College Basketball - FBI investigation

[Woneone]

Odds this case paves the way to some sort of payment structure within college athletics? Greater than revisiting one and done?

I just listened to the Eye on College Basketball podcast, and the NBC Sports podcast (two of my favorites), and I just don't get this line of thinking.

The thought-process of amateurism is the root cause of this just doesn't make any sense to me. I mean, it enables the possibility for it to occur, but by definition for a rule to be broken it has to exist in the first place. So, what is enabling the rule to be broken is the question that should be asked. It can, and should, be questioned, but people using it as a scapegoat in this case are, in my opinion, missing the point.

Why is the focus not on just following the rules? Along those lines, want to get the violent crime rate in Chicago to go down? Just remove rules against violent crimes is the solution I guess. These federal crimes of bribery and the like, want them to go away? Well I guess the solution is to remove the laws about them, and the rate of those crimes would drop to 0.

Removing the rules because people break them isn't a justifiable reason.

My question would be what percentage of kids are we talking about here? It sounds as though the majority of these cases, even through reporters talking about stories they've heard, are about the high-level guys. Yes, you'll always have "the best" players from the pool that will be attending schools, so there will still be the opportunity for corruption.

But people keep acting like amateurism is the root cause. I disagree. The lack of punishment and deterrent was, in my opinion, the biggest factor. I'm guessing we'll see a much more level playing field, at least in the short term (until the fear of the deterrent subsides).

 

[NorthDakota]

The Ponies were already on probation...but decided to continue brazenly cheating. The ncaa didn't have much else they could do them. These improprieties by louisville were part of the same culture and timeline as the other things they're currently under penalty for.

The ncaa has unofficially (and I think maybe even somewhat officially) since claimed that the death penalty was wrong. SMU has never recovered. The aim of sanctions isn't to destroy, but to change.

I think we would all like to see unc and baylor get the death penalty and feel it would be mostly justified, but the ncaa is really only as powerful as its member institutions allow it to be. So it's really only as powerful as schools like louisville, unc, and baylor allow it to be. Sadly, I see no death penalty coming for any of them.

There strong cases made, somewhat recently, for alabama and miami to get the death penalty (they were found to be cheating again while on probation), and talk of the death penalty never came up in the ncaa. Hell, in miami's case, the ncaa basically apologized to them.

Idk.... if you can't get people to clean up via sanctions... you hit them with a hammer. Death penalty is 100p needed here if this is as bad as it appears.

 

[Irish#1]

The Ponies were already on probation...but decided to continue brazenly cheating. The ncaa didn't have much else they could do them. These improprieties by louisville were part of the same culture and timeline as the other things they're currently under penalty for.

The ncaa has unofficially (and I think maybe even somewhat officially) since claimed that the death penalty was wrong. SMU has never recovered. The aim of sanctions isn't to destroy, but to change.

I think we would all like to see unc and baylor get the death penalty and feel it would be mostly justified, but the ncaa is really only as powerful as its member institutions allow it to be. So it's really only as powerful as schools like louisville, unc, and baylor allow it to be. Sadly, I see no death penalty coming for any of them.

There strong cases made, somewhat recently, for alabama and miami to get the death penalty (they were found to be cheating again while on probation), and talk of the death penalty never came up in the ncaa. Hell, in miami's case, the ncaa basically apologized to them.

It was a part, but as important SMU took a long look in the mirror and decided they would not make athletics a priority anymore and stopped putting much money into programs.

And now we know why some schools continue to get top kids year in and year out.

 

[irishog77]

It was a part, but as important SMU took a long look in the mirror and decided they would not make athletics a priority anymore and stopped putting much money into programs.

Hmmm...while true, I'd argue that was maybe 10% of it. I think that's the retrospective belief, even by them. Isn't their basketball team currently under ncaa sanctions for cheating, after they hired a big time basketball coach known for cheating?

 

[NDdomer2]

They. All. Cheat. They always have. Whether it's a conspiracy of the school, the staff, the AAU coaches, the agents, the shoe companies, the family, the financial advisers, the alumni & the fans or just one of them acting like a lone wolf, they all cheat. Too many hands out, to easy to get a quick return.

I've even heard of the recruiting analysts paying for exclusives on the hoops side.

this was why I figured football could have something similar, you don't think there's more cash getting thrown around for football than bball? I understand it may not be a shoe company but it's someone's money. I can't imagine it's all hand to hand cash exchanges either.

Then I read how they were listen to phone calls. Those have to be occurring with football recruits.

All in all though this is just going to make the bagmen more sophisticated.

 

[STLDomer]

The one and done is part of the problem and eliminating it will help the issue (not eliminate)

You got kids who don’t give fuck about the school they go to. If I have to sit through school for a year. Might as well get paid doing it and secure my NBA and sponsorship future.

Let kids risk their career at 18. Let them get paid in Europe. If that’s what they want to do.

 

[STLDomer]

The one and done is part of the problem and eliminating it will help the issue (not eliminate)

You got kids who don’t give fuck about the school they go to. If I have to sit through school for a year. Might as well get paid doing it and secure my NBA and sponsorship future.

