Boy Taken By Gator at Walt Disney World

IrishLax

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Idk. I see it differently. This happened on private property so the resort has to have at least some responsibility for this. If a random kid walks into my backyard, falls into my pool and drowns then the parents can sue me. The resort can't just hide behind a "No Swimming Allowed" sign.

Yup, learned about this kind of thing a lot in engineering ethics class. For a home owner not to have liability they basically need an opaque fence around the property and clearly visible "no swimming/diving" signs. Otherwise, attractive nuisance rules apply.
 

wizards8507

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Yup, learned about this kind of thing a lot in engineering ethics class. For a home owner not to have liability they basically need an opaque fence around the property and clearly visible "no swimming/diving" signs. Otherwise, attractive nuisance rules apply.
The hazard wasn't the lagoon, the hazard was the alligator.
 

gkIrish

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It will never go to trial. Disney will pay them a few million dollars in a settlement and you won't hear about it again after that.
 

ND NYC

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This is absurd. Disney can't control wild animals or people misbehaving around nature. If I go camping and get mauled by a black bear, I can't sue the state of Connecticut. If I go to the Grand Canyon and fall in, I can't sue the National Park Service. If I go in the ocean and get eaten by a shark, I can't sue the Coast Guard.

I don't think a $400 a night Disney RESORT is considered "NATURE" to the average person.

if the signs say "no swimming-alligators present" then I'm with you, but to NOT mention they could/might be in that water is a HUGE problem for them.
 

PANDFAN

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Was the boy found inside the alligator? I'm asking because there is a lady I work with that is trying to convince me that the alligator is just a cover up by the parents. She thinks the boy drowned while the parents weren't watching him and they used an alligator as an excuse. She read that the boy's body was found in the water and he didn't have any scratches on him. I think she's crazy.

alligators often will take their prey that they catch and take it down to deeper water to begin rotting away before going back to eating it...so this is why he was most likely not eaten yet
 

wizards8507

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I don't think a $400 a night Disney RESORT is considered "NATURE" to the average person.
They weren't inside a freaking hotel room, they were on the shore of a lake. A lake is still nature even if there's a hotel built next to it. This is no different than if someone ignores the signs that say "trail closed" at a ski resort and they injure themselves on the mountain. The mountain is still "nature" even if there's a ski lodge on it.

if the signs say "no swimming-alligators present" then I'm with you, but to NOT mention they could/might be in that water is a HUGE problem for them.
Serious question. What would you say if someone got Zika from a mosquito bite while at Disney? Would you be shouting about how "Disney isn't nature" and there were no warning signs that said "DANGER: MOSQUITOES!"?
 

IrishLax

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The hazard wasn't the lagoon, the hazard was the alligator.

Which was on their property, in the lagoon. Same concept as a gator in a pool at a house... if the home owner is aware that gators live in or are frequently found in their pool then they (legally) have an obligation to provide notice/warning of that fact.

Hell, there are even some scenarios where they'd be liable even if they DIDN'T know the gator was there.., especially if they have any sort of "gator prevention plan" on the books. There's tons of legal precedence on this.
 

wizards8507

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Which was on their property, in the lagoon. Same concept as a gator in a pool at a house... if the home owner is aware that gators live in or are frequently found in their pool then they (legally) have an obligation to provide notice/warning of that fact.

Hell, there are even some scenarios where they'd be liable even if they DIDN'T know the gator was there.., especially if they have any sort of "gator prevention plan" on the books. There's tons of legal precedence on this.
As gk pointed out, this will never go to trial, but I still think the details of this case are different than your examples. This wasn't an alligator in a pool or an alligator in some place where alligators don't belong. Alligators live in lagoons, swamps, lakes, and other large bodies of water. The fact that Disney removes them from property when they're found is not some kind of bare minimum safety standard, that's them going above and beyond their due care.

When you look at the actuarial figures behind alligator attacks and fatalities in the state of Florida, the mathematical risk of something like this is zero for all intents and purposes. This has never happened at Disney before and alligators aren't known to be aggressive. That goes to the standard of liability that the risk must be reasonably known or reasonably knowable. Even if Disney knew that there were alligators on property (of course they did), the mathematical risk of one of those alligators killing a guest is zero, which shows how much of a freak incident this was. It's hard for people who have never lived in Florida to wrap their heads around this, but seeing an alligator is like seeing a squirrel. They're 100% normal and generally risk-free if unprovoked.
 
