Oct 27 | Navy

[ACamp1900]

Love the discussion about stopping the option. In years when we've had trouble (and lost) with Navy we had trouble stopping the full back...it was infuriating. He needs to be hit at the LOS every play whether he has the ball or not. When he doesn't get the ball he becomes a blocker at the second level...Joe Schmidt experienced this big time. Other than that, the aforementioned gap control and force the early pitch and clean up come into play. If Navy's FB averages 5 yards on first down (as in the past) we will be in for another frustrating Saturday.

Don't get wiz started....


but yeah there were a few games there, "How the hell is a FB dive getting five yards every freaking time!?!?!"

 

[BobbyMac]

Don't get wiz started....


but yeah there were a few games there, "How the hell is a FB dive getting five yards every freaking time!?!?!"

If I bump into you in the parking lot at the Murph remember... no Asian taco massages in Irvine were ever discussed. Ms. Crusader might not be as understanding as I've led on.

This post will self-destruct in 5 seconds...

 

[NDohio]

FEI projects a 37 point Irish victory, with a 99% chance of at least winning outright:

So, that's good, right?

 

[ulukinatme]

Love the discussion about stopping the option. In years when we've had trouble (and lost) with Navy we had trouble stopping the full back...it was infuriating. He needs to be hit at the LOS every play whether he has the ball or not. When he doesn't get the ball he becomes a blocker at the second level...Joe Schmidt experienced this big time. Other than that, the aforementioned gap control and force the early pitch and clean up come into play. If Navy's FB averages 5 yards on first down (as in the past) we will be in for another frustrating Saturday.

I seem to recall Tillery's freshman year we switched back to a 3-4 when he was in, and he did a pretty darn good job controlling the A gap and bottling up the Fullback. Then we switched packages/personnel, and I think we went back to a 4-3 at times during the game and it did not work well. I don't know if it was just the personnel (I want to say Tillery came out and Cage or Bonner came in at some point), scheme, or both but we were getting gashed by the Fullback when Tillery wasn't out there or in situations where we were using the 4-3 instead of the 3-4.

Looking back at the game replay you can see it. We seem to be running the 4-3 first series, and Navy gashed us every which way and scored an easy TD. We switched to 3-4 in the 2nd series and had Tillery, Rochell, and Day up front and we held them to a punt.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/lIpCnGT85VM" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Watching these first two series again, it brings to mind another important key to the game: Tackling! We need to make sure we employ good tackling in this game.

 

[ulukinatme]

FEI projects a 37 point Irish victory, with a 99% chance of at least winning outright:

So, we can expect this one to go to overtime? /noitalics

 

[ACamp1900]

If I bump into you in the parking lot at the Murph remember... no Asian taco massages in Irvine were ever discussed. Ms. Crusader might not be as understanding as I've led on.

This post will self-destruct in 5 seconds...

I was so ready to go...

 

[ulukinatme]

I seem to recall Tillery's freshman year we switched back to a 3-4 when he was in, and he did a pretty darn good job controlling the A gap and bottling up the Fullback. Then we switched packages/personnel, and I think we went back to a 4-3 at times during the game and it did not work well. I don't know if it was just the personnel (I want to say Tillery came out and Cage or Bonner came in at some point), scheme, or both but we were getting gashed by the Fullback when Tillery wasn't out there or in situations where we were using the 4-3 instead of the 3-4.

Looking back at the game replay you can see it. We seem to be running the 4-3 first series, and Navy gashed us every which way and scored an easy TD. We switched to 3-4 in the 2nd series and had Tillery, Rochell, and Day up front and we held them to a punt.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/lIpCnGT85VM" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Watching these first two series again, it brings to mind another important key to the game: Tackling! We need to make sure we employ good tackling in this game.

Watching the 3rd series, Cage came in for Tillery and we gave up some yards, however a bad pitch (And a review that actually went in our favor) led to a fumble and a Jaylon recovery. 4th series Tillery gets hurt, which I did not remember (Think he was just a bit banged up, cause I think he comes back later) and Cage comes back in.

The VERY next play (1:06:05) the FB ran the ball off tackle, Rochelle got double teamed and was pushed inside, Schmidt was slow reacting to the play I think and he got sealed off by a RB coming up through the hole, and Onwalu was outside of the play because his job was QB but he was also chipped by the TE so he wasn't going to make a play anyway. FB had a great running lane and took it to the house. There was no Safety because Shumate bit on the QB/2RB on the outside run and he was also blocked by the same TE that chipped Onwalu. It was great execution by Navy, and all I can tell is that Schmidt was slow getting in position which allowed the RB to easily seal him off...then it was just a matter of getting by Shumate who didn't see the FB had the ball initially as he was moving toward the QB/RB2 expecting a pitch.

