2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


  • Total voters
    183

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
You want to get utilitarian about this? Let's get utilitarian.

A poor person in Dongguan or Aguascalientes is a hell of a lot worse off than a poor person in Toledo or Buffalo.

Materially? Yes. Fortunately man doesn't live on bread alone.

I could very easily construct an argument wherein it is immoral not to ship jobs overseas. The workers willing to labor for the lowest wages are, by definition, the workers most in need of employment. Thus, companies are performing a moral good when they hire them. This nationalist bullshit that somehow American workers are morally entitled to jobs that are being shipped overseas lies somewhere on the spectrum of ignorance, xenophobia, and racism.

Surely you understand that utilitarianism can be used to justify all sorts of morally atrocious outcomes. The duties of care you owe to your fellow man fall into a hierarchy. The needs of your wife and children are more pressing than those of your neighbors. Your neighbors needs are more pressing than those who live in the next state. And the needs of your fellow countrymen are more pressing than those who live overseas. This is a strikingly unpatriotic argument from you. Typically liberal, though.

Pope Francis is ignorant, frankly. His infallibility doesn't extend to areas about which he had no expertise nor authority. I'm sick of this bullshit where Francis can say "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God, so 2 + 2 = walrus" and Catholics line up to defend him. His moral authority does not give him carte blanche so say whatever he wants about whatever he wants without question.

Francis is a Catholic, whereas you are (apparently) an ideologue. He doesn't believe in Market Uber Alles. He thinks the market ought to serve communities, and not visa versa. In your eyes, that makes him a dangerous apostate from 18th century economic dogma?
 
Last edited:

TDHeysus

FLOOR(RAND()*(N-D+1))+D;
Messages
3,315
Reaction score
355
You want to get utilitarian about this? Let's get utilitarian.

A poor person in Dongguan or Aguascalientes is a hell of a lot worse off than a poor person in Toledo or Buffalo. I could very easily construct an argument wherein it is immoral not to ship jobs overseas. The workers willing to labor for the lowest wages are, by definition, the workers most in need of employment. Thus, companies are performing a moral good when they hire them. This nationalist bullshit that somehow American workers are morally entitled to jobs that are being shipped overseas lies somewhere on the spectrum of ignorance, xenophobia, and racism.

I'm asking for it, admittedly I am. I did read this somewhat out of context because I havent been reading this thread at all really; because a political thread on a football site is only asking for trouble. However, the statement above I find to be absolutely preposterous. Did you back yourself into a corner and just won't give up, or do you actually believe this nonsense?
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
Materially? Yes. Fortunately man doesn't live on bread alone.
This is where you tell me that a good society is one in which it is easy for people to be good and do good, right? I haven't responded to that statement yet, but I believe you have cause and effect all backwards. A good society does not make good citizens. Rather, good citizens make good societies. I acknowledge that there's a bit of a feedback loop but the origin of goodness the individual. The individual is the locus of morality and agency because the individual is the entity created in the image and likeness of God and the individual, not the society, has a soul.

Surely you understand that utilitarianism can be used to justify all sorts of morally atrocious outcomes.
I wasn't endorsing it as a universal ethical framework, but Legacy opened the door so I walked through.

The duties of care you owe to your fellow man fall into a hierarchy. The needs of your wife and children are more pressing than those of your neighbors. Your neighbors needs are more pressing than those who live in the next state. And the needs of your fellow countrymen are more pressing than those who live overseas. This is a strikingly unpatriotic argument from you. Typically liberal, though.
While true, the hierarchy is not absolute. If you could prevent a murder in Shanghai, that would clearly be morally superior to lending your brother five dollars for lunch. Employing a worker in the developing world is saving them from a fate far worse than an unemployed man in America. Thus, I think the utilitarian argument holds in this case, since the misery avoided in the developing world is far worse than poverty in this country, thus the avoidance of the former through employment is superior than the avoidance of the latter, even if discounted for proximity and communitarian considerations.

Besides, I don't think the hierarchy holds very well beyond family and the immediate community in the modern world. Whatever moral duty I have to someone in Puerto Rico doesn't get stronger if Puerto Rico becomes a state, nor weaker if they declare independence. Certainly from a political perspective (this is the election thread after all), national leaders owe their own nations their professional focus and loyalty, but from an individual ethical perspective, I think the severity of suffering is of much higher importance than the proximity of the sufferer (sufferor? sufferee?).

Francis is a Catholic, whereas you are (apparently) an ideologue. He doesn't believe in Market Uber Alles. He thinks the market ought to serve communities, and not visa versa. In your eyes, that makes him a dangerous apostate from 18th century economic dogma?
That's my whole point. The market does serve communities. Automatically. It doesn't need to be made to do so. I'm not taking the side of the markets in a market-versus-community conflict because there is no conflict to begin with. When markets turn hostile to communities, it's because an artificial inefficiency has been introduced that perverts the equilibrium.

Towards the end of poverty | The Economist

Did you back yourself into a corner and just won't give up, or do you actually believe this nonsense?
I absolutely believe it, and I think it's quite obvious. I'll respond to your question with a question. Why does an American man deserve a job more than a Chinese man, especially considering that unemployed life will be much worse for the Chinese man.
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
This is where you tell me that a good society is one in which it is easy for people to be good and do good, right? I haven't responded to that statement yet, but I believe you have cause and effect all backwards. A good society does not make good citizens. Rather, good citizens make good societies. I acknowledge that there's a bit of a feedback loop but the origin of goodness the individual. The individual is the locus of morality and agency because the individual is the entity created in the image and likeness of God and the individual, not the society, has a soul.

