[NBA] vBook: Cavaliers vs Celtics

[Rocket89]

People trying to act line MJ wasn't guarded by The Glove smh. And his FINALS LEGACY isn't just the guy who guarded him. It's being 6/6 with 2 different 3 peats, separate dynasties, putting up crazy monster numbers, more Finals MVPs than anybody else (2nd is 3 behind him), oh and BTW he never ever went to Game 7.

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Gary Payton
Mitch Richmond
Joe Dumars
John Starks
Vernon Maxwell

Probably the top 5 defenders in some order against MJ. No question The Glove was tough but 3 of these 5 played their primes in a different conference and MJ was generally guarded by a ton of smaller guards.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Gary Payton
Mitch Richmond
Joe Dumars
John Starks
Vernon Maxwell

Probably the top 5 defenders in some order against MJ. No question The Glove was tough but 3 of these 5 played their primes in a different conference and MJ was generally guarded by a ton of smaller guards.

Forgot Dennis Rodman, who did most of the dirty work on Jordan in the Pistons hay-day.

Pretty surreal, but the 80's and 90's had most of the best perimeter defenders of all time.

 

[Crazy Balki]

"We should blame Lebron for Michael's multiple early retirements and that he wasn't in shape in Washington." This is a classic argument that I'll never understand. I don't think anyone has ever argued against longevity as a positive trait like MJ cultists.



"We shouldn't give credit to Lebron for having a higher FG percentage than MJ because Lebron takes higher percentage shots and because we shouldn't count Michael's bad shooting years because he shot badly then."

Michael was 39 years old and had 1 month to prepare for the season. Michael was able to play at peak performance even at 35 years old, but he also went through proper conditioning every season. For example, in 1995, when he came back, he looked noticeably worse than he did in '93 or than he did in 96-98, because he wasn't properly conditioned.

LeBron isn't even 34 yet. So yes, I feel using those 2 seasons would be inappropriate. We are comparing these players in their early and primal years.

Also, it's not as if Jordan wanted to leave the game, his dad was murdered and then Jerry Krause foolishly wanted to blow everything up and got rid of Phil Jackson.

 

[Rocket89]

Forgot Dennis Rodman, who did most of the dirty work on Jordan in the Pistons hay-day.

Pretty surreal, but the 80's and 90's had most of the best perimeter defenders of all time.

The whole league was built to make things as easy as possible for perimeter defenders during that era. That’s something that just can’t be overlooked.

https://www.sbnation.com/platform/a...nba-rules-changes-lebron-james-michael-jordan

 

[koonja]

“Winning championships isn’t everything”. Ok, but it’s something, and it means a lot more than the “advanced stats” that people bend to argue that LeBron is the greatest player of all time.

He’s lived in the East in a time where any all-timer is walking to the finals every year. He only has to win 1 series a year where he’s actually not favored in to be a champion, that’s pretty freaking wild. And joined the Heat to win 2 of his 3 titles, where Wade was coming off of a 30 ppg season, and Bosh was coming off of 24/11/52% shooting, both right in their prime.

His “reign” in the east is expected for any all-time great. Put Kobe, LeBron, MJ, Bird, etc. in the east during the last 10 years, and the only team they’ll worry about is the Paul Pierce Celtics.

The 2 titles with the Heat, cool, you can’t take them away from him even though that team was ridiculous. Then he’s won 1 more without them when the East is awful compared to the rest of the league. If you guys put him at the top because of stats, be my guest. Winning the title matters, especially when you have no real competition in the east.

 

[Irish#1]

Holy shit, the video clips he has in the responses are gold! I was a big fan of Jordan growing up, and I agree that he's probably still the best of all time, but people think Jordan was always going against some monster teams. The video evidence suggests otherwise. Lets not forget that he played with a cast that had 2 Hall of Famers and a handful of guys like Kerr that could end up in the HoF. Jordan was awesome, but top to bottom I would argue the NBA is more talented now than it was 20-30 years ago. The competition Lebron has faced has been better overall, which is part of the reason I think it's hard to compare the two. The sheer number of white guys in those old clips should say it all!

