because education should be first. I won't tolerate shortcuts and I'd know ND is serious about holding my kid accountable. Everyone is different but that's me.

Grahambo's Top ND (Since 2000) WR:

I've gone the other direction as of late. I know this might sound like I am looking at the worst, but I don't think parents of today's recruits really think this way. I mean, there are some diamond in the rough folks that put a premium on it, but generally speaking, most of them don't care. They'll let snake oil salesman sell them on "how they take care of players both while they are at [/insert school] and after". That is enough to get these parents to be okay with going to a lesser academic university for the sake of their real priority of getting their kid into the NFL, having them stay close to home, etc.

I think we give way too much credit to both the kids and their parents, assuming that they think like us. Most American (especially inner city) parents don't understand or deeply care about the difference in education between FSU and Notre Dame. Nor do 17 year old kids, whom have everyone giving them whatever they want, think the gravy train will ever stop. They are about immediate gratification, getting to the NFL and winning. Education has clearly taken a back seat. If it hasn't, then someone explain to me how the majority of the top ten recruiting classes are in the SEC over the last decade? Or how Alabama has had 5 straight #1 classes?

I'm not saying we can't compete with the negative recruiting, we have done a great job of doing just that over the last decade. But to say that this type of situation helps us is patently false. Parents today want their kids coddled, just like they do themselves. That is the profile of today's 5 star recruit family. That is far more common than the parent that would look at a situation where their kid got suspended for not snitching on a teammate, as positive reason to attend the school.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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I'm going to pistol whip the next person that says they're proud of how slow this process is.

Starting to think Longo is part of the Councel.

I just want to make one thing clear: ND is doing the right thing and taking this through the process as slowly as they can.

















And I'm proud of them for it.
 

Hammer Of The Gods

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I've gone the other direction as of late. I know this might sound like I am looking at the worst, but I don't think parents of today's recruits really think this way. I mean, there are some diamond in the rough folks that put a premium on it, but generally speaking, most of them don't care. They'll let snake oil salesman sell them on "how they take care of players both while they are at [/insert school] and after". That is enough to get these parents to be okay with going to a lesser academic university for the sake of their real priority of getting their kid into the NFL, having them stay close to home, etc.

I think we give way too much credit to both the kids and their parents, assuming that they think like us. Most American (especially inner city) parents don't understand or deeply care about the difference in education between FSU and Notre Dame. Nor do 17 year old kids, whom have everyone giving them whatever they want, think the gravy train will ever stop. They are about immediate gratification, getting to the NFL and winning. Education has clearly taken a back seat. If it hasn't, then someone explain to me how the majority of the top ten recruiting classes are in the SEC over the last decade? Or how Alabama has had 5 straight #1 classes?

I'm not saying we can't compete with the negative recruiting, we have done a great job of doing just that over the last decade. But to say that this type of situation helps us is patently false. Parents today want their kids coddled, just like they do themselves. That is the profile of today's 5 star recruit family. That is far more common than the parent that would look at a situation where their kid got suspended for not snitching on a teammate, as positive reason to attend the school.

Could not agree more. Lets assume the rumors are true when it comes to KVR. I'm sure his parents are just so proud of the university. So happy he chose Notre Dame, they are holding back potentially a top 15 pick in the NFL draft next year. Why? he didn't snitch on his girlfriend and good buddies/team mates? If you guys think that the vast majority of the players on our team want to be accountants before playing in the NFL, you never played ball and a high level or are very naive about the world today.
 

TheChosen1

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I also what to make one thing clear. ND does not care what people outside ND think including Phillip Daniels.
 

woolybug25

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Originally Posted by koonja View Post
I'm going to pistol whip the next person that says they're proud of how slow this process is.

Starting to think Longo is part of the Councel.

I just want to make one thing clear: ND is doing the right thing and taking this through the process as slowly as they can.



And I'm proud of them for it.

you-mean-shenanigans-o.gif
 

IrishLion

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I might suggest "My GF is a Michigan fan, as is my daughter". The way you worded it sounds Kentuckyish.

I won't stand for this blatant disrespect towards the greatest commonwealth in all the land.*


*Disclaimer: Anything southwest of Louisville and south or southeast of Lexington doesn't count as part of the commonwealth. As far as I'm concerned, it's an uninhabited land of wild animals, sprinkled here and there with various communities of high school football.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Threads like this remind me of how few a people are aware that this country has afforded us the luxury to live in a world of fantasy.
 

