Counting Down the Irish

[BostonND]

This is probably my favorite series of the offseason.

Counting down the Irish: 10-6 | Inside the Irish

Here are the results so far:

2013 Irish Top 25
25. Max Redfield (S, Fr.)
24. Elijah Shumate (S, Soph.)
23. Jaylon Smith (OLB, Fr.)
22. Ishaq Williams (OLB, Jr.)
21. Greg Bryant (RB, Fr.)
20. Christian Lombard (RT, Sr.)
19. Amir Carlisle (RB, Jr.)
18. Carlo Calabrese (LB, Grad.)
17. Jarrett Grace (LB, Jr.)
16. Matthias Farley (S, Jr.)
15. George Atkinson III (RB, Jr.)
14. Dan Fox (LB, Grad.)
13. Sheldon Day (DE, Soph.)
12. Danny Spond (OLB, Sr.)
11. Tommy Rees (QB, Sr.)
10. Davaris Daniels
9. Troy Niklas
8. KeiVarae Russell
7. TJ Jones
6. Chris Watt

What do you guys think?
I think Atkinson hasn't shown us enough to earn his ranking. Same with Williams. I guess I'm more likely to give the benefit of the doubt to newcomers. I think Shumate is definitely the most underrated, from what I've read about his offseason.

 

[BostonND]

Here's mine, just for fun:

25. Amir Carlisle
24. James Onwualu
23. Nick Martin
22. Jaylon Smith
21. Kyle Brindza

20. Elijah Shumate
19. George Atkinson
18. Dan Fox
17. Jarrett Grace
16. Matthias Farley

15. Tommy Rees
14. Greg Bryant
13. Sheldon Day
12. Danny Spond
11. KeiVarae Russell

10. Christian Lombard
9. Troy Niklas
8. TJ Jones
7. Chris Watt
6. DaVaris Daniels

5. Prince Shembo
4. Bennett Jackson
3. Louis Nix
2. Stephon Tuitt
1. Zach Martin

I like how I got the exact same Top 5 as the panel. They haven't released it yet but that's going to be what it is. I also wonder where Golson would have ended up if he wasn't suspended.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Here's my issue with this exercise: they're trying to compile a pre-season list of the top-25 "impact" players for 2013, but some of the voters are just ranking based on current hype.

For instance, there are 22 unique positions at which one can "start"; toss in a few platoon positions (Darlo Calabrox, Shembo + Williams, RB, etc.) and you're already over 25. But two voters completely left Grace-- whom the staff has all but confirmed as our starting MILB-- off their ballots entirely, undoubtedly to include the likes of Jaylon Smith, Max Redfield, etc. And those are definitely exciting players, but are they going to have a bigger impact than Grace next season? Extremely unlikely.

Take our OL as well. Two of N. Martin, Hanratty, and Stanley are going to have a much bigger impact than several players on this list, but they've all been snubbed.

Not sure why this bothers me so much, but it does. If you want to make a top-25 based on hype, go for it, but be honest about what you're doing.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Bothers me too, Whiskey. Typical disregard for the BIGS who do the hard inglorious work and make everything happen [or not happen]. Putting Lombard at 20 and completely ignoring NMart is close to an outrage.

 

[STLDomer]

This is Sampson's list:

1. Louis Nix
2. Stephon Tuitt
3. Zack Martin
4. Bennett Jackson
5. Chris Watt
6. T.J. Jones
7. DaVaris Daniels
8. Prince Shembo
9. Amir Carlisle
10. Tommy Rees
11. Kyle Brindza
12. Dan Fox
13. Danny Spond
14. George Atkinson III
15. Troy Niklas
16. Sheldon Day
17. Jarrett Grace
18. Christian Lombard
19. Jaylon Smith
20. KeiVarae Russell
21. Matthias Farley
23. Alex Welch
23. Greg Bryant
24. Ishaq Williams
25. Elijah Shumate

 

[NDdomer2]

Didn't Tommy get left off two ballots? How does starting qb not fall in the impact players list of 25 (as whiskey said thats 22 starters plus 3).

