Political Correctness thread

[wizards8507]

You started off completely reasonably. Well... at least you could argue your initial position. But then you underscored your point with an article using "thecollegefix.com" as your source.

Can we not have a reasonable discussion without one side throwing out a hate piece run by the most wayward faction's of their ideologies?

Don't be dumb. I assume you're better than that.

I've never heard of thecollegefix.com. This is an OFFICIAL publication from the University of Missouri. This chart has been published at universities all around the country. It first came to light in the UC system I believe, but UC has taken it down due to the controversy. Google any university name and the word "microaggression" and you'll get a similar nonsense list of things you can't say.

https://diversity.missouri.edu/summ...microaggressions_in_everyday_life-handout.pdf

 

[connor_in]

Where are you guys getting that the idea here is to be hateful and vile? If you think that, then that is your construct. I think this thread is about PC going too far to the point that free speech is so infringed upon that people today are against it. There have been various articles and news stories about growing percentages of people (mainly college students) being against free speech. That blows my mind! I grew up in the 70's and there was still the leftovers of the free speech movements of the 60's and people were outspoken about everyone should be heard. Fast forward to today and the feeling is if you don't agree with me then you are hurtful to me and should not be allowed to speak. It has totally turned upside down and I do not see how you can take that as a good thing. There is modulating your speech for polite company, but these people are shutting down ideas. Is that the world you want to live in? That you want your children to grow up in?

I have brought comedians and humorous videos into the thread. Comedy has traditionally broken down doors in society to speak about topics that people wouldn't discuss normally. Shows like All in the Family used humor to broach all sorts of subjects. Now you couldn't put a show like that on without innumerable protests and comedians won't even try to go on campuses.

Watching what you say in front of others to be cordial is fine, but that isn't what PC is about anymore. Now it is shutting out ideas, becoming the thought police of 1984. That is not right.

You guys who are afraid of what this thread will become...fine. That is your right. I think this is more about the idea and not about people like Trump being unprofessional and without decorum. PC existed and grew before he started running for president.

There is being abusive with language which is wrong, but what is termed abusive is growing...and that is what scares me.

 

[JughedJones]

So your definition of "reasonable discussion" is "I can call you dumb, but you can't cite anything that I don't agree with"?

Nope. It's asking for a coherent discussion.

The poster was using an editorial as 'proof' that "PC Culture" is out of control. There's a lot of good arguments to be had on that side, but quoting that mess isn't one of them.

I cited the most recent Republican debate to highlight my side. I said that when the 'moderate' is making dick jokes... maybe the 'anti-pc' culture is showing their colors.

Maybe I'm wrong. Don't respond with crap. GIGO.

 

[JughedJones]

I've never heard of thecollegefix.com. This is an OFFICIAL publication from the University of Missouri. This chart has been published at universities all around the country. It first came to light in the UC system I believe, but UC has taken it down due to the controversy. Google any university name and the word "microaggression" and you'll get a similar nonsense list of things you can't say.

https://diversity.missouri.edu/summ...microaggressions_in_everyday_life-handout.pdf

brother, all I did was copy and paste your post on google. It came up that everything you said was taken, to a word, from a post from "thecollegefix.com". Do it yourself.

Either you copy and pasted what you said, or you are so well programmed that you're spitting out the same bullshit unwittingly.

 

[wizards8507]

brother, all I did was copy and paste your post on google. It came up that everything you said was taken, to a word, from a post from "thecollegefix.com". Do it yourself.

Either you copy and pasted what you said, or you are so well programmed that you're spitting out the same bullshit unwittingly.

I copied and pasted it from the University of Missouri's own publication.

I'll link it again in case you sincerely just missed it.

https://diversity.missouri.edu/summ...microaggressions_in_everyday_life-handout.pdf

What are you missing here. The Univeristy of Missouri and a whole bunch of other universities publish a chart. I point out the chart is bullshit. You say my criticism is illegitimate because some website "thecollegefix.com" also identified it as bullshit. If Adolf Hitler said "grass is green," it wouldn't be incorrect just because you don't like the messenger.

 

[JughedJones]

I copied and pasted it from the University of Missouri's own publication.