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IrishLax

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As gk pointed out, this will never go to trial, but I still think the details of this case are different than your examples. This wasn't an alligator in a pool or an alligator in some place where alligators don't belong. Alligators live in lagoons, swamps, lakes, and other large bodies of water. The fact that Disney removes them from property when they're found is not some kind of bare minimum safety standard, that's them going above and beyond their due care.

I'm not going to type a novel on my phone but to the first bolder -- yes, duh? My post was explaining both sides of the coin (it being either typical or atypical that the alligator lives there). To second, having such a plan would acknowledge that they are a danger or nuisance, and then failure to remove said alligator would be spun as a deficiency in the plan. There is basically a zero percent chance with how the facts have been presented that Disney does not have some legal exposure. That's all I'm trying to say, and I'm 100% correct and any lawyer will back me up on that.
 

dad4aa

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I don't know the legal ramifications but we have been to Disney World probably 40 times. While I have never seen an alligator at the resorts...I never let my kids go near the lagoon. There are hundreds of pools the kids can go in. In regards to posting signs, I have played golf at all of the courses in and around Disney and have seen alligators on the course, on the greens and in the water hazards. Most of the time there are no warning signs about gators being nearby...but everyone knows not to go search for a lost ball. You drop and hit another one. Resort or not, you don't let a toddler wade in a lagoon in Florida. Very sad tragedy.
 

dad4aa

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I'm not going to type a novel on my phone but to the first bolder -- yes, duh? My post was explaining both sides of the coin (it being either typical or atypical that the alligator lives there). To second, having such a plan would acknowledge that they are a danger or nuisance, and then failure to remove said alligator would be spun as a deficiency in the plan. There is basically a zero percent chance with how the facts have been presented that Disney does not have some legal exposure. That's all I'm trying to say, and I'm 100% correct and any lawyer will back me up on that.

While I agree 100% with this, I think this is more of a state of our litigious society than it is of right or wrong. Disney could post thousands of signs and remove thousands of alligators...but if just one gets through, a person sues. It is much better for Disney to pay and go away then to fight and be looked at as having no compassion for a family losing their 2 year-old child. Unfortunately, in today's world, no one is responsible for their own actions...someone else is ALWAYS to blame.
 

calvegas04

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Disney is going to settle with them to save face, but no amount of money in the world will replace what the family is going to be missing.
 

RDU Irish

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Legality can be thrown out the window. Pretty much any jury is going to soak Disney for a pretty penny because they are a multi-billion dollar enterprise and there is a catastrophic loss. This will settle out of court for a large sum - the quicker it goes away the better, for both parties. I wouldn't want to relive my kid's death for years on end - $10M or so and I'm moving on quickly - idiot lawyers pushing for 10x that can get bent.
 

Emcee77

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I'm not going to type a novel on my phone but to the first bolder -- yes, duh? My post was explaining both sides of the coin (it being either typical or atypical that the alligator lives there). To second, having such a plan would acknowledge that they are a danger or nuisance, and then failure to remove said alligator would be spun as a deficiency in the plan. There is basically a zero percent chance with how the facts have been presented that Disney does not have some legal exposure. That's all I'm trying to say, and I'm 100% correct and any lawyer will back me up on that.

Yes, I think you are probably right, although I have to say I don't know all the facts and circumstances.

From the pictures I've seen, there was a beach there, correct? That's a key fact.

If Disney knew that there were alligators in that lake, and they knew that people were playing on the beach, and they knew that alligators are dangerous animals***, then I'd think it would be reasonable to do more to prevent people from swimming, risking an alligator attack, than just to put up a no-swimming sign, because it's foreseeable that people who don't know the danger will ignore the sign, thinking it's a pointless restriction on harmless fun to anyone who is a strong, unintoxicated swimmer. A "no swimming-Alligators!" sign, on the other hand, would have warned them of the danger, which is prudent based in part on the attractive nuisance principles Lax described (that's black-letter law that everyone learns in 1L, so I assume that's the law in Florida, but I don't know for certain how the law works there).

It certainly seems to me that there is at least a non-frivolous argument that Disney should have foreseen the possibility that someone playing on the beach might decide to wade into the water or swim near the shore and thereby disturb an alligator, unintentionally provoking an attack, and taken reasonable measures to prevent that from happening. I don't think Disney was required to put up a fence or anything, but I think it was probably required to do more than just put up a "no swimming" sign; there should have been some warning of alligators, a danger of which many people from places like Nebraska would have no awareness.

