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Whiskeyjack

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Unless you could convince 40 teams to join a league like that, nobody will care. It basically becomes like Ivy League football. My guess is we would be able to attract 10% to 20% (if that) of our typical recruiting targets to sign up for that kind of football.

Yes we are in a gray area. Yes we handicap ourselves. But I will gladly take what we are, than try to go down an avenue where ND football becomes almost meaningless.

I didn't say I liked the choice. But that's where we find ourselves, and I'd rather chart our own course than drift slowly into irrelevance. The Ivy League went the way it did for a reason. Now we've gotta decide whether we're going to find creative ways to close the gap on Clemson, 'Bama and OSU, or whether we can't ethically compete for national titles in football anymore.
 

NorthDakota

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I didn't say I liked the choice. But that's where we find ourselves, and I'd rather chart our own course than drift slowly into irrelevance. The Ivy League went the way it did for a reason. Now we've gotta decide whether we're going to find creative ways to close the gap on Clemson, 'Bama and OSU, or whether we can't ethically compete for national titles in football anymore.

If ND adds a Physical Education curriculum...that's probably good for 1 five star and 1.5 wins per season.
 

Wingman Ray

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I didn't say I liked the choice. But that's where we find ourselves, and I'd rather chart our own course than drift slowly into irrelevance. The Ivy League went the way it did for a reason. Now we've gotta decide whether we're going to find creative ways to close the gap on Clemson, 'Bama and OSU, or whether we can't ethically compete for national titles in football anymore.

I think the real chance for ND to compete for Nat Titles has passed. I understand 2012 but Bama showed us the difference between a football factory and a good football team that represents a Academic institution. Same with 2018 and Clemson. Stanford wont ever come remotely close to doing it either. It just isnt in the gameplan for schools that arent ready to invest their complete identities into the game of football.

Im not saying throw in the towel on ND football because ND can play some very good football. It just isnt a factory like Bama, OSU, Clemson and to a lesser extreme, LSU and GA.

And before people scream me down, yes I understand ND won the last two head to heads over GA and came really close twice vs GA. But close just means if you arent first, you are last in the big scheme of Nat Championship discussions.
 

BobbyMac

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I don't really disagree with you here. If ND still wants to compete for championships, we ought to play to win. Conversely, if our admin decides that the game is too dirty now, and that we can't compete with the current elites without compromising our ethical standards, then we ought to talk to Stanford and other like minded programs about forming a separate league. We're in this weird gray area right now where we're doing things very differently from the other blue bloods and insisting that we can still compete despite several significant self-inflicted handicaps. I'm not convinced that's accurate; but either way, I'd prefer for our admin to just decide and go all-in on it.

This needs it's own thread bit I agree with this and have a question:

Why is it less ethical to allow an NCAA minimum qualifier in vs a 1000/1100/1200 kid who are considered ND's athletic exceptions? None have "earned" or "qualified" as compared to the general student body?

If you allow them in, you push them to FT&T major or better yet, reintroduce the Holy Cross as a college within ND and allow them to be eligible.

It's no secret that the majority of yesterday's icons were not scholar athletes. These are the guys whose backs ND built their reputation and handsome endowment upon.

Why is getting back to your roots and being more inclusive to non-elite students a bad thing?

I think a major called Sport Society would wonderful with its goal to educate tomorrow's coaches, AD's, Director's of Boys & Girls Clubs, YMCA's, Youth Leauges, Park Dept's, Athletic Clubs, Sports Marketing, Social Media in Sports, hell... even Kinesiology because to beat the Weasel you must think like the Weasel.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... If Michigan, Cal, UNC and UVa can all live off the reputation's of their grad schools while taking the same athletes as Alcorn St, what damage would it do to ND's? I mean, has Duke been pushed out of the Top 50 for taking kids who go to school for 5 months after graduating from seedy charter schools in North Phoenix. I'd think the more times they can share a quality Catholic education with someone the better we as society would be. In any other endeavor, it seems to be the church's #1 mission. I'm not usually a WWJD referencer but I'm sure the student body would be drastically different if he was in charge of admissions.
 

zelezo vlk

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This needs it's own thread bit I agree with this and have a question:

Why is it less ethical to allow an NCAA minimum qualifier in vs a 1000/1100/1200 kid who are considered ND's athletic exceptions? None have "earned" or "qualified" as compared to the general student body?

If you allow them in, you push them to FT&T major or better yet, reintroduce the Holy Cross as a college within ND and allow them to be eligible.

