Rumored Violations

[IrishLax]

So you think all of the facts were out as of August 15th, or they just found enough to say its time to suspend them for the rest of the investigation?

Now you're asking the right question, and I don't have the answer. I think at that point they had concluded enough about the players to know that there was a serious eligibility concern and did not want them participating from that point forward until it was cleared up.

This would be similar to when Auburn declared Cam Newton to be ineligible per concerns, presented the findings to the NCAA, and then had him reinstated. Your standard operating procedure in compliance is that as soon as you become aware of an eligibility concern you are to IMMEDIATELY report it and declare the player ineligible until the status is cleared up one way or another.

Towards specifics... the competing theories are:
1. The players got held out on the 15th per SOP outlined above, they know or believe they will be reinstated, and it is just a matter of time. This could apply to any or all of them. The logical flaws to this theory mostly have to do with timing, but the supporting logic is if they knew they were toast they already would've transferred or started the transfer process. So somehow, somewhere there is something holding them put.
2. The players got held out on the 15th because that's when their cases were closed, and their fate is still yet to be determined by the honor code committee, etc. There are no logical flaws in this theory, but that doesn't mean it's correct.
3. They're all already toast and Notre Dame is simply slow playing the news because there are other parts of the investigation still ongoing and they want to release all of the final findings at once instead of piecemeal. They know that they're gone so they are obligated to hold them out at this point. The logical flaw with this theory has to do with allowing them to stay in school if they're already 100% toast... classes start soon and someone should be able to know really quick whether or not they're ACTIVELY enrolled. However, the Sykes debacle shows us ND doesn't give a shit about being retroactive.

 

[Rudy89]

A little extreme and I don't think exactly this way but here are my feelings going into this season after realizing we may not have the talent on D to bail us out. Experts have us going .500 and I mean are we really gonna fall that far. Someone with a level head give me your prediction for what you think we can do without those 4. I'll take .500 as long as UM, USC, and the bowl are part of it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vmXWZFPvCAU

 

[NDhoosier]

Again, people keep saying "if we only win 6 games but beat Michigan and U$C, Ill be happy."

No, no you wouldnt, because if we beat those two and still lose 5-6 games, then that means we shit the bed multiple times against inferior opponents. If we are good enough to beat Michigan and U$C, then we should have at least 9 wins, easy.

 

[Grahambo]

Again, people keep saying "if we only win 6 games but beat Michigan and U$C, Ill be happy."

No, no you wouldnt, because if we beat those two and still lose 5-6 games, then that means we shit the bed multiple times against inferior opponents. If we are good enough to beat Michigan and U$C, then we should have at least 9 wins, easy.

Mark me down for 10 wins.

No bullshit.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Now you're asking the right question, and I don't have the answer. I think at that point they had concluded enough about the players to know that there was a serious eligibility concern and did not want them participating from that point forward until it was cleared up.

This would be similar to when Auburn declared Cam Newton to be ineligible per concerns, presented the findings to the NCAA, and then had him reinstated. Your standard operating procedure in compliance is that as soon as you become aware of an eligibility concern you are to IMMEDIATELY report it and declare the player ineligible until the status is cleared up one way or another.

Towards specifics... the competing theories are:
1. The players got held out on the 15th per SOP outlined above, they know or believe they will be reinstated, and it is just a matter of time. This could apply to any or all of them. The logical flaws to this theory mostly have to do with timing, but the supporting logic is if they knew they were toast they already would've transferred or started the transfer process. So somehow, somewhere there is something holding them put.
2. The players got held out on the 15th because that's when their cases were closed, and their fate is still yet to be determined by the honor code committee, etc. There are no logical flaws in this theory, but that doesn't mean it's correct.
3. They're all already toast and Notre Dame is simply slow playing the news because there are other parts of the investigation still ongoing and they want to release all of the final findings at once instead of piecemeal. They know that they're gone so they are obligated to hold them out at this point. The logical flaw with this theory has to do with allowing them to stay in school if they're already 100% toast... classes start soon and someone should be able to know really quick whether or not they're ACTIVELY enrolled. However, the Sykes debacle shows us ND doesn't give a shit about being retroactive.

I believe players need to be in academic good standing to transfer to another FBS school on scholarship so the players are probably stuck at ND until findings are handed down regardless of their likely guilt or innocence.

 

[wizards8507]

I believe players need to be in academic good standing to transfer to another FBS school on scholarship so the players are probably stuck at ND until findings are handed down regardless of their likely guilt or innocence.

Academic dishonesty doesn't necessarily take you out of good standing. I had had to stay in good standing to keep my scholarship and I didn't lose it when I got in trouble. It doesn't look any different than a normal F for transcript purposes.

 

[koonja]

If nothing else, we'll know for certain if they're in class or not tomorrow.