Let kids risk their career at 18. Let them get paid in Europe. If that’s what they want to do.

I should say 17. Since apparently finishing high school in 3 years is easy for some of them nowadays.

 

[NorthDakota]

The one and done is part of the problem and eliminating it will help the issue (not eliminate)

You got kids who don’t give fuck about the school they go to. If I have to sit through school for a year. Might as well get paid doing it and secure my NBA and sponsorship future.

Let kids risk their career at 18. Let them get paid in Europe. If that’s what they want to do.

I have no idea why more of them haven't went to Europe for a year or two. If you are not interested in a degree then why not get paid son?

 

[ACamp1900]

This clearly has to be more wide spread that just these select schools right?

 

[ND NYC]

I think fit was fran frischilla who was saying how the ncaa, not having any investigative ability ASKED the fbi to look into this years ago...so perhaps the "seeds" of these investigations were planted back then--by the NCAA.

 

[Irish#1]

Hmmm...while true, I'd argue that was maybe 10% of it. I think that's the retrospective belief, even by them. Isn't their basketball team currently under ncaa sanctions for cheating, after they hired a big time basketball coach known for cheating?

They could be, but you're comparing different eras. Those that replaced the crooked board members probably aren't around anymore. It's been years, but I'm pretty sure when SMU came off probation, SMU issued a statement that they would not be committing many resources to fielding a competitive team.

SMU upgraded facilities in 2012 and are upgrading their stadium. They've been fielding competitive teams in the last 5 years or so. Any coincidence?

 

[Irish#1]

This clearly has to be more wide spread that just these select schools right?

Oh yea. This thing is just getting started IMO.

 

[ND NYC]

If the NCAA did nothing to put real and lasting pain on the Penn St program--why would we think anything significant will come to any of the schools caught up in this latest scandal?

there is NOTHING a coach/player/booster/bad actor can really do to take down an NCAA sports program.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I just listened to the Eye on College Basketball podcast, and the NBC Sports podcast (two of my favorites), and I just don't get this line of thinking.

The thought-process of amateurism is the root cause of this just doesn't make any sense to me. I mean, it enables the possibility for it to occur, but by definition for a rule to be broken it has to exist in the first place. So, what is enabling the rule to be broken is the question that should be asked. It can, and should, be questioned, but people using it as a scapegoat in this case are, in my opinion, missing the point.

Why is the focus not on just following the rules? Along those lines, want to get the violent crime rate in Chicago to go down? Just remove rules against violent crimes is the solution I guess. These federal crimes of bribery and the like, want them to go away? Well I guess the solution is to remove the laws about them, and the rate of those crimes would drop to 0.

Removing the rules because people break them isn't a justifiable reason.

My question would be what percentage of kids are we talking about here? It sounds as though the majority of these cases, even through reporters talking about stories they've heard, are about the high-level guys. Yes, you'll always have "the best" players from the pool that will be attending schools, so there will still be the opportunity for corruption.

But people keep acting like amateurism is the root cause. I disagree. The lack of punishment and deterrent was, in my opinion, the biggest factor. I'm guessing we'll see a much more level playing field, at least in the short term (until the fear of the deterrent subsides).

The problem is the money around it and the imbalance it creates.

You have coaches, like Dixon at TCU, making millions of dollars at schools that has produced 4 NCAA tourney teams since the Beatles were formed. TV rights for the Men's BB tournament will payout over $1B annually to the NCAA in 2025. You have the Big Ten conference generating over $500m in annual revenue per year, which allows a school like Ohio State to generate over $170m in annual revenue. Texas A&M got nearly $200m for the last reported year.

Now go compare that to a school like East Carolina, not P5 but still a "major" player, generates less than 25% the revenue that A&M does, if they are lucky.

Now look at what UA, Nike, etc pay schools like ND, Michigan, etc to wear their products.

Billions of dollars are on the table, which provides a HUGE incentive for people to cheat, and there is little teeth to the enforcement organization. The only way to get a more even playing field, is to try and minimize the incentive.

Sure, there will always be greed and those who will want the "extra" amount, but pretending like this problem is not pervasive or that we can return to amateurism of the 1950's is laughable.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Oh yea. This thing is just getting started IMO.

Raid Agent #1 and take computer

Raid suspicious Financial Advisors mentioned on Agent 1's computer.

Raid additional suspicious agents mentioned on suspicious financial advisors computers

Rinse and repeat. This investigation could last a long time.

 

[NDdomer2]

I think fit was fran frischilla who was saying how the ncaa, not having any investigative ability ASKED the fbi to look into this years ago...so perhaps the "seeds" of these investigations were planted back then--by the NCAA.

and if i was the NCAA i would want people to have the perception that I was included in this.

 

[NDgradstudent]

Well done BC and Syracuse for pushing Louisville over UConn (due to jealously and spite).

 

[RDU Irish]

Of all the coaches out there - Jimmy Boeheim shouldn't be too far from the top of the list for pay-for-play suspects. I mean we think ND has to fight the weather negative recruiting?