 

[Luckylucci]

To add to this, option football is about controlling the LOS and gap control.... if our DEs get more than 2 yds deep of the LOS we lost that play. If they're getting pushed back then we lost that play. It's very important for the DEs to control the LOS and slow play the qb to make a pitch. They call this stringing the play out. As for our interior, they'll have to do a great job with gap control. That means pushing the LOS into the backfield no more than a yd or two and not allowing the C/G combo to work effectively.

Pressure in an option offense is about as opportunistic to an offense as pressure in a screen game is

I have a differing view on stringing out the play. IMO, the goal should be to shut down the FB dive and force the QB pitch as soon as possible. Essentially limiting the variables to the play as soon as possible.

That's why you see teams crash mesh points all the time, same goes for zone/read or RPO offenses. Because it forces a decision sooner than the offense would usually like. Less time to read and forced into reacting. You get the ball out early, you have the defense flowing to one player and one option.

Ideally, a triple option offense would never have to pitch the ball. That's usually where most of the TO's come from. It's also most common when there is some sort of contact or chaos with the QB early. They'd like to get 4yds/carry on FB dives or QB keepers. Lastly, the earlier that ball is pitched, the least convenient the ball carriers body is to immediately make a play. You'd like that back to get the ball as he's still somewhat horizontal, not vertical and attacking the LOS.

Stringing out the play, allows that back to loop around and start moving towards the LOS with a head of steam. In fact, a lot of there big pitch plays come where the QB gets leverage on the outside and throws a last minute pitch to the back. At that point, there usually isn't a defender accounting for the ball carrier.

 

[Irishize]

According to Navy, slot-back Spencer Perry is probable to play.

 

[Irishize]

“Why Notre Dame Should Drop Its Rivalry with the Naval Academy”

https://scholastic.nd.edu/issues/why-notre-dame-should-drop-its-rivalry-with-the-naval-academy/

 

[BobbyMac]

“Why Notre Dame Should Drop Its Rivalry with the Naval Academy”

https://scholastic.nd.edu/issues/why-notre-dame-should-drop-its-rivalry-with-the-naval-academy/

Counterpoint:

Is the language in the agreement really = ND promised Navy that it would forever have a place on its football schedule

If so, seems ND's contract with Navy is non-modifiable.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/TBT?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#TBT</a>: When a majority of <a href="https://twitter.com/NotreDame?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@NotreDame</a> students enlisted in World War II, the University came close to shutting down and <a href="https://twitter.com/USNavy?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@USNavy</a> accepted an offer to use campus for training. As a result, ND promised <a href="https://twitter.com/NavyAthletics?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@NavyAthletics</a> that it would forever have a place on its football schedule. <a href="https://t.co/CKc0CYQmWY">pic.twitter.com/CKc0CYQmWY</a></p>— ND Business (@NDBusiness) <a href="https://twitter.com/NDBusiness/status/1055537697178222592?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 25, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[BobbyMac]

Of course, then there's this. ask Ed Oliver if he'd like to have seen Houston drop Navy before this year's game.

Dats some dirty sh!t right dare.

<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/1dJQX6kkjZpuxJf8mu" width="480" height="246" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/1dJQX6kkjZpuxJf8mu">via GIPHY</a></p>

I would have ZERO problem if Oliver could hold the US Gov't liable if that cost him future earnings.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Did y'all know this?

https://www.capitalgazette.com/sports/navy_sports/ac-cs-navy-notre-dame-notebook-20181024-story.html

Navy has Amosa-Tagovailoa, Notre Dame has Tagovailoa-Amosa

 

[ickythump1225]

I used to want to drop Navy but I've come to realize it will never happen so I've let it go.

 

[ickythump1225]

That being said I want to be able to hate Navy like a normal rival and not have to spend all week and half the game heaping praise on them.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Counterpoint:

Is the language in the agreement really = ND promised Navy that it would forever have a place on its football schedule

If so, seems ND's contract with Navy is non-modifiable.

Simple. We rename the USC match to the "Annual USN Memorial Football Game". Navy will forever have a place on our schedule then.