Grahambo

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I've gone the other direction as of late. I know this might sound like I am looking at the worst, but I don't think parents of today's recruits really think this way. I mean, there are some diamond in the rough folks that put a premium on it, but generally speaking, most of them don't care. They'll let snake oil salesman sell them on "how they take care of players both while they are at [/insert school] and after". That is enough to get these parents to be okay with going to a lesser academic university for the sake of their real priority of getting their kid into the NFL, having them stay close to home, etc.

I think we give way too much credit to both the kids and their parents, assuming that they think like us. Most American (especially inner city) parents don't understand or deeply care about the difference in education between FSU and Notre Dame. Nor do 17 year old kids, whom have everyone giving them whatever they want, think the gravy train will ever stop. They are about immediate gratification, getting to the NFL and winning. Education has clearly taken a back seat. If it hasn't, then someone explain to me how the majority of the top ten recruiting classes are in the SEC over the last decade? Or how Alabama has had 5 straight #1 classes?

I'm not saying we can't compete with the negative recruiting, we have done a great job of doing just that over the last decade. But to say that this type of situation helps us is patently false. Parents today want their kids coddled, just like they do themselves. That is the profile of today's 5 star recruit family. That is far more common than the parent that would look at a situation where their kid got suspended for not snitching on a teammate, as positive reason to attend the school.


A well thought out counter argument. Reps good buddy.

Just know in 12 years my son will be focused on education first. All sporting activities come to an end, education never dies.


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palinurus

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I've gone the other direction as of late. I know this might sound like I am looking at the worst, but I don't think parents of today's recruits really think this way. I mean, there are some diamond in the rough folks that put a premium on it, but generally speaking, most of them don't care. They'll let snake oil salesman sell them on "how they take care of players both while they are at [/insert school] and after". That is enough to get these parents to be okay with going to a lesser academic university for the sake of their real priority of getting their kid into the NFL, having them stay close to home, etc.

I think we give way too much credit to both the kids and their parents, assuming that they think like us. Most American (especially inner city) parents don't understand or deeply care about the difference in education between FSU and Notre Dame. Nor do 17 year old kids, whom have everyone giving them whatever they want, think the gravy train will ever stop. They are about immediate gratification, getting to the NFL and winning. Education has clearly taken a back seat. If it hasn't, then someone explain to me how the majority of the top ten recruiting classes are in the SEC over the last decade? Or how Alabama has had 5 straight #1 classes?

I'm not saying we can't compete with the negative recruiting, we have done a great job of doing just that over the last decade. But to say that this type of situation helps us is patently false. Parents today want their kids coddled, just like they do themselves. That is the profile of today's 5 star recruit family. That is far more common than the parent that would look at a situation where their kid got suspended for not snitching on a teammate, as positive reason to attend the school.


This is a very good post, and I agree with almost all of it, except the punchline.

I don't want to sound holier than anyone. I'm not. But we're talking an ideal here.

A society (or a university, in this case) should have certain standards that it believes are right. And even if enforcement of those standards is difficult, or has side effects that make it harder "to compete," it should stick with them because the society believes them right, right in principle.

Because of the practical difficulty of applying the principle (e.g., imperfect evidence and the nature of the offenses), or the understandable difficulty of living up to the principle (on the part of the "governed") (these are kids raised in a modern world that doesn't much honor commitment to anything), justice can be tempered on the penalty end (e.g., with penalties more lenient than expulsion). But you keep the standard because abiding the wrong behavior undermines an important, even critical, goal, here, the honesty and integrity of young people and the university. That is, you keep a rule you know may be hard to enforce and will be imperfectly enforced, because it protects an important virtue and not having the rule is terminal to your mission.

I don't know what to say about parents and kids who don't care about such rules. We can either explain why the rule matters, or we can go along with a society that, increasingly, pays only lip service to keeping your word and being honest. Or worse, we can keep the rule and not enforce it, compounding our timidity to face a messed up world, with hypocrisy.
 

woolybug25

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A well thought out counter argument. Reps good buddy.

Just know in 12 years my son will be focused on education first. All sporting activities come to an end, education never dies.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Grahambo Jr for '28 Heisman!!!

:cheers:
 

BigIrish

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Rumors coming from a member of the the student council wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. We see leaks coming from the highest levels of government on a daily basis, regarding issues that are far more serious than whether or not a football player cheated in class. ND does a pretty good job staying tight-lipped when it wants to, but these are still 18-22 year-old students who are involved in this process in front of a national audience. I'm sure they're being bombarded with questions and I'm sure that at least some of them are enjoying the attention.