You can never really compare players and get a true evaluation of who was better. For every argument one way, you can argue to opposite. Referring to the bolded part I could say it was more difficult. Why? Today there are more teams, so the talent pool is more diluted than it was 30 years ago. The bottom line is this. If Jordan played today, he would excel. If James played 20 - 30 years ago, he would excel. Great players will be great regardless of the circumstances. They adapt to the competition and rules.

 

[Irish#1]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This is who MJ was playing IN THE FINALS!!! THEY HAD A GODDAMN JUNIOR COLLEGE CHESS PLAYER TRYING TO GUARD HIM. <a href="https://t.co/ulGgDVragb">pic.twitter.com/ulGgDVragb</a></p>— Drizzy (@Sp0rtsTalkJo3) <a href="https://twitter.com/Sp0rtsTalkJo3/status/979094355184058369?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 28, 2018</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">These are the defenses that you MJ stans say LeBron couldn’t survive against?<br><br>LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOK <a href="https://t.co/K5F5L1mJV1">pic.twitter.com/K5F5L1mJV1</a></p>— Drizzy (@Sp0rtsTalkJo3) <a href="https://twitter.com/Sp0rtsTalkJo3/status/979095190307856386?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 28, 2018</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">There’s more skinny white guys in this GIF than there are at a Kenny Chesney concert. <a href="https://t.co/WnrJcMi8Z3">pic.twitter.com/WnrJcMi8Z3</a></p>— Drizzy (@Sp0rtsTalkJo3) <a href="https://twitter.com/Sp0rtsTalkJo3/status/979097406573858816?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 28, 2018</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">LeBron in the NBA Finals: guarded by Andre Iguodala, Kawhi Leonard, Bruce Bowen, Draymond Green<br><br>Michael Jordan in the NBA Finals: guarded by a C-SPAN anchors <a href="https://t.co/owBVLZIzEU">pic.twitter.com/owBVLZIzEU</a></p>— Drizzy (@Sp0rtsTalkJo3) <a href="https://twitter.com/Sp0rtsTalkJo3/status/979111137458446337?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 28, 2018</a></blockquote>
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Please Barry...........Show us the highlights to fit your agenda, but leave off any clips where he went against the Pistons or the Pacers with the Davis boys. In addition has he not been watching the playoffs? James had plenty of wide open lanes against the Celtics.

 

[koonja]

The baddest man alive.

https://www.rollingstone.com/sports/features/8-times-kobe-bryant-didnt-give-a-f--k-20160414

My favorite:

6. "I'll be damned if we lose this fucking game"

This part is kind of gross. Although Bryant's comeback over the past few seasons has been heroic, for all intents and purposes, his career essentially came to an end on April 12, 2013 when he tore his Achilles tendon trying to lift the Lakers into the playoffs one last time. Let's just let ESPN's Baxter Holmes paint the picture for you:

"With 3:08 to play in the fourth quarter and the Warriors leading by two, Bryant, in his 45th minute of the night, drives against Barnes – and collapses. Bryant feels a sensation in the back of his left foot. 'Did you kick me?' he asks Barnes. Barnes says no.

'F---!' Bryant says. Teammates surround him. He can feel his Achilles roll up his leg.

And then he does the most Kobe Bryant thing ever. Using his fingers, Bryant tries to pull the tendon back down.

'I just tried to buy a little bit of time,' Bryant says now with a laugh. 'I was trying to figure out a way to play around it because if I can walk on my heel, maybe I can get around it because I don't have to get up on my toe. I had worked so hard to get us there. I'll be damned if we lose this fucking game and all that hard work goes to shit. I tried to finish the job.'"

Let that sink in for a moment. He was trying to find a way to PLAY AROUND a torn Achilles tendon. It's the injury that killed the greatest warrior of all time. Holmes further explained on Twitter that Kobe asked Lakers trainer Gary Vitti to tape his foot. "No," Vitti said. "You ruptured your Achilles."