 

[stlnd01]

We should keep playing Navy. They are a good rival for a lot of reasons (good school, similar values, national student/alumni base, pretty reliable win, TRADITION!!!) and you don’t stop playing a school you’ve always played because you don’t like their offensive system.

But we should be smart about where/when we play them. Like the Dublin game in 2020. That’s smart.

 

[Irish YJ]

I’ve seen it mentioned a few times so just wanted to chime in but our DE’s “containing the edge” against the triple option is not the same as it is against regular offenses. In most cases, against a triple option, your “edge” defenders will be responsible for the QB, meaning they actually want to force the pitch outside and do so as fast as possible. Where a LB/S can run the alley and make a play on the pitchman. So if/when a pitch goes outside for a gain, that doesn’t necessarily mean it was bad play on the “edge” defender, it more than likely meant the defender responsible for the pitch was at fault. Maybe late reading his keys and getting to his spot, not getting off blocks, etc.. With that said, you do need the edge defenders to force that decision as fast as possible.

I would assume we are very aggressive with attacking the various mesh points and trying to force decisions versus letting them string the plays out. Similar to what we did with Wake Forest.

Good point about the DEs and edge. Depending on which side, and what defense we are in (base defense, or other), the assignments can be all over the place. The DEs might have the dive in the B-gap on one side, and QB on the other. The LBs or Ss might have the QB or pitch on one side, or the other, and more or less become the DE. I almost think of the pitch guy as being more like the triple option's WR. I agree with you on that it's better to force a decision as early as possible and string things out if possible. It's also important to hold the line, while not getting too much penetration.

To add to this, option football is about controlling the LOS and gap control.... if our DEs get more than 2 yds deep of the LOS we lost that play. If they're getting pushed back then we lost that play. It's very important for the DEs to control the LOS and slow play the qb to make a pitch. They call this stringing the play out. As for our interior, they'll have to do a great job with gap control. That means pushing the LOS into the backfield no more than a yd or two and not allowing the C/G combo to work effectively.

Pressure in an option offense is about as opportunistic to an offense as pressure in a screen game is

Biggest thing I remember from researching last year, is not getting pushed back, and stopping 1st down plays with minimal gain. The more we get into 2nd or 3rd and short, the more we're F'd. 3rd and 6 or 7 is ideal. Would love to see us force the pitch as much as possible, as that will lead to pitches hitting the turf, and a few turnovers for the Irish.

The thing I'm most concerned with is gap exchanges and recognition of assignments. I wonder how similar Lea will play to Elko (from Lea's one year at BG, one year at WF, and one year at ND with Elko), or if he will change things up drawing years at UCLA or Syracuse.

I seem to recall Tillery's freshman year we switched back to a 3-4 when he was in, and he did a pretty darn good job controlling the A gap and bottling up the Fullback. Then we switched packages/personnel, and I think we went back to a 4-3 at times during the game and it did not work well. I don't know if it was just the personnel (I want to say Tillery came out and Cage or Bonner came in at some point), scheme, or both but we were getting gashed by the Fullback when Tillery wasn't out there or in situations where we were using the 4-3 instead of the 3-4.

Looking back at the game replay you can see it. We seem to be running the 4-3 first series, and Navy gashed us every which way and scored an easy TD. We switched to 3-4 in the 2nd series and had Tillery, Rochell, and Day up front and we held them to a punt.

Watching these first two series again, it brings to mind another important key to the game: Tackling! We need to make sure we employ good tackling in this game.

I'd like to think that our entire DL, combine with our LBs are several steps above years past. JT, both DEs, and all 3 LBs seem pretty well suited to defend Navy. Big question for me is how the DBs will perform, and will we see some guys more suited vs the run play. I think Gilman will be a mainstay, but not certain about the rest.

For instance, do we really need PBU stud Love, or guys like Pride? Might we throw some wrinkle Ds at them, say a heavier guy like Vaughn? Or even youngsters like Allen. Could we see two Rovers and go down a typical CB or Safety.

I've seen some crazy Ds constructed to combat the triple option. Can't wait to see what Clark does. We have a lot of talent to tinker with.

 

[Irish YJ]

For those who are triple option curious, GT is on right now vs VT on ESPN
Paul Johnson was one of Ken Niumatalolo's mentors.

 

[Irishize]

For those who are triple option curious, GT is on right now vs VT on ESPN
Paul Johnson was one of Ken Niumatalolo's mentors.

Notice how GT has been less of a factor in the ACC since their opponents have seen them a few times now. That has probably hurt Navy being in a conference now as well.