It's no secret that the majority of yesterday's icons were not scholar athletes. These are the guys whose backs ND built their reputation and handsome endowment upon.

Why is getting back to your roots and being more inclusive to non-elite students a bad thing?

I think a major called Sport Society would wonderful with its goal to educate tomorrow's coaches, AD's, Director's of Boys & Girls Clubs, YMCA's, Youth Leauges, Park Dept's, Athletic Clubs, Sports Marketing, Social Media in Sports, hell... even Kinesiology because to beat the Weasel you must think like the Weasel.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... If Michigan, Cal, UNC and UVa can all live off the reputation's of their grad schools while taking the same athletes as Alcorn St, what damage would it do to ND's? I mean, has Duke been pushed out of the Top 50 for taking kids who go to school for 5 months after graduating from seedy charter schools in North Phoenix. I'd think the more times they can share a quality Catholic education with someone the better we as society would be. In any other endeavor, it seems to be the church's #1 mission. I'm not usually a WWJD referencer but I'm sure the student body would be drastically different if he was in charge of admissions.

I can tell you the endowment would look a lot different...
 

Whiskeyjack

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Why is it less ethical to allow an NCAA minimum qualifier in vs a 1000/1100/1200 kid who are considered ND's athletic exceptions? None have "earned" or "qualified" as compared to the general student body?

You've likely heard the argument before, but it's because ND sees itself as an elite university first, and still believes in the student-athlete ideal, particularly in the ordering of those two words. They don't want to admit anyone who cannot successfully complete a course of study available to the general student body. 1000-1200 SAT kids can do it with a lot of help from tutors. NCAA minimum qualifiers probably can't.

I think a major called Sport Society would wonderful with its goal to educate tomorrow's coaches, AD's, Director's of Boys & Girls Clubs, YMCA's, Youth Leauges, Park Dept's, Athletic Clubs, Sports Marketing, Social Media in Sports, hell... even Kinesiology because to beat the Weasel you must think like the Weasel.

The argument against this is similar. No fake majors for hiding athletes, because they're students first, and we're both exploiting them and debasing our own academic reputation if we allow them to "graduate" with a degree that no self-respecting member of the general student body would choose freely.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... If Michigan, Cal, UNC and UVa can all live off the reputation's of their grad schools while taking the same athletes as Alcorn St, what damage would it do to ND's? I mean, has Duke been pushed out of the Top 50 for taking kids who go to school for 5 months after graduating from seedy charter schools in North Phoenix. I'd think the more times they can share a quality Catholic education with someone the better we as society would be. In any other endeavor, it seems to be the church's #1 mission. I'm not usually a WWJD referencer but I'm sure the student body would be drastically different if he was in charge of admissions.

If we accept an NCAA minimum qualifier and park him in a fake major like kinesiology, can we really claim to be giving him a "quality Catholic education?"

We could go down the list of all the things OSU, 'Bama and Clemson are doing now to gain an advantage over us. For any single one of them, we could probably argue that adopting the tactic is justifiable in light of the rest of what we're doing right. But if we adopt them all, how are we any different? What would we have to give up in order to chase grid-iron glory again?

Could we close the gap by just copying them? Absolutely. Though I'm certain the administration, who's more concerned about our US News and World Report ranking, would not agree that the trade-off is worth it. But by the same token, it's not fair to the players or the fans to claim we're still aiming for national titles with all these self-imposed handicaps the other blue bloods aren't operating under. So we need to figure out what really matters for closing the gap (I'm convinced that some of the stuff fans focus on really doesn't) and then finding creative ways to do that while maintaining our integrity.

If they can't or won't do that, then it's time to join the Ivy League. That's what our admin is striving toward in most other areas anyway.
 

Circa

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No Michigan Hightlights I see...


<div style='position:relative; padding-bottom:calc(54.81% + 44px)'><iframe src='https://gfycat.com/ifr/RewardingCandidCockerspaniel' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' width='100%' height='100%' style='position:absolute;top:0;left:0;' allowfullscreen></iframe></div><p><a href="https://gfycat.com/discover/disappointed-gifs">from Disappointed GIFs</a> <a href="https://gfycat.com/rewardingcandidcockerspaniel-disappointed">via Gfycat</a></p>
 

SouthSideChiDomer

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If ND adds a Physical Education curriculum...that's probably good for 1 five star and 1.5 wins per season.