 

[ulukinatme]

Please Barry...........Show us the highlights to fit your agenda, but leave off any clips where he went against the Pistons or the Pacers with the Davis boys. In addition has he not been watching the playoffs? James had plenty of wide open lanes against the Celtics.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">“LeBron wouldn’t have wanted any part of Bill Laimbeer. The Bad Boy Pistons would’ve made him cry like a baby”<br><br>🤣🤣🤣 <a href="https://t.co/nmwPlM57NW">pic.twitter.com/nmwPlM57NW</a></p>— Barry McCockiner (@Sp0rtsTalkJo3) <a href="https://twitter.com/Sp0rtsTalkJo3/status/979790977018843136?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 30, 2018</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Here are the rim protectors of the 1985 Bucks, who MJ lost to in the First Round. <br><br>LMFAOOOOOO <a href="https://t.co/pk3BkPVrYF">pic.twitter.com/pk3BkPVrYF</a></p>— Barry McCockiner (@Sp0rtsTalkJo3) <a href="https://twitter.com/Sp0rtsTalkJo3/status/979791783373824000?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 30, 2018</a></blockquote>
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[Rocket89]

“Winning championships isn’t everything”. Ok, but it’s something, and it means a lot more than the “advanced stats” that people bend to argue that LeBron is the greatest player of all time.

He’s lived in the East in a time where any all-timer is walking to the finals every year. He only has to win 1 series a year where he’s actually not favored in to be a champion, that’s pretty freaking wild. And joined the Heat to win 2 of his 3 titles, where Wade was coming off of a 30 ppg season, and Bosh was coming off of 24/11/52% shooting, both right in their prime.

His “reign” in the east is expected for any all-time great. Put Kobe, LeBron, MJ, Bird, etc. in the east during the last 10 years, and the only team they’ll worry about is the Paul Pierce Celtics.

The 2 titles with the Heat, cool, you can’t take them away from him even though that team was ridiculous. Then he’s won 1 more without them when the East is awful compared to the rest of the league. If you guys put him at the top because of stats, be my guest. Winning the title matters, especially when you have no real competition in the east.

How does one bend advanced stats?

Also, anyone wanna talk about the top 6 non-Bulls teams from the 1990's all being in the Western Conference or nah?

My favorite is LeBron's 2016 ring....the East was awful like the Cavs won a NBA title after beating the Raptors. Seems to be missing something important in there.

 

[Blazers46]

Let’s not forget why Lebrons team is awful this season. He signs off on very deal. He wanted Mr Kardashian, Rj Smith, and others. He is the reason Kyrie wanted out. Supporting cast stinks, look no further than the man in charge.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

[NBA] vBook: Cavaliers vs Celtics

Let’s not forget why Lebrons team is awful this season. He signs off on very deal. He wanted Mr Kardashian, Rj Smith, and others. He is the reason Kyrie wanted out. Supporting cast stinks, look no further than the man in charge.

BINGO


1. Highest payroll in league ($20 MILLION more than Rockets)

2. Only playoff team labeled repeat offender of luxury tax (Clippers)

3. Ownership that lets their star run the franchise

4. Most active team at deadline, that is always willing to SPEND WHATEVER IT TAKES to win

*Ill turn on ESPN this morning and hear about how Lebron gets no help, Cleveland is a poorly run franchise, and he needs to leave.

Lebron would be a freaking moron to leave. He saw the reaction after going to Miami, and his legacy is intact with 0, 1, or 10 more titles.

 

[greyhammer90]

Lebron would be a freaking moron to leave. He saw the reaction after going to Miami, and his legacy is intact with 0, 1, or 10 more titles.

It's interesting that you think him leaving now would get the same reaction as him leaving for Miami. I don't think he'd get any blowback at all except for a very vocal minority of anti-Lebrons and a small number of Cleveland fans. The only team that he could leave for that would actually hurt his legacy at this point is Golden State.

 

[koonja]

It's interesting that you think him leaving now would get the same reaction as him leaving for Miami. I don't think he'd get any blowback at all except for a very vocal minority of anti-Lebrons and a small number of Cleveland fans. The only team that he could leave for that would actually hurt his legacy at this point is Golden State.

Or the Rockets, who with CP3 and/or not having a historically impossible shooting night (0 for 27), beat the Warriors this year without Lebron?