Just my totally off-the-cuff, stream-of-consciousness opinion.

Btw, this is from the perspective of what I think it would have been prudent for Disney to do in advance of this tragedy; not saying I know how any lawsuit the family might file will turn out or anything like that.

***This may be a questionable assumption, if wiz is correct that alligators are not dangerous animals. He might be right, and I have no doubt that he is right that alligator attacks are very rare, but I am having trouble crediting the assertion that there was a virtually zero percent chance of an alligator attack.

EDIT: Moments after I finished typing this post I happened upon this:

Orlando alligator: Who is liable for toddler's death? - BBC News

Sounds like the case against Disney is fairly weak, in part because principles of attractive nuisance and premises liability don't apply to wild animal attacks. It will come down to that failure-to-warn problem, which is a tough row to hoe because alligator attacks are so rare.

Of course it's all academic anyway; as the article points out and numerous posters have said, Disney will certainly settle to avoid a PR nightmare.
 
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NDRock

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They weren't inside a freaking hotel room, they were on the shore of a lake. A lake is still nature even if there's a hotel built next to it. This is no different than if someone ignores the signs that say "trail closed" at a ski resort and they injure themselves on the mountain. The mountain is still "nature" even if there's a ski lodge on it.


Serious question. What would you say if someone got Zika from a mosquito bite while at Disney? Would you be shouting about how "Disney isn't nature" and there were no warning signs that said "DANGER: MOSQUITOES!"?

I can't stand our litigious society but that part of the Disney property does not scream "nature" to me. Pretty sure they were on a man-made beach, next to a man-made lake at their hotel. Either way, Disney will pay and probably change their signage as well.
 

wizards8507

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I can't stand our litigious society but that part of the Disney property does not scream "nature" to me. Pretty sure they were on a man-made beach, next to a man-made lake at their hotel.
"Man made" keeps getting thrown around and that's really a bit of a stretch. It was "man made" in the 1960s by excavating muck and mud out of a swamp and it's directly connected to a natural lake. People are talking about it like it's a big ass swimming pool. It's natural for all intents and purposes.

Either way, Disney will pay and probably change their signage as well.
Right.
 

kmoose

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I don't think Disney was required to put up a fence or anything, but I think it was probably required to do more than just put up a "no swimming" sign; there should have been some warning of alligators, a danger of which many people from places like Nebraska would have no awareness.

I don't take issue with anything else you wrote, but the bolded I have a real problem with. That's akin to saying that people from Detroit who visit Kansas would have no awareness of the dangers of tornadoes...
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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Disney is going to settle with them to save face, but no amount of money in the world will replace what the family is going to be missing.

F*ck the money, I'd be inconsolable if my son was killed by a wild animal (or anything that I couldn't stop). WTF does money do for a grieving family? I feel sick for them.
 

calvegas04

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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZONXg4QRSDA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

Irish#1

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There will certainly be a lawsuit coming. Even though Disney has the resources to drag this out forever, I think it will get settled out of court for a kings ransom.

I remember reading about a case where a guy had an aggressive dog and was kept on the property with a fence. Even posted signs to warn others. The dog attacked someone (think it was a delivery guy) and the owner lost the case even though the dog was behind a fence and had not left the property. The judge ruled against the owner. He reasoned the guy knew he had an aggressive dog and shouldn't have kept him knowing it might cause harm.
 

wizards8507

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I remember reading about a case where a guy had an aggressive dog and was kept on the property with a fence. Even posted signs to warn others. The dog attacked someone (think it was a delivery guy) and the owner lost the case even though the dog was behind a fence and had not left the property. The judge ruled against the owner. He reasoned the guy knew he had an aggressive dog and shouldn't have kept him knowing it might cause harm.
In your example, the dog was the property owner's pet. This wasn't DISNEY'S alligator, it was a wild animal. The burden placed on hotel owners is to protect their guests from "unreasonable risk of physical harm." A wild alligator in a lagoon in Florida is the very definition of reasonable risk.

There will certainly be a lawsuit coming. Even though Disney has the resources to drag this out forever, I think it will get settled out of court for a kings ransom.
Absolutely. You wouldn't believe the amount of frivolous lawsuits that Disney settles for expediency and PR purposes. The fact that this is a legitimate claim means they'll absolutely settle for a fair amount.
 
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