Looks like we are doing something in that direction. Muffett mentioned multiple times that she plans to get involved in the business school with a new sports management major we are creating. With the number of alums we have involved in sports on the coaching, admin, or front office sides, I could see it actually being a worthwhile major while also being a place a lot of athletes will end up.

This needs it's own thread bit I agree with this and have a question:

Why is it less ethical to allow an NCAA minimum qualifier in vs a 1000/1100/1200 kid who are considered ND's athletic exceptions? None have "earned" or "qualified" as compared to the general student body?

If you allow them in, you push them to FT&T major or better yet, reintroduce the Holy Cross as a college within ND and allow them to be eligible.


It's no secret that the majority of yesterday's icons were not scholar athletes. These are the guys whose backs ND built their reputation and handsome endowment upon.

Why is getting back to your roots and being more inclusive to non-elite students a bad thing?

I think a major called Sport Society would wonderful with its goal to educate tomorrow's coaches, AD's, Director's of Boys & Girls Clubs, YMCA's, Youth Leauges, Park Dept's, Athletic Clubs, Sports Marketing, Social Media in Sports, hell... even Kinesiology because to beat the Weasel you must think like the Weasel.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... If Michigan, Cal, UNC and UVa can all live off the reputation's of their grad schools while taking the same athletes as Alcorn St, what damage would it do to ND's? I mean, has Duke been pushed out of the Top 50 for taking kids who go to school for 5 months after graduating from seedy charter schools in North Phoenix. I'd think the more times they can share a quality Catholic education with someone the better we as society would be. In any other endeavor, it seems to be the church's #1 mission. I'm not usually a WWJD referencer but I'm sure the student body would be drastically different if he was in charge of admissions.

I wonder if the "not letting in qualifiers" is more because they can't see them actually succeeding at ND.

As for the Holy Cross idea, its honestly something I've been thinking about. There is a rule for a consortium operating under one team. Barnard athletes compete for Columbia because Barnard is technically a school within Columbia even though they are a separate school w/r/t administration, admissions, and even campuses. Also the Claremont colleges are combined into two different teams even though they are a bunch of different schools. Basically the only rule seems to be that the consortium agreement has to actually have an academic background which we would seem to have considering Holy Cross students can take classes at ND. There was also something about the school that the athlete goes to being the one to fund the scholarship, but that's something I'm sure we could take care of with some endowed scholarships if it helps us win.

We like to talk about how close the tri-campus community is, and I feel like this could be a way to strengthen that while also helping us win games, and also potentially helping Holy Cross because they don't seem to be in the best financial health. It doesn't even have to be fake majors or anything like that. We could still have the same standards of going to class and actually doing work. It could even be the case that some of the athletes could transfer over to ND if their academics actually are strong enough. So we can still recruit kids with that good ND degree, but give more wiggle room for guys who can't make it through admissions out of high school. Markese Stepp might have been a perfect example of where this could have come in handy. From all indications he was a hard worker, he just wasn't in position to make it through admissions. It could also open the door for senior transfers once the one time exception happens. Right now they wouldn't be able to transfer in unless they graduated, but they could potentially transfer in to Holy Cross for their final year and then go to ND for the grad degree if they do a fifth year.

And then there is the implications for basketball, where this could maybe allow us to finally take some one-and-dones. They could get the fun college experience of big time college football, ACC competition, and a fun and free flowing offense and now they also wouldn't really have to worry about classes.

I don't know how anyone else would feel about this consortium idea. Personally, I think it would feel a little like cheating, but at the same time I think I might like it. The band, cheerleaders, & managers (& maybe the student trainers?) are already from the different campuses and I knew plenty of cross-campus friendships that formed from these activities. I think it could make what we have even more unique in the landscape of college athletics while also being at least palatable to the administration and alumni.
 

GowerND11

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Holy Cross has been trying hard to up its reputation for a long time, but I just don't believe it is where it would need to be to have some type of consortium as others have mentioned. When I attended there (07-08) it was super easy IMO. I realized early one what I wanted to do and financially it made sense to transfer back to PA to a state school to become a teacher, but other than my own personal abilities in math (which I of course could have been tutored in and such) I believe getting the GPA to transfer into ND isn't all that hard at Holy Cross.

Now, I know others have mentioned about supporting Holy Cross to beginning some type of JUCO style (well NAIA since that's what they are) football program for possible players. But even that seems to compromise the beliefs of, not just Notre Dame, but the C.S.C. as well.
 