 

[greyhammer90]

Or the Rockets, who with CP3 and/or not having a historically impossible shooting night (0 for 27), beat the Warriors this year without Lebron?

I don't think so. The Rockets are one of the top three places he was said to be looking at all year long and you are the first person I've seen on the internet complain about the possibility. Not meant as a dig, just telling you what I've seen online from nba fans. The nba subreddit has been peddling Lebron to Houston rumors all year and I've never once seen someone say "that would be a ***** move."

I think public opinion has shifted on this for two reasons: (1) Unlike when he went to Miami, Lebron has already proven that he's a top five player all time and he's gotten Cleveland their chip, so his basketball legacy is basically untouchable so long as he doesn't suddenly become a sexual predator or a public anti-Semite or something. He could retire tomorrow and most people would have him in their top 3. I don't think most fans believe he has much more to prove/do in Cleveland, especially since he's a few years away from having to shift to being an off-ball player. (2) Durant. Again, I think Durant's move to GS was so flagrantly about destroying any sense of parity in the NBA that it left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. Any move is now viewed through that lens, and looks way better. Also any move that serves to help destroy the Warriors is seen as a positive to a lot of NBA fans.

People try to compare Lebron going to Miami to Durant going to GSW, and its not close IMO. Miami became a juggernaut because Lebron chose to go there. Without Lebron, Miami with Wade and Bosh are probably a 3 seed most years, and they probably don't ever get past Boston/Chicago/Pacers to the Finals. Miami with just Wade was a 5 seed. Bosh in Toronto was an 8 seed. Lebron is what put that Miami team over the top. GSW, on the other hand, was already a superteam with the greatest regular season of all time. Then they added an MVP and the best pure scorer in the game.

 

[stlnd01]

Call me old-fashioned, but I think, in many cases, switching teams to chase rings is bad for the legacy. Is LeBron really going to be “greater” if he wins another title with Houston?

 

[koonja]

Call me old-fashioned, but I think, in many cases, switching teams to chase rings is bad for the legacy. Is LeBron really going to be “greater” if he wins another title with Houston?

Not to me. They literally would have beaten Warriors this year (therefore, champions) if one of 2 things happened: CP3 doesn't sit last 2 games and/or Rockets don't go 0/27 from 3.

Going to the Rockets and winning would do nothing for his legacy to someone like me. To greyhammer's point, whether or not the rest of the world sees it that way, I can't help the helpless, so who knows.

Stay in Cleveland, where there's a better roster than people give credit for. Or go to Portland, or Indiana, or San Antonio, where you have a legitimate shot to win if you're great, but it wouldn't be a joke if you did.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Why is no one mentioning LeBron to Toronto?

They're one experienced player away from a good team. And he could be GOAT in Canada.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Not to me. They literally would have beaten Warriors this year (therefore, champions) if one of 2 things happened: CP3 doesn't sit last 2 games and/or Rockets don't go 0/27 from 3.

Going to the Rockets and winning would do nothing for his legacy to someone like me. To greyhammer's point, whether or not the rest of the world sees it that way, I can't help the helpless, so who knows.

Stay in Cleveland, where there's a better roster than people give credit for. Or go to Portland, or Indiana, or San Antonio, where you have a legitimate shot to win if you're great, but it wouldn't be a joke if you did.

 

[Irish#1]

Why is no one mentioning LeBron to Toronto?

They're one experienced player away from a good team. And he could be GOAT in Canada.

Taxes?

 

[ulukinatme]

Not related to the GOAT discussion really, but there's a lot of haters out there:

[EDIT] Bah, embed didn't work:

With no father, no education, no training, and very few role models, they handed this young, dirt poor kid $420,000 per week, at the age of 18!

He married his high school sweetheart, was never arrested, never used drugs, never humiliated his spouse with side chick stories. No outside babies.

Never in the news with so much as a parking ticket. Excellent father. Heavily involved with his kid's activities. Greatest player on the PLANET in the game today!

14 years later. Same dude. Same maturity. Same chick. Same family. Reputation intact. Now earning close to $2 million per week. Has sent 1100+ kids to college fully paid for.