 

[GowerND11]

If the NCAA did nothing to put real and lasting pain on the Penn St program--why would we think anything significant will come to any of the schools caught up in this latest scandal?

there is NOTHING a coach/player/booster/bad actor can really do to take down an NCAA sports program.

While what was going on in State College was really REALLY bad (and much worse morally, ethically, etc), I have to say, in terms of the NCAA, this stuff actually fits Death Penalty type sanctions much more when you look at precedent.

 

[NDohio]

Knicks F Michael Beasley on how corrupt college basketball is. "Man, you guys are just catching on."

Ha!

 

[T Town Tommy]

This clearly has to be more wide spread that just these select schools right?

Wasn't it Jerry T. at UNLV that once said nine out of ten CBB schools cheat and the tenth school is in last place?

I would think that if the FBI had anything on Nike or UA they would have put it out there yesterday as well. My guess is that they are continuing to search and like they said yesterday they have more knowledge of where and how to look. The raid yesterday in NYC may be just the ticket to that information.

 

[NDdomer2]

I thought ASM was linked to the adidas kids. But 3 of the assistants are at Nike schools so how is Nike not a part of this?

 

[Ndaccountant]

Wasn't it Jerry T. at UNLV that once said nine out of ten CBB schools cheat and the tenth school is in last place?

I would think that if the FBI had anything on Nike or UA they would have put it out there yesterday as well. My guess is that they are continuing to search and like they said yesterday they have more knowledge of where and how to look. The raid yesterday in NYC may be just the ticket to that information.

They may still be searching for evidence of Federal crimes, but that doesn't mean they don't have stuff that would be problematic from a NCAA perspective. Case in point, UL is toast, but no coach was arrested.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I thought ASM was linked to the adidas kids. But 3 of the assistants are at Nike schools so how is Nike not a part of this?

The other players arrested (agent, financial adviser, etc) were bribing those coaches.

 

[RDU Irish]

Some coaches pay their assistants - get a $160M shoe deal, pay your coaches and allow the shoe company to pay the agents with no direct school involvement maybe? Lower paid assistants may be more susceptible to payola.

 

[IrishLion]

this was why I figured football could have something similar, you don't think there's more cash getting thrown around for football than bball? I understand it may not be a shoe company but it's someone's money. I can't imagine it's all hand to hand cash exchanges either.

Then I read how they were listen to phone calls. Those have to be occurring with football recruits.

All in all though this is just going to make the bagmen more sophisticated.

I would think the opposite, actually. Apparel companies getting involved has muddied the waters and left too many loose lips and paper trails, hence the spot the bball schools are in now.

The bagmen (like they do in football) are simply going to stick to the tried and true method of $$$ in the handshake now.

There's no paper trail when you're talking about things in-person, with cash, rather than dealing with 3rd parties via cellphone and wire transfers.

 

[irishog77]

They could be, but you're comparing different eras. Those that replaced the crooked board members probably aren't around anymore. It's been years, but I'm pretty sure when SMU came off probation, SMU issued a statement that they would not be committing many resources to fielding a competitive team.

SMU upgraded facilities in 2012 and are upgrading their stadium. They've been fielding competitive teams in the last 5 years or so. Any coincidence?

Doubtful. And that's my point. Of course smu is going to say good things, everybody does when they've been busted. And yes, smu did reign things in a bit after they were caught rampantly cheating, while already being sanctioned for cheating.

Smu being competitive, while also being under investigation/penalty of the ncaa, is not coincidental either. That's my point.

 

[dwshade]

Well done BC and Syracuse for pushing Louisville over UConn (due to jealously and spite).

And you actually think UConn was a clean program under Calhoun? LOL

 

[T Town Tommy]

I would think the opposite, actually. Apparel companies getting involved has muddied the waters and left too many loose lips and paper trails, hence the spot the bball schools are in now.

The bagmen (like they do in football) are simply going to stick to the tried and true method of $$$ in the handshake now.

There's no paper trail when you're talking about things in-person, with cash, rather than dealing with 3rd parties via cellphone and wire transfers.

Most bagmen aren't associated with shoe companies, agents, etc. Quite the opposite. They are low key, don't want any attention drawn their way, and spend their time in the dark shadows. No publicity, no paper trails, no huge sums of money changing hands. In fact, most "transactions" are for small sums of money for obvious reasons. Furthermore, a lot of times cash isn't involved. It could be something as simple as mom getting a washer and dryer or the player getting a new video console. No paper, no cash, no proof.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Many, many years ago an SEC President (I believe that he was from Georgia) was asked about a stink arising about conference football programs --- including "our" TTT's favorite semi-pro team. The stink was about the growing awareness that the schools were ignoring academics and anything else that might get in the way of recruiting and "product" on the field.

He was asked about what (Georgia) was going to do about several specific issues brought up. He said: Nothing. That would be like unilateral disarmament. .....That convinced me that EVERYBODY knew (generally) what was going on a very long time ago..... and there have been many years to "get it right" smoothing the pay-off and academics-avoiding systems into stealth mode.