SeekNDestroy

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Raki Nelson graduated from Notre Dame. I don’t wanna hear about academics being such a big hurdle. Notre Dame is never going to recruit guys who can’t read or simply don’t care about getting an education.

5 star recruits pick factories because those schools prepare them to become high draft choices. Notre Dame isn’t doing that as well as Ohio St. and Alabama right now or USC under Carroll and Miami under Davis/Coker. Winning championships helps too.

I’m convinced that ND has reached it’s ceiling under Kelly. The only way to break through that ceiling would be to have a dynamic quarterback that can win with his arm and his legs ala Vince Young or Cam Newton.
 

Irish#1

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I wonder if we would be having this discussion if Shipley would have picked the good guys?
 

Sherm Sticky

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Raki Nelson graduated from Notre Dame. I don’t wanna hear about academics being such a big hurdle. Notre Dame is never going to recruit guys who can’t read or simply don’t care about getting an education.

5 star recruits pick factories because those schools prepare them to become high draft choices. Notre Dame isn’t doing that as well as Ohio St. and Alabama right now or USC under Carroll and Miami under Davis/Coker. Winning championships helps too.

I’m convinced that ND has reached it’s ceiling under Kelly. The only way to break through that ceiling would be to have a dynamic quarterback that can win with his arm and his legs ala Vince Young or Cam Newton.

What are you trying to say about Raki Nelson? He is illiterate?
 

Legacy

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I like the design of this year's Shirt more than most.

700-NDTS172-12020-ND-The-Shirt
 
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dad4aa

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Curious as well. I already sent in my money for my season tickets. There was nothing in there referencing anything related to the comments in that article. Hopefully those that don't get tickets will get their money back.
 

condoms SUCk

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Curious as well. I already sent in my money for my season tickets. There was nothing in there referencing anything related to the comments in that article. Hopefully those that don't get tickets will get their money back.

Maybe they “close off” the seats that haven’t been purchased yet and use that as the buffer?? I’m in section 1, row 10. So we have a short row to begin with, but if whole our row has already paid how would they space us out?
Glad I don’t have to make these decisions.
 

NDdomer2

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Curious as well. I already sent in my money for my season tickets. There was nothing in there referencing anything related to the comments in that article. Hopefully those that don't get tickets will get their money back.

Hopefully a pro-rated refund on the donation as well
 

yankeehater

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Not sure where this fits.

Looks like majority of California colleges will not open for the Fall Semester.

Did Cali just put an end to the college football and basketball seasons? The revenue from those sports fund most of the other sports on college campuses too. Will other schools in conferences band together to play non-California teams? This decisions, if they follow through, will blow up a lot of leagues with ties to California schools.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/12/us/california-universities-fall-online/index.html
 

BGIF

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3 Days Ago NCAA President said, No students, no sports.

3 Days Ago NCAA President said, No students, no sports.

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/ncaa-president-fall-sports-return

Published 3 days ago
NCAA president says no fall sports unless campuses are open to all students: 'It’s really that simple'
By Paulina Dedaj | Fox News

The NCAA has made it clear that unless college campuses are open to the entire student body in the fall, there are no plans to risk the health of student-athletes for the sake of sports.

President Mark Emmert plainly said Friday night that the NCAA will not play fall sports if the coronavirus pandemic forces schools to close campuses in the coming months.

“College athletes are college students, and you can’t have college sports if you don’t have college [campuses] open and having students on them,” Emmert said, according to the NCAA’s Twitter. “You don’t want to ever put student-athletes at greater risk than the rest of the student body.”

Conferences across the nation have been at odds over whether or not they will play fall sports if classes are online-only.

The Big East commissioner Val Ackerman has already decided that fall sports would not be played if students aren’t allowed on campus while Big 12 commissioner Bob Bowlsby has said that online classes would be “satisfactory” to being able to bring student-athletes back to campus for fall sports, according to the New York Post.

Emmert said Friday that conditions for returning to campus will not be as strict but student safety will be a must.

“That doesn’t mean [schools have] to be up and running in the full normal model, but you’ve got to treat the health and well-being of the athletes at least as much as the regular students,” Emmert said. “So, if a school doesn’t reopen, then they’re not going to be playing sports. It’s really that simple.”

It is conceivable that leagues would play with some members not participating.