It's a fun game they play but not sure how realistic it is being taken.

 

[BGIF]

Didn't Tommy get left off two ballots? How does starting qb not fall in the impact players list of 25 (as whiskey said thats 22 starters plus 3).

It's a fun game they play but not sure how realistic it is being taken.

Interesting how Jones, Daniels, and Niklas are supposed to be impact players if someone isn't having an impact season hitting all three of them.

 

[NDWorld247]

Here's my issue with this exercise: they're trying to compile a pre-season list of the top-25 "impact" players for 2013, but some of the voters are just ranking based on current hype.

Didn't Tommy get left off two ballots? How does starting qb not fall in the impact players list of 25 (as whiskey said thats 22 starters plus 3).

It's a fun game they play but not sure how realistic it is being taken.

Interesting how Jones, Daniels, and Niklas are supposed to be impact players if someone isn't having an impact season hitting all three of them.

Where are you guys getting "impact" as the criteria of Inside the Irish's TOP 25 players list? Read the introduction to the ranking and you'll find nothing about "impact" on the 2013 season as being part of the criteria.

The list is meant to rank the TOP 25 players based on their talent. I agree it's kind of a silly exercise, but it's the dog days of July and makes for an interesting read. If you're going to rip the list, at least rip it for the right reasons (X player is much better than Y player) than for a reason ("impact") that is not what the list is intended to provide.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The list is meant to rank the TOP 25 players based on their talent.

What does that even mean, though? As you said, it's a silly exercise.

The only way one can justify including Max Redfield and Jaylon Smith on a top-25 list but not Jarrett Grace is by current draft projection, and even that's a huge stretch. There aren't 25 guys on our team that have a better shot at the NFL than Grace.

Grace, N. Martin and Rees will be starters for NDFB this fall. The fact that multiple voters somehow justified completely leaving them off a top-25 list tells me all I need to know about their bonafides as "experts". I'd like to see the individual ballots so I can mock them appropriately.

 

[NDdomer2]

Where are you guys getting "impact" as the criteria of Inside the Irish's TOP 25 players list? Read the introduction to the ranking and you'll find nothing about "impact" on the 2013 season as being part of the criteria.

The list is meant to rank the TOP 25 players based on their talent. I agree it's kind of a silly exercise, but it's the dog days of July and makes for an interesting read. If you're going to rip the list, at least rip it for the right reasons (X player is much better than Y player) than for a reason ("impact") that is not what the list is intended to provide.

So then freshmen who don't participate in spring ball should not make the list as we don't have anything but high school film/camps to judge their talent on. We all know that doesn't equate to college talent all the time.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

This is Sampson's list:

1. Louis Nix
2. Stephon Tuitt
3. Zack Martin
4. Bennett Jackson
5. Chris Watt
6. T.J. Jones
7. DaVaris Daniels
8. Prince Shembo
9. Amir Carlisle
10. Tommy Rees
11. Kyle Brindza
12. Dan Fox
13. Danny Spond
14. George Atkinson III
15. Troy Niklas
16. Sheldon Day
17. Jarrett Grace
18. Christian Lombard
19. Jaylon Smith
20. KeiVarae Russell
21. Matthias Farley
23. Alex Welch
23. Greg Bryant
24. Ishaq Williams
25. Elijah Shumate

This is a reasonable list. He's got every likely starter on defense covered, all returning starters on offense, etc.

Since the OL isn't settled yet, omitting N. Martin, Hanratty and Stanley is at least defensible. But leaving off Grace and Rees? Ridiculous.

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

No Cam? :brokenhea

 

[NDWorld247]

What does that even mean, though? As you said, it's a silly exercise.

The only way one can justify including Max Redfield and Jaylon Smith on a top-25 list but not Jarrett Grace is by current draft projection, and even that's a huge stretch. There aren't 25 guys on our team that have a better shot at the NFL than Grace.

Grace, N. Martin and Rees will be starters for NDFB this fall. The fact that multiple voters somehow justified completely leaving them off a top-25 list tells me all I need to know about their bonafides as "experts". I'd like to see the individual ballots so I can mock them appropriately.