I'll link it again in case you sincerely just missed it.

https://diversity.missouri.edu/summ...microaggressions_in_everyday_life-handout.pdf

What are you missing here. The Univeristy of Missouri and a whole bunch of other universities publish a chart. I point out the chart is bullshit. You say my criticism is illegitimate because some website "thecollegefix.com" also identified it as bullshit. If Adolf Hitler said "grass is green," it wouldn't be incorrect just because you don't like the messenger.

Wow.

You're melting down. Take a lap, kid.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

 

[NDgradstudent]

Wow.

You're melting down. Take a lap, kid.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Godwin's law is not relevant here- nobody is comparing anyone to Hitler; instead, Hitler is being used to make an obvious logical point. The reductio ad Hitlerum is more relevant. And it is true that just because Hitler said something doesn't make it wrong. Similarly, just because the "College Fix" said something doesn't make it wrong. To assume so is to engage in fallacious reasoning.

 

[wizards8507]

Wow.

You're melting down. Take a lap, kid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Try again.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Where are you guys getting that the idea here is to be hateful and vile? If you think that, then that is your construct. I think this thread is about PC going too far to the point that free speech is so infringed upon that people today are against it. There have been various articles and news stories about growing percentages of people (mainly college students) being against free speech. That blows my mind! I grew up in the 70's and there was still the leftovers of the free speech movements of the 60's and people were outspoken about everyone should be heard. Fast forward to today and the feeling is if you don't agree with me then you are hurtful to me and should not be allowed to speak. It has totally turned upside down and I do not see how you can take that as a good thing. There is modulating your speech for polite company, but these people are shutting down ideas. Is that the world you want to live in? That you want your children to grow up in?

I have brought comedians and humorous videos into the thread. Comedy has traditionally broken down doors in society to speak about topics that people wouldn't discuss normally. Shows like All in the Family used humor to broach all sorts of subjects. Now you couldn't put a show like that on without innumerable protests and comedians won't even try to go on campuses.

Watching what you say in front of others to be cordial is fine, but that isn't what PC is about anymore. Now it is shutting out ideas, becoming the thought police of 1984. That is not right.

You guys who are afraid of what this thread will become...fine. That is your right. I think this is more about the idea and not about people like Trump being unprofessional and without decorum. PC existed and grew before he started running for president.

There is being abusive with language which is wrong, but what is termed abusive is growing...and that is what scares me.

Nail on the head. #safespace

 

[Black Irish]

Notice how the posters in this thread who are so worried about it becoming a mess of angry vitriol were the first people who started throwing the verbal bombs.

 

[wizards8507]

I'm hesitant to bring it up because Jughed was misusing Godwin's law in the first place, but assuming he had used it correctly...

Godwin's law is bullshit. Comparing someone or something to Hitler or Nazis isn't de facto illegitimate if, in fact, the person or thing is actually behaving in a Hitler or Nazi-ish way.

Example:

Tyrant Donald detains all Muslim Americans and waterboards them to see who's a terrorist.
Protestor Steve points out that Tyrant Donald is being like Hitler.
Internet Troll Jughed says "haha Steve is wrong because Godwin's law says you can't bring up Hitler or you lose!"

 

[JughedJones]

I'm hesitant to bring it up because Jughed was misusing Godwin's law in the first place, but assuming he had used it correctly...

Godwin's law is bullshit. Comparing someone or something to Hitler or Nazis isn't de facto illegitimate if, in fact, the person or thing is actually behaving in a Hitler or Nazi-ish way.

Keep on melting, weirdo.

 

[Black Irish]

Was actually watching a youtube video of "The Year in News" from MTV from around 1989. Kirk Loder made mention of how this new thing called PC was gaining roots across some college campuses. Said something to the effect that "short" people were now being called "vertically challenged."He went on to referenced a Time magazine front page cover article about it.

I guess my question is this: What, when, and where did the origins of PC actually start?

George Carlin did a great bit in the late 80s about euphemisms. A lot of the logic also applies to the PC movement. Some people decide that some words & phrases are just too harsh and direct so we need to come up with more pleasant-sounding alternatives. The result often is that you wind up with new words & phrases that either obscure the subject or are describing something opposite. For instance, substituting "handicapable" or "differently-abled" in place of "disabled." It's fanciful, feel-good BS that insults, rathers then serves, the people being described. My own example is how some people will give you the stink eye if you say "Black" instead of "African-American." We go from "Black is Beautiful" and "I'm Black and I'm Proud" to "You can't say 'Black' because it's not the done thing in polite society!"