While no deadlines have been set, Ackerman said during a press conference Friday that the presidents indicated a late June/early July deadline for fall sports, and possibly a Sept. 1 deadline for winter sports, when basketball is played.
 

arahop

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This needs it's own thread bit I agree with this and have a question:

"Why is it less ethical to allow an NCAA minimum qualifier in vs a 1000/1100/1200 kid who are considered ND's athletic exceptions? None have "earned" or "qualified" as compared to the general student body? "

If you allow them in, you push them to FT&T major or better yet, reintroduce the Holy Cross as a college within ND and allow them to be eligible.

It's no secret that the majority of yesterday's icons were not scholar athletes. These are the guys whose backs ND built their reputation and handsome endowment upon.

Why is getting back to your roots and being more inclusive to non-elite students a bad thing?

I think a major called Sport Society would wonderful with its goal to educate tomorrow's coaches, AD's, Director's of Boys & Girls Clubs, YMCA's, Youth Leauges, Park Dept's, Athletic Clubs, Sports Marketing, Social Media in Sports, hell... even Kinesiology because to beat the Weasel you must think like the Weasel.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... If Michigan, Cal, UNC and UVa can all live off the reputation's of their grad schools while taking the same athletes as Alcorn St, what damage would it do to ND's? I mean, has Duke been pushed out of the Top 50 for taking kids who go to school for 5 months after graduating from seedy charter schools in North Phoenix. I'd think the more times they can share a quality Catholic education with someone the better we as society would be. In any other endeavor, it seems to be the church's #1 mission. I'm not usually a WWJD referencer but I'm sure the student body would be drastically different if he was in charge of admissions.

Agreed 💯

I don't buy for a second that 95% of the football players would get accepted to ND on academic merit alone.
National Championships would create a greater flow of profits even if some of the blue hairs stopped donating.
Never understood 40-80 year old alummae thinking that their degree is devalued because of 85 scholarships spread out over 5 years. I think we can credit that inception to Monk Malloy.
 

dublinirish

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Joe Burrow, Justin Fields, Cam Newton, Johnny Manziel, Marcus Mariota the list goes on and on, none of these guys attended in person classes at their respective schools I don't know why its an issue for the NCAA now all of a sudden
 

RDU Irish

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This needs it's own thread bit I agree with this and have a question:

Why is it less ethical to allow an NCAA minimum qualifier in vs a 1000/1100/1200 kid who are considered ND's athletic exceptions? None have "earned" or "qualified" as compared to the general student body?

If you allow them in, you push them to FT&T major or better yet, reintroduce the Holy Cross as a college within ND and allow them to be eligible.

It's no secret that the majority of yesterday's icons were not scholar athletes. These are the guys whose backs ND built their reputation and handsome endowment upon.

Why is getting back to your roots and being more inclusive to non-elite students a bad thing?

I think a major called Sport Society would wonderful with its goal to educate tomorrow's coaches, AD's, Director's of Boys & Girls Clubs, YMCA's, Youth Leauges, Park Dept's, Athletic Clubs, Sports Marketing, Social Media in Sports, hell... even Kinesiology because to beat the Weasel you must think like the Weasel.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... If Michigan, Cal, UNC and UVa can all live off the reputation's of their grad schools while taking the same athletes as Alcorn St, what damage would it do to ND's? I mean, has Duke been pushed out of the Top 50 for taking kids who go to school for 5 months after graduating from seedy charter schools in North Phoenix. I'd think the more times they can share a quality Catholic education with someone the better we as society would be. In any other endeavor, it seems to be the church's #1 mission. I'm not usually a WWJD referencer but I'm sure the student body would be drastically different if he was in charge of admissions.

I think this is noble work but hard to justify on a $250k undergraduate education. Then again we have Art History as a major so how can we really knock it? Youth athletics can be a cesspool and so much focus has gone away from developing mind, body and soul to only being able to pick one and only if you are good enough or connected enough to run with the right crowds. Also worthwhile curriculum on managing your image and finances would apply to everyone in this day an age, not just QB1 and future NFL draft picks.

I think the FT&T program has done a great job capitalizing on the resources available from ND level productions to deep bench of successful broadcast alum.
 

Pops Freshenmeyer

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Joe Burrow, Justin Fields, Cam Newton, Johnny Manziel, Marcus Mariota the list goes on and on, none of these guys attended in person classes at their respective schools I don't know why its an issue for the NCAA now all of a sudden

Even if you think the NCAA just runs on craven avarice can you imagine the optics of a situation where it’s deemed unsafe for rank and file students to be on campus but the ones who make money for the school are gathered together for that purpose?
 
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