The way I've interpreted it is draft projection, but even that doesn't make a lot of sense given the placement of some true freshmen on the list. Grace was #17 on the list, but I agree with your point. They should have done a better job outlining the criteria or defining "top" players.

 

[NDPhilly]

No Amir Carlisle Sampson?

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

No Amir Carlisle Sampson?

#9

 

[irishog77]

This is Sampson's list:

1. Louis Nix
2. Stephon Tuitt
3. Zack Martin
4. Bennett Jackson
5. Chris Watt
6. T.J. Jones
7. DaVaris Daniels
8. Prince Shembo
9. Amir Carlisle
10. Tommy Rees
11. Kyle Brindza
12. Dan Fox
13. Danny Spond
14. George Atkinson III
15. Troy Niklas
16. Sheldon Day
17. Jarrett Grace
18. Christian Lombard
19. Jaylon Smith
20. KeiVarae Russell
21. Matthias Farley
23. Alex Welch
23. Greg Bryant
24. Ishaq Williams
25. Elijah Shumate

This is a reasonable list. He's got every likely starter on defense covered, all returning starters on offense, etc.

Since the OL isn't settled yet, omitting N. Martin, Hanratty and Stanley is at least defensible. But leaving off Grace and Rees? Ridiculous.

Agreed. Except for number 11. That one"s gross.

 

[NDWorld247]

This is a reasonable list. He's got every likely starter on defense covered, all returning starters on offense, etc.

Since the OL isn't settled yet, omitting N. Martin, Hanratty and Stanley is at least defensible. But leaving off Grace and Rees? Ridiculous.

The only difference between Sampson's list and Inside the Irish's list is Sampson has Alex Welch and Kyle Brindza included instead of Carlo Calabrese and Max Redfield. The other 23 players are the same on each list.

Grace is #17 and Rees is #11 on the Inside the Irish list.

Edit: I missed the fact you're talking about individual voters leaving Grace (two ballots) and Rees (one ballot) off their list and not necessarily the final list. I agree leaving both them off any ballot is ridiculous.

 

[BGIF]

Where are you guys getting "impact" as the criteria of Inside the Irish's TOP 25 players list? Read the introduction to the ranking and you'll find nothing about "impact" on the 2013 season as being part of the criteria.

The list is meant to rank the TOP 25 players based on their talent. I agree it's kind of a silly exercise, but it's the dog days of July and makes for an interesting read. If you're going to rip the list, at least rip it for the right reasons (X player is much better than Y player) than for a reason ("impact") that is not what the list is intended to provide.

The way I've interpreted it is draft projection, but even that doesn't make a lot of sense given the placement of some true freshmen on the list. Grace was #17 on the list, but I agree with your point. They should have done a better job outlining the criteria or defining "top" players.

I used the word impact responding to the post before mine. Where did I "rip" the article? Feel free to quote me where I did. The only ripping was yours of three other posters.

Interesting that in a follow up post you noted, "The way I've interpreted it is draft projection, but even that doesn't make a lot of sense given the placement of some true freshmen on the list. "

I read all on Keith's articles and could not discern what his and the others basis for ranking was. It's not stated.

 

[NDdomer2]

Keith stats in the opening article, found here: Counting down the Irish: 2013′s roster rankings | Inside the Irish

that they are ranking the "Top 25 Players".

This is left up to the grader to determine what he means by that.

Do you view the top 25 players to mean our top 25 draft prospects, top 25 players as far as contribution on team success, etc.

To contribute to team success or to be drafted I would imagine you would have to make some sort of impact, no?

 

[NDWorld247]

I used the word impact responding to the post before mine. Where did I "rip" the article? Feel free to quote me where I did. The only ripping was yours of three other posters.

Interesting that in a follow up post you noted, "The way I've interpreted it is draft projection, but even that doesn't make a lot of sense given the placement of some true freshmen on the list. "

I read all on Keith's articles and could not discern what his and the others basis for ranking was. It's not stated.