 

[Irishize]

Of course, then there's this. ask Ed Oliver if he'd like to have seen Houston drop Navy before this year's game.

Dats some dirty sh!t right dare.

<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/1dJQX6kkjZpuxJf8mu" width="480" height="246" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/1dJQX6kkjZpuxJf8mu">via GIPHY</a></p>

I would have ZERO problem if Oliver could hold the US Gov't liable if that cost him future earnings.

He was engaged w/ OL when that happened making that a chop block. Was there no flag on that play?

 

[zelezo vlk]

He was engaged w/ OL when that happened making that a chop block. Was there no flag on that play?

Per Jamie on ISD no

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

 

[ulukinatme]

Definitely an illegal chop block, should have been a flag.

 

[IrishBoognish]

I seem to recall Tillery's freshman year we switched back to a 3-4 when he was in, and he did a pretty darn good job controlling the A gap and bottling up the Fullback. Then we switched packages/personnel, and I think we went back to a 4-3 at times during the game and it did not work well. I don't know if it was just the personnel (I want to say Tillery came out and Cage or Bonner came in at some point), scheme, or both but we were getting gashed by the Fullback when Tillery wasn't out there or in situations where we were using the 4-3 instead of the 3-4.

Looking back at the game replay you can see it. We seem to be running the 4-3 first series, and Navy gashed us every which way and scored an easy TD. We switched to 3-4 in the 2nd series and had Tillery, Rochell, and Day up front and we held them to a punt.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/lIpCnGT85VM" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Watching these first two series again, it brings to mind another important key to the game: Tackling! We need to make sure we employ good tackling in this game.

I started watching this thing, and I got legit triggered. Bullshit holdings, no calls on chop blocks, good grief.

Becuz tha trooops.

I don't hate on Navy in general, but the only way these guys are allowed to play their offense is cuz tha troooops.

They. Play. Dirty.

 

[Irish YJ]

I started watching this thing, and I got legit triggered. Bullshit holdings, no calls on chop blocks, good grief.

Becuz tha trooops.

I don't hate on Navy in general, but the only way these guys are allowed to play their offense is cuz tha troooops.

They. Play. Dirty.

GT does it too. They aren't troops. Not sure if they are as bad as Navy, but they do the same shit. They typically have better athletes though too.

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

Please leave Terry Jillery's knees alone, for the love of God.

As a matter of fact, if any of our DLinemen go down, especially our starting four, I will be very upset.

Hoping we get up early, and get a healthy rotation of backups in the game to preserve the troops.

 

[IrishLion]

I was thinking of ways that you might frustrate or combat someone that wants to repeatedly dive at your knees... The only things I could come up with:

1. Give up the 3-4 yard gain to protect your knees, then slam the blocker's head into the ground, hoping you don't get kicked out of the game.

2. Let them come for your knees, but proactively knee them in the facemask, thereby snapping their head back and making them hesitant for fear of neck injury.

3. Dive below the cut block by getting lower even faster, create traffic on the ground, and let your LB's fill the lanes between the piles.

 

[greyhammer90]

I was thinking of ways that you might frustrate or combat someone that wants to repeatedly dive at your knees... The only things I could come up with:

1. Give up the 3-4 yard gain to protect your knees, then slam the blocker's head into the ground, hoping you don't get kicked out of the game.

2. Let them come for your knees, but proactively knee them in the facemask, thereby snapping their head back and making them hesitant for fear of neck injury.

3. Dive below the cut block by getting lower even faster, create traffic on the ground, and let your LB's fill the lanes between the piles.

It really depends where you are. If you're playing nose, creating a pile in the fullbacks lane isn't a bad option, so getting insanely low and creating a pile is alright, especially if you know your LBs are coming up to fill. If you have any contain responsibility at all, the best thing to do is use that momentum against them with your hands and guide them away from your knees. Basically let them take themselves out of the play by going to the ground and you should be unblocked.

 

[GowerND11]

It really depends where you are. If you're playing nose, creating a pile in the fullbacks lane isn't a bad option, so getting insanely low and creating a pile is alright, especially if you know your LBs are coming up to fill. If you have any contain responsibility at all, the best thing to do is use that momentum against them with your hands and guide them away from your knees. Basically let them take themselves out of the play by going to the ground and you should be unblocked.

This. Creating a pile could be a very vital play by Bonner tomorrow.

 

[Irishnuke]

I'll be there. Section P11, Row 18.