If they are, that's obviously a great sign. The questions and rumors are going to start hard core tomorrow. Every time these 4 kids are talked to by fellow students, you know what they're going to be asked. That's why I think we'll hear a decision this week, if nothing else to protect them from constant questioning and let them focus on being students rather than class to class interviews.

If KVR won't be able to play for ND this year, other coaches are going to be looking for him, DD, and even Shaq. Things will move quickly starting tomorrow, JMO.

 

[Fbolt]

speculation runs rampant

 

[mkg77]

If nothing else, we'll know for certain if they're in class or not tomorrow.

If they are, that's obviously a great sign. The questions and rumors are going to start hard core tomorrow. Every time these 4 kids are talked to by fellow students, you know what they're going to be asked. That's why I think we'll hear a decision this week, if nothing else to protect them from constant questioning and let them focus on being students rather than class to class interviews.

If KVR won't be able to play for ND this year, other coaches are going to be looking for him, DD, and even Shaq. Things will move quickly starting tomorrow, JMO.

This seems like a good point to me. As I understand it, at this point they are not suspended from attending classes. Although I'm guessing there is nothing preventing the administration from allowing them to attend classes for a few days/weeks and then suspending them later if the investigation determines a suspension is warranted, I would think the school would want to make the academic decision, if possible, before these kids start attending classes.

 

[greyhammer90]

If we're seriously thinking about voluntarily vacating wins for this... Put me in the "these people have no clue what they're doing" camp.

It would put a black mark on Notre Dame for the entire Kelly era. It would be brought up forever, and ND would look far far worse than anything the NCAA would do.

 

[Huntr]

 

[BobD]

What are the chances of four student/athletes being accused of something like this and being quiet about it for this long if they're innocent?

 

[IrishLax]

If we're seriously thinking about voluntarily vacating wins for this... Put me in the "these people have no clue what they're doing" camp.

It would put a black mark on Notre Dame for the entire Kelly era. It would be brought up forever, and ND would look far far worse than anything the NCAA would do.

Yup. Every other school would fight tooth and nail to show they did nothing wrong/everything in their power to handle the situation correctly, and would ultimately be 100% in the clear.

Notre Dame is the only school too stupid to operate this way.

And watching Strong and True + them (allegedly? confirmed?) not being in team photo I think says all you need to know about what direction this is trending. There was an obvious head nod towards them not being a part of this program.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

If we lose KVR, we will be down to 12 players from the 2012 class!

That's a wild amount of defections from a class:

Neal, Kiel, Ferguson, Shepard, Mahone, (possibly Russell) from an 18 man class.

~33% loss rate

 

[IrishLax]

What are the chances of four student/athletes being accused of something like this and being quiet about it for this long if they're innocent?

Exactly. Some connected source would know by now. The options are that their fates aren't decided yet or they're done. There is almost no conceivable way that they're "clear."

 

[Rhode Irish]

What are the chances of four student/athletes being accused of something like this and being quiet about it for this long if they're innocent?

Innocent and not guilty aren't the same thing. They probably aren't completely innocent, but they could still escape severe punishment. They are also probably under strict directive to lay low right now.

 

[PerthDomer]

Davaris wasn't quiet about it for a while, but I think got directive to shut up. If they just fail the assignment some could be eligible depending on grade in class so even being guilty might not doom some of them.

 

[koonja]

I'm obviously the over optimistic one here, but I think them being silent on twitter is a good sign. If they were kicked off of the team, what do they really have to lose? I'd expect more 'fuck this', or 'SMH' tweets at the very least.

I certainly wouldn't give a fuck what ND advised me not to do at that point. ND would have taken away my senior year and chance to improve my draft stock for 3 of them. I'm certainly not going down quietly.

 

[IrishLax]

If we lose KVR, we will be down to 12 players from the 2012 class!

That's a wild amount of defections from a class:

Neal, Kiel, Ferguson, Shepard, Mahone, (possibly Russell) from an 18 man class.

~33% loss rate

85% of the depth problems on this team area related to:
1. 2011 class injuries.
2. 2012 class flameouts.

If you took all of our "committed" prospects from 11/12 and got them all to stick our team would be absurd. The reason we never match our recruiting rankings in terms of on field production is directly related to this attrition.

 

[Cali_domer]

I'm obviously the over optimistic one here, but I think them being silent on twitter is a good sign. If they were kicked off of the team, what do they really have to lose? I'd expect more 'fuck this', or 'SMH' tweets at the very least.

I'm in this camp!

 

[woolybug25]

Innocent and not guilty aren't the same thing. They probably aren't completely innocent, but they could still escape severe punishment. They are also probably under strict directive to lay low right now.

This is an interesting point. The Du Lac is very clear on what consists of "academic dishonesty" (I'm on my phone, but I highly suggest googling it to see what I mean) and if the school cannot actually prove anything, do these students have any legal recourse?