I wasn't ripping anyone. I'm sorry if it came across that way. I thought some people had made an assumption the list was an "impact players for 2013" list and I just wanted to point out that wasn't what the list was for. As you said, it's hard to discern what the criteria is other than the "top" players, but as Whiskey said, and I agreed, what does that even mean?

 

[ulukinatme]

Wheres Heggie?

 

[NDWorld247]

Keith stats in the opening article, found here: Counting down the Irish: 2013′s roster rankings | Inside the Irish

that they are ranking the "Top 25 Players".

This is left up to the grader to determine what he means by that.

Do you view the top 25 players to mean our top 25 draft prospects, top 25 players as far as contribution on team success, etc.

To contribute to team success or to be drafted I would imagine you would have to make some sort of impact, no?

Of course. Every player has an impact. I just don't think that was the point of the list. If it were, wouldn't Tommy Rees as the QB be ranked #1 or at least in the top 5? Looking at last year, if we were to rank players based on the biggest impact on the team it would probably go something like 1. Te'o, 2. Eifert, 3. Golson, 4. Rees. Maybe Golson and Rees aren't 3-4 but they are certainly up there as that's the nature of football (i.e. QBs make the biggest impact). Would you also consider them to be top 10 players? I probably wouldn't but again it comes back to interpretation since "top" is not defined very well. Judging by Rees' ranking it appears one writer interpreted it as "impact" (i.e. #3 ranking) and one interpreted it as "top" (i.e. no ranking).

I think there's a difference between Top and Impact and just wanted to point out the ITI list wasn't an "Impact" list. That's all.

If you guys want to get into a ranking based on Impact in 2013, let's go...here's my list.

1. Tommy Rees
2. Offensive Line (impossible to single out one guy, i.e. Martin, and say he will have the biggest impact and I fear OMM will have a conniption if I leave out the big uglies up front, so they're going in as a group)
3. Louis Nix
4. Stephon Tuitt
5. Davaris Daniels (playing the role of security blanket for Rees, ala Floyd in 2011 and Eifert in 2012, will be very impactful)

 

[NDdomer2]

i just think Tommy should make it regardless

 

[woolybug25]

Same with Williams. .

I think these lists are pretty silly too, but I'm mystified that you think Ishaq is ranked too high. He's ranked #22. There are only 22 starters on the team. You really believe that he will be less impactful than guys that don't even start? He was one of the top 22 players last season when he had to play a role that minimized his impact by design to free up Teo. When I think "impactful" I think "most productive". If that's the case, he was better than #22 last season.

I think if people really turn on the tape, you will see that Ishaq did a lot last season to allow others to make plays. His role is different now that Teo is gone, he will get more opportunities. I believe this will allow him to be one of the more impactful players on the defense this year.

 

[koonja]

Bothers me too, Whiskey. Typical disregard for the BIGS who do the hard inglorious work and make everything happen [or not happen]. Putting Lombard at 20 and completely ignoring NMart is close to an outrage.

Is Nick Martin even starting?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Is Nick Martin even starting?

Unless something drastic happens in fall camp, he's all but locked down starting C. At least that's my understanding.

 

[STLDomer]

Is Nick Martin even starting?

Unless something drastic happens in fall camp, he's all but locked down starting C. At least that's my understanding.

Some are even speculating in terms of straight football ability he will be better than Cave (obviously Cave brought some leadership Martin doesn't have). Going against Big Lou everyday is the best practice a Center can get

 

[woolybug25]

Unless something drastic happens in fall camp, he's all but locked down starting C. At least that's my understanding.

That's my understanding. I like it as well. Martin at center will be pretty damn good too. I don't think we will see a drop off at center and that's saying a lot considering the way Cave balled out.

 

[gkIrish]

Some are even speculating in terms of straight football ability he will be better than Cave (obviously Cave brought some leadership Martin doesn't have). Going against Big Lou everyday is the best practice a Center can get

Can't echo this thought enough. Practicing against the best is the easiest way to improve. Just have to keep up the intensity needed to match Lou against any and all foes.