The issue I find most frustrating is the suggestion that at least one or two of the suspended players are being held out not because of cheating, but because they knew others were doing so. Is that how the honor code really works? A student is required to rat on his fellow student? How do we know that they weren't trying to mentor the other players and encourage positive behavior without actually betraying the trust of their fellow student? Is there no honor in that?
 

Grahambo

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Grahambo Jr for '28 Heisman!!!



:cheers:


Better believe where Grahambo Sr. will be pushing Jr! Lol

Hopefully he does have his mother's height gene as her side has all the male's 6'3'' or higher. She's 5'9". My side has the tallest at 6'0". I'm 5'9". I do have the athleticism though. So, come on!


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JughedJones

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Rumors coming from a member of the the student council wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. We see leaks coming from the highest levels of government on a daily basis, regarding issues that are far more serious than whether or not a football player cheated in class. ND does a pretty good job staying tight-lipped when it wants to, but these are still 18-22 year-old students who are involved in this process in front of a national audience. I'm sure they're being bombarded with questions and I'm sure that at least some of them are enjoying the attention.

The issue I find most frustrating is the suggestion that at least one or two of the suspended players are being held out not because of cheating, but because they knew others were doing so. Is that how the honor code really works? A student is required to rat on his fellow student? How do we know that they weren't trying to mentor the other players and encourage positive behavior without actually betraying the trust of their fellow student? Is there no honor in that?


That's a core tenet of pretty much every honor code out there, academic or otherwise.

"I will not lie, steal, cheat, or tolerate anyone that does."

Boilerplate stuff.
 
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palinurus

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If you look at the principle of non-toleration as "forcing teammates to rat on each other," it's kind of missing the point. The point is that by having the rule, you re-enforce how important the dishonesty is, and therefore (a) attract kids who believe in and support the principle, and (b) make such behavior less likely, not because the kids fear "spies" but because not cheating is part of the culture. It's not a rule to foster suspicion and mistrust; it's a rule to express the obligation of all students to create an atmosphere of integrity and honesty.
 

BigIrish

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That's a core tenet of pretty much every honor code out there, academic or otherwise.

"I will not lie, steal, cheat, or tolerate anyone that does."

Boilerplate stuff.

Sure, I get that. And I don't disagree with that. But as with most things in life, context is key. I don't have a clue as to what the evidence may be, but knowledge of wrongdoing (in the absence of reporting it) does not necessarily equate to tolerance of the crime. Its possible to not be tolerant of the crime but still not rat out your peer. On the other hand, if there was evidence of collusion (ie, helping to cover up the issue), then that is a entirely different issue.
 

JughedJones

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Sure, I get that. And I don't disagree with that. But as with most things in life, context is key. I don't have a clue as to what the evidence may be, but knowledge of wrongdoing (in the absence of reporting it) does not necessarily equate to tolerance of the crime. Its possible to not be tolerant of the crime but still not rat out your peer. On the other hand, if there was evidence of collusion (ie, helping to cover up the issue), then that is a entirely different issue.

Depends on what you think 'ratting' is.

If you know three or four of your teammates is cheating, are asked about it, and deny knowing... you didn't rat, but you also lied and covered it up.

Not ratting is murky.

I for one wouldn't tell anybody a thing about my friends, but I don't go to Notre Dame. Things are different there. It's why we love it.
 

gkIrish

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There are schools out there (I know Davidson College is one) where the Honor Code is EXTREMELY important. Students are almost always allowed to take their examinations at home and "ratting" is the absolute expectation. My friend (who interestingly became friends with Steph Curry) who went there told me that was one of the biggest reasons he chose the school.
 

returnofthemack

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There are schools out there (I know Davidson College is one) where the Honor Code is EXTREMELY important. Students are almost always allowed to take their examinations at home and "ratting" is the absolute expectation. My friend (who interestingly became friends with Steph Curry) who went there told me that was one of the biggest reasons he chose the school.

Why the hell would you need to cheat if your exams are take-home?
 

gkIrish

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Why the hell would you need to cheat if your exams are take-home?

Well they are take-home in the sense that you are allowed to actually take the exam wherever you want but not in the sense that you are allowed to use textbooks or the Internet or receive any help.

Sorry I should have been more clear.
 
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