I mean, there are difinitive rules regarding what cheating consists of, and whether or not they did it or not, there has to be reasonable proof of it taking place. This decision by the university could end up costing these guys big time. KRuss could slide in the NFL draft, and Ishaq desperately needed this season. Hell, kicking him out could cost him his NFL career in its entirety.

I understand the school wanting to protect its academic integrity. But shouldn't there be some integrity to the honor code process on their end as well?

 

[tussin]

85% of the depth problems on this team area related to:
1. 2011 class injuries.
2. 2012 class flameouts.

If you took all of our "committed" prospects from 11/12 and got them all to stick our team would be absurd. The reason we never match our recruiting rankings in terms of on field production is directly related to this attrition.

Need moar JuCos.

 

[BobD]

If I was losing the opportunity of a lifetime because I was accused of something that I wasnt guilty of....I'd already be on espn

If I was guilty.....I'd have already called Saban.

 

[Booslum31]

If I was losing the opportunity of a lifetime because I was accused of something that I wasnt guilty of....I'd already be on espn

If I was guilty.....I'd have already called Saban.

I'm afraid you are right...

 

[IrishSteelhead]

I don't know. On one hand you would want to speak your side and reaffirm innocence, but this story has been dead for awhile in the mainstream media's eyes and all you'd be doing is bringing more attention to yourself and the negative press surrounding you.

 

[Crazy Balki]

I'm obviously the over optimistic one here, but I think them being silent on twitter is a good sign. If they were kicked off of the team, what do they really have to lose? I'd expect more 'fuck this', or 'SMH' tweets at the very least.

I certainly wouldn't give a fuck what ND advised me not to do at that point. ND would have taken away my senior year and chance to improve my draft stock for 3 of them. I'm certainly not going down quietly.

I kinda agree with you. On one hand, if they truly cheated, then they have no one to blame but themselves, but the way ND has handled situation has been so porous. They're basically adding insult to injury by making this bigger than it actually is (I don't care what is going on. I'm willing to bet it's nowhere near as big as the admins have made it out to be.) They've effectively been dragging their names through the mud, and for what? Upholding their academic "integrity" by systematically kamikazee'ing their reputation? Smart call their Johnny boy...

 

[Irish YJ]

IDK... IMO it could still go either way.

We've heard "insider" info on both sides of the fence. One says 3 of 4 are cleared, another says other sports are impacted and we're vacating wins. Perhaps there's more out there that I'm not aware of, but the simple fact that there is nothing solid out there gaining speed leads me to think they are still going through a process.

The silence from students and parents doesn't really lead me to believe one thing or another. Could mean they know they are guilty and waiting to find out the punishment, could mean they know they will be cleared and waiting on the process.

Team photos... nothing there either IMO. If the university pulled them from all athletic activities pending the investigation,,, photos are part of the activities.

Trying not to spend too much time in the thread, or think too much about it. Have I missed something?

 

[Crazy Balki]

This is an interesting point. The Du Lac is very clear on what consists of "academic dishonesty" (I'm on my phone, but I highly suggest googling it to see what I mean) and if the school cannot actually prove anything, do these students have any legal recourse?

I mean, there are difinitive rules regarding what cheating consists of, and whether or not they did it or not, there has to be reasonable proof of it taking place. This decision by the university could end up costing these guys big time. KRuss could slide in the NFL draft, and Ishaq desperately needed this season. Hell, kicking him out could cost him his NFL career in its entirety.

I understand the school wanting to protect its academic integrity. But shouldn't there be some integrity to the honor code process on their end as well?

I'm sensing a pattern here:

- Pessimistic Rumors
- Angry Rambling
- Rants against the Admins
- Optimistic Rumors
- Days of Silence

2nd verse same as the first.

 

[ACamp1900]

I'm actually really impressed with how this story has just… vanished. It went from the ESPN wet dream of the month one day to… nothing, it’s surreal. No matter how it plays out I guess you have to admire how everything got and remained so quiet. Just about any other sports story getting this level of attention would have seen all kinds of things leaked out by now.

 

[Crazy Balki]

IDK... IMO it could still go either way.

We've heard "insider" info on both sides of the fence. One says 3 of 4 are cleared, another says other sports are impacted and we're vacating wins. Perhaps there's more out there that I'm not aware of, but the simple fact that there is nothing solid out there gaining speed leads me to think they are still going through a process.

The silence from students and parents doesn't really lead me to believe one thing or another. Could mean they know they are guilty and waiting to find out the punishment, could mean they know they will be cleared and waiting on the process.

Team photos... nothing there either IMO. If the university pulled them from all athletic activities pending the investigation,,, photos are part of the activities.

Trying not to spend too much time in the thread, or think too much about it. Have I missed something?

According to an Inside Source, Notre Dame is part of some sort of Freemasons conspiracy theory to overthrow a legion of spiders led by Gary Oldman underneath the White House.