 

[JughedJones]

Was actually watching a youtube video of "The Year in News" from MTV from around 1989. Kirk Loder made mention of how this new thing called PC was gaining roots across some college campuses. Said something to the effect that "short" people were now being called "vertically challenged."He went on to referenced a Time magazine front page cover article about it.

I guess my question is this: What, when, and where did the origins of PC actually start?

George Carlin did a great bit in the late 80s about euphemisms. A lot of the logic also applies to the PC movement. Some people decide that some words & phrases are just too harsh and direct so we need to come up with more pleasant-sounding alternatives. The result often is that you wind up with new words & phrases that either obscure the subject or are describing something opposite. For instance, substituting "handicapable" or "differently-abled" in place of "disabled." It's fanciful, feel-good BS that insults, rathers then serves, the people being described. My own example is how some people will give you the stink eye if you say "Black" instead of "African-American." We go from "Black is Beautiful" and "I'm Black and I'm Proud" to "You can't say 'Black' because it's not the done thing in polite society!"

So. You run into a rash of folks telling you not to refer to black people as black?

Or was that a thing you saw on the internet?.

Be honest.

 

[no.1IrishFan]

Sorority punished for "Taco Tuesday" themed party.
https://www.thefire.org/cases/calif...unishment-sorority-inappropriate-theme-party/

 

[wizards8507]

This is timely.

The Mounting Threats to Free Speech on Campus - The Atlantic

 

[kmoose]

Sorority punished for "Taco Tuesday" themed party.
https://www.thefire.org/cases/calif...unishment-sorority-inappropriate-theme-party/

 

[IrishLax]

I'm not sure where you're coming from here. I have respect for you and appreciate where you come from in this community. But, are you saying that words should never be considered violence, and that they can't do irreparable harm to people?

The term 'micro-aggression' is admittedly annoying, but it defines a very real thing. This is where smart people get hostile with each other.I know you understand all of this, but the terminology rightfully pisses you off. You're right, and I'm right.

I am not gonna post in this thread any more after this as I feel this will just end up allowing the Trump in people to finally come out. That's fine and I won't judge. Speaking ones mind is great but somethings are better left unsaid and some of the assertions already being leveled in here are cringeworthy at a minimum.

For example, the ideas that verbal abuse is not as damaging as physical abuse is cookoo. As a first hand observer of Long term verbal abuse, it can forever alter and cripple a person no matter how strong their personal constitution is. Sure... Is a few personal insults that bad??? We don't know how people internalize stuff like that. But say a person is weak or stupid or dumb because of their responses to what they perceive as aggression is a bit presumptive.

As with most things, we know more about ourselves now than we did when Kurt Loder broadcasted on MTV. Remember when Jenny McCarthy was a hot piece as ass on Remote Control? Now she is an antivaxxer. We know more about the damage certain aspects of society do to our citizens. We know that long term verbal abuse can cause people to do things and think things even physical abuse can't.

To the bolded, it's not - at all - the point of what I was saying and I want to clarify that.

The point being made was in the general context of the issue of political correctness. For example, no one is arguing that a group of people bullying an openly gay person with "GOD HATES FAGS" or telling them to kill themselves is not both 1) morally wrong 2) a significant problem.

But that's very different than someone saying "I don't think we should let in Syrian refugees right now because..." and an audience member going "I HAVE SUFFERED VIOLENCE AND TRAUMA AT THE HANDS OF THIS SPEAKER AND THEIR BIGOTED, ISLAMAPHOBIC REMARKS!"

The point I was making is that the latter is political correctness gone wrong, and it's an extreme threat to intellectualism in this country. Moreover, I think it's part of a larger cultural change where people are being taught to raise hell any time they are even mildly offended. It's not that words can't do harm, it's that people are being taught that they should feel victimized/offended/assaulted/traumatized any time someone expresses a thought that isn't PC... whereas when I was growing up, the premium was put on free speech, being mentally tough, and working through disagreements.

The biggest difference is that politeness is enforced (if you want to call it that) by social norms and standards. Political correctness is enforced by intellectual gatekeepers who solely determine what is acceptable discourse. The standards they set are designed to suppress dissent, not encourage politeness.

Exactly.

My God, there are college campuses where you can't say "America is the land of opportunity" because that's racist. That's fucked.