And you hate him...why?!?! &#55358;&#56631;&#55356;&#57342;*♂️&#55358;&#56631;&#55356;&#57342;*♂️&#55358;&#56631;&#55356;&#57342;*♂️

#LBJ #StriveForGreatness #Witness

 

[anarin]

I don't get this honestly, He is hated as a basketball player. So people are supposed to love the guy because he's a good family man?

(although there are tons of stories that he treats people like shit, but who knows whats real or fake)

 

[ACamp1900]

Such a wonderful team sport this basketball......

 

[NDohio]

As somebody that has been watching the NBA since the 70's, my advice is to just enjoy LBJ. In my younger days, I remember hating on certain players. I was a Dr. J guy and absolutely despised Dave Cowens and Bob McAdoo - after their games deteriorated or they retired I remember missing them - cause they were really good players from that era. I despised Isiah Thomas but man was he a great player. At this point I have learned to just appreciate greatness when it comes along.

There will never be another MJ and there will never be another LeBron. Just enjoy what you are getting to witness - it really is remarkable.

As for the LeBron to Houston discussion - I don't believe it will be seen as the same as his exodus to Miami because Houston hasn't won a championship. D Wade had already won a championship when LeBron joined him AND LeBron has now brought a championship to Cleveland. If you are hating on LBJ for going to Houston to try and take them over the top, then you are just hating...

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

As somebody that has been watching the NBA since the 70's, my advice is to just enjoy LBJ. In my younger days, I remember hating on certain players. I was a Dr. J guy and absolutely despised Dave Cowens and Bob McAdoo - after their games deteriorated or they retired I remember missing them - cause they were really good players from that era. I despised Isiah Thomas but man was he a great player. At this point I have learned to just appreciate greatness when it comes along.

There will never be another MJ and there will never be another LeBron. Just enjoy what you are getting to witness - it really is remarkable.

As for the LeBron to Houston discussion - I don't believe it will be seen as the same as his exodus to Miami because Houston hasn't won a championship. D Wade had already won a championship when LeBron joined him AND LeBron has now brought a championship to Cleveland. If you are hating on LBJ for going to Houston to try and take them over the top, then you are just hating...

If LBJ goes to Houston, he's certified two-ply charmin soft.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

[NBA] vBook: Cavaliers vs Celtics

As somebody that has been watching the NBA since the 70's, my advice is to just enjoy LBJ. In my younger days, I remember hating on certain players. I was a Dr. J guy and absolutely despised Dave Cowens and Bob McAdoo - after their games deteriorated or they retired I remember missing them - cause they were really good players from that era. I despised Isiah Thomas but man was he a great player. At this point I have learned to just appreciate greatness when it comes along.

There will never be another MJ and there will never be another LeBron. Just enjoy what you are getting to witness - it really is remarkable.

As for the LeBron to Houston discussion - I don't believe it will be seen as the same as his exodus to Miami because Houston hasn't won a championship. D Wade had already won a championship when LeBron joined him AND LeBron has now brought a championship to Cleveland. If you are hating on LBJ for going to Houston to try and take them over the top, then you are just hating...

Did you skip watching the 94 and 95 seasons when Houston won back-to-back titles?

 

[greyhammer90]

Did you skip watching the 94 and 95 seasons when Houston won back-to-back titles?

I think he meant this Houston team, as in any of the players/coaches on the roster. Not in franchise history lol.

 

[NorthDakota]

King James...man, this man is nuts.

 

[Henges24]

Witnessing classic NBA defense the last 2 minutes.

 

[NorthDakota]

I don't get this honestly, He is hated as a basketball player. So people are supposed to love the guy because he's a good family man?

(although there are tons of stories that he treats people like shit, but who knows whats real or fake)

They don't need to love the guy, but people hate him literally for a 30 minute(or was it an hour?) long TV event 8 years ago. As a basketball player, he's a likable enough dude. Shares the ball. Plays good defense. Etc.

Witnessing classic NBA defense the last 2 minutes.

Fantastic game. Enjoy a hard fought battle like this one.