Other things you can't say:
-The most qualified person should get the job.
-Everyone can succeed if they work hard enough.
-We're going to raise enough money to get Johnny that new wheelchair.
-Let me help you with that (to a person with a disability).

Are you fucking kidding me? PC literally dictates that you can't raise money for a disabled person because it'll make you feel good about yourself so the charity is illegitimate. You can't help a person who may be struggling with a physical disability because it portrays them as incapable. So be a good little PC warrior and slam the door behind you if you see someone approaching in a wheelchair. I'm sure they'll thank you for treating them as equals.

Really, this entire post is excellent. To the bolded, I have one friend who is absurdly polite. Holds the door for everyone and all that jazz. One day we were walking into a restaurant and he held the door for a woman... she literally stops and snaps at him "DON'T HOLD THE DOOR FOR ME BECAUSE I'M A WOMAN." That's political correctness gone wrong. A guy who treats everyone the same, polite way being yelled at in public for the crime of being polite.

Notice how the posters in this thread who are so worried about it becoming a mess of angry vitriol were the first people who started throwing the verbal bombs.

Nothing else to say to this but +1.

 

[woolybug25]

Notice how the posters in this thread who are so worried about it becoming a mess of angry vitriol were the first people who started throwing the verbal bombs.

That's bullshit. Cack and I were the first people to point this out, and neither of us have thrown a single insult. We both were quite respectful.

Jughed chose a different tone, and that's his perogative, but don't lump the rest of us in as aggressors.

 

[IrishLax]

That's bullshit. Cack and I were the first people to point this out, and neither of us have thrown a single insult. We both were quite respectful.

Jughed chose a different tone, and that's his perogative, but don't lump the rest of us in as aggressors.

Cack threw some stuff around, but obviously in good fun. I agree that the only one who started going after people was Jughead... but I do understand where he's coming from, too.

 

[Bishop2b5]

...the ideas that verbal abuse is not as damaging as physical abuse is cookoo. As a first hand observer of Long term verbal abuse, it can forever alter and cripple a person no matter how strong their personal constitution is. Sure... Is a few personal insults that bad??? We don't know how people internalize stuff like that. But say a person is weak or stupid or dumb because of their responses to what they perceive as aggression is a bit presumptive.

I don't believe reasonable people would deny that actual verbal abuse isn't harmful nor acceptable. There's a HUGE difference though between hateful verbal assault or calling for violence against someone, and disagreeing with them or challenging their beliefs or assertions.

A big part of a person's growth and education during college (and throughout life in general hopefully) is having virtually all your opinions, views and beliefs challenged. You either change those things in light of new info and ways of thinking about them or you strengthen your beliefs after being forced to research & defend them. Either way, you've learned something and grown. These hyper-fanatic PC college kids are missing that experience and opportunity and their thought police approach is denying others their own right to have opinions or views and engage in reasonable dialogue or speech. This is a straight up Orwellian groupthink thing where thought & freedom are replaced with mindless indoctrination and the oppression and silencing of anyone who doesn't toe the party line and agree with them about everything.

 

[BGIF]

Notice how the posters in this thread who are so worried about it becoming a mess of angry vitriol were the first people who started throwing the verbal bombs.

That's bullshit. Cack and I were the first people to point this out, and neither of us have thrown a single insult. We both were quite respectful.

Jughed chose a different tone, and that's his perogative, but don't lump the rest of us in as aggressors.

No, it's not.

I don't know if Lax is being a moderator or simply missed the swipes. There was no humor in Cack's post. It's the same tenor he puts into a response to anyone posting something of a religious nature. It's like the Romeny Swipe yesterday. Anyone that doesn't see it their way is stupid.

Black Irish called it precisely. You both went to hate speech arguments when hate speech wasn't there. Melissa Click would be proud of both of you. "Can we get some muscle over here."

 

[IrishLion]

I have one friend who is absurdly polite. Holds the door for everyone and all that jazz. One day we were walking into a restaurant and he held the door for a woman... she literally stops and snaps at him "DON'T HOLD THE DOOR FOR ME BECAUSE I'M A WOMAN." That's political correctness gone wrong. A guy who treats everyone the same, polite way being yelled at in public for the crime of being polite.

No joke, this has happened to me twice in the past three years. I work on a relatively small college campus, and our "regular" students and faculty are a fairly small community where everybody basically knows everybody, so I try to be polite at work (and life in general of course, because why not, but especially on campus). I'll wait on someone that's still got a good walk to the door just to hold it for them, or I'll hold the elevator doors for an extra few seconds to see if anyone is hurrying around the corner in the morning.

One day, I was aware that there was a female walking behind me, so I slowed down once I got to our entrance and then held the door for a few seconds. When she got to the door, she said, "you waited all that time to hold the door for me? Chivalry is so degrading sometimes ugh" as she walked right by me. I was speechless. I thought she was kidding at first, so I kind of laughed and said to her back, "yeah sorry!" in a sarcastic tone, but she turned and gave me the worst stink-eye I've ever seen. Unreal.

Another time, I was walking ahead of an older lady. I held the door for her, just like I do for every single person that walks behind me, and she had this pissy look on her face and said, "I can get the door myself, thank you."

Either I give off predator vibes that I'm not aware of, or these women be trippin' on obviously aggressive feminism.

 

[IrishLion]

There's a HUGE difference though between hateful verbal assault or calling for violence against someone, and disagreeing with them or challenging their beliefs or assertions.

There's also a difference between actual verbal assault and minor bullying, IMO, which is an entirely different aspect of the issue. As mentioned before, kids aren't taught to grow thick skin when other kids are being idiots. They are essentially taught to feel hurt and cry foul whenever someone is being mean.

This is an issue, because bringing kids up like this means it's harder for them to differentiate between bigger-picture things in the future. Where reasonable adults see intelligent debate, adults that were raised as victims see hurtful opinions that constitute abuse.

I don't want to be that "quit raising pus*ies!" guy, because it's not that simple. But teaching kids to grow thicker skin while trying to work through their issues with their peers is a very important part of growing up that doesn't happen enough anymore. People don't reach adulthood knowing how to stand up for themselves without feeling like a victim first and foremost.

 

[Cackalacky]

No, it's not.

I don't know if Lax is being a moderator or simply missed the swipes. There was no humor in Cack's post. It's the same tenor he puts into a response to anyone posting something of a religious nature. It's like the Romeny Swipe yesterday. Anyone that doesn't see it their way is stupid.

Is that how I come off?

 

[BeauBenken]

I think this is a discussion I will stay out of for the most part, but since this PC stuff is largely centered around universities, as a current student I can assure you it is a real thing. As well, the argument in here really seems to be based around a confusion of what is happening. It is not about whether offensive things should be allowed to be said; the issue is that you mistreated, cast out, or ostracized for having opposing viewpoints.

I do not typically align myself with any political siding, but if I did, I usually think of myself as a libertarian or moderate. Whatever helps people understand my overall political mindset. Be that as it may, I often get a response of dismay from my friends simply for having not-liberal views.

Here's some things that would get people thinking I'm the next Hitler (note, I'm not saying these are my actual views):

• Disagreeing with the #BlackLivesMatter movement in any form
• Disagreeing with the new Feminist movement in any form
• Agreeing with Trump or voting for Trump
• Believing in binary genders
• Disagreeing with the necessity of "safe-spaces"

I could probably name more, but I need to head out to catch this McGregor fight. My point is that any non-liberal (though I am not sure I want to call it that because these things are not specifically liberal) seems unwelcome, and while I love debating topics like these, I have learned it is better to just keep my mouth shut and my head down because doing otherwise is socially dangerous.

And by socially dangerous, I do not mean I ever feel like I am in any physical danger (then again, I for the most part keep my mouth shut), but I mean I feel I would be ostracized, labeled a racist or a sexist or what have you, and probably receive some serious public verbal lashings.

 

[NDgradstudent]

Here's some things that would get people thinking I'm the next Hitler (note, I'm not saying these are my actual views):

• Disagreeing with the #BlackLivesMatter movement in any form
• Disagreeing with the new Feminist movement in any form
• Agreeing with Trump or voting for Trump
• Believing in binary genders
• Disagreeing with the necessity of "safe-spaces"

I am saying those are my views. Except for #3.

 

[BGIF]

Is that how I come off?

I sent you a PM.

 

[connor_in]

Watching PCU with Jeremy Piven and Jon Favreau. It was made made in 1994 as a satire taking PC to absurd levels.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

This thread is just the opposite of the echo chamber that you all hate.