You have no problem grasping how Marxist theories, which seek to describe every problem in terms of an evil oppressor class v. a virtuous victim class, are dangerously reductive. But Marxism was a reaction a free market capitalism, which is equally reductive in how it categorizes every problem in economic terms. "If we could just deregulate, cut taxes, and let the free market works its magic..." is no more rational than "If we could just overthrow these corrupt fat cats and let The People™ govern..."

You can't have a functional "nightwatchman" society that does nothing but protect private property rights and remains totally agnostic about everything else. That not how communities of any size work. A shared concept of the Good is necessary. We got away with pretending to be agnostic for a while because everyone more or less accepted Christian cultural norms at the founding. But they were already slipping then, and as that trend accelerated, we started coming apart at the seems. Mandating that every American citizen read a copy of The Road to Serfdom and reheating the GOP platform from 1980 isn't going to fix anything.

While true, the hierarchy is not absolute. If you could prevent a murder in Shanghai, that would clearly be morally superior to lending your brother five dollars for lunch. Employing a worker in the developing world is saving them from a fate far worse than an unemployed man in America. Thus, I think the utilitarian argument holds in this case, since the misery avoided in the developing world is far worse than poverty in this country, thus the avoidance of the former through employment is superior than the avoidance of the latter, even if discounted for proximity and communitarian considerations.

This is a great example of how liberalism is hostile to pietas. Your outlook is both materialist and cosmopolitan. Charity starts at home, and it's important not just for its effect upon the donee, but also on the donor. A man who ignores the poor in his own community to mail a donation to some far-flung corner of the globe because "they need it more" is not a good neighbor, citizen, or Christian.

Besides, I don't think the hierarchy holds very well beyond family and the immediate community in the modern world. Whatever moral duty I have to someone in Puerto Rico doesn't get stronger if Puerto Rico becomes a state, nor weaker if they declare independence. Certainly from a political perspective (this is the election thread after all), national leaders owe their own nations their professional focus and loyalty, but from an individual ethical perspective, I think the severity of suffering is of much higher importance than the proximity of the sufferer (sufferor? sufferee?).

That's a perspective. It's just based on an impoverished understanding of human flourishing, and it's not very Christian.

That's my whole point. The market does serve communities. Automatically. It doesn't need to be made to do so. I'm not taking the side of the markets in a market-versus-community conflict because there is no conflict to begin with. When markets turn hostile to communities, it's because an artificial inefficiency has been introduced that perverts the equilibrium.

No. The global economy is usually explicitly hostile to local communities. Wal-Mart moves in and puts all the mom & pop stores out of business. Elite universities hoover up all the most talented kids from across the globe and then deposits them into a handful of urban centers where they can all work in finance, politics or advertizing for the global elite. Extractive industries do the same thing with natural resources. It's obviously unsustainable, and it undermines all of the actually important things that make life worth living. Oh, but you can buy some cheap plastic bullsh!t at that 24-hour Wal-Mart now that wasn't available a few decades ago so... cheers?

I absolutely believe it, and I think it's quite obvious. I'll respond to your question with a question. Why does an American man deserve a job more than a Chinese man, especially considering that unemployed life will be much worse for the Chinese man.

He has the same innate human dignity as everyone else, so I'd like to see our Federal representatives take prudent measures to encourage the Chinese government to recognize that fact. However, he's not my neighbor, and I have absolutely no influence in his life. I do, however, have actual neighbors who have been harmed by the policies you're advocating. I have duties to them, and fortunately I'm better able to help them and advocate for a system that serves their interests rather than those of the American donor class. So that's what I'll do.

It's a novel idea, isn't it? That the American government should prioritize the well-being of American citizens first. Sort of like how you prioritize the needs of your daughter over those of other children first.
 
Last edited:

EddytoNow

Vbuck Redistributor
Messages
1,481
Reaction score
235
You want to get utilitarian about this? Let's get utilitarian.

A poor person in Dongguan or Aguascalientes is a hell of a lot worse off than a poor person in Toledo or Buffalo. I could very easily construct an argument wherein it is immoral not to ship jobs overseas. The workers willing to labor for the lowest wages are, by definition, the workers most in need of employment. Thus, companies are performing a moral good when they hire them. This nationalist bullshit that somehow American workers are morally entitled to jobs that are being shipped overseas lies somewhere on the spectrum of ignorance, xenophobia, and racism.


Pope Francis is ignorant, frankly. His infallibility doesn't extend to areas about which he had no expertise nor authority. I'm sick of this bullshit where Francis can say "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God, so 2 + 2 = walrus" and Catholics line up to defend him. His moral authority does not give him carte blanche so say whatever he wants about whatever he wants without question.

The Pope is following the teachings and the example set by Jesus. He seeks out those on the fringe of society. I know he's probably on the opposite end of the spectrum from those concerned most with sustaining their own privileged position. But he is far from ignorant. He calls out for justice and emphasizes the needs of the sick and the poor. That doesn't make him ignorant. It makes him compassionate.

We, who live in Michigan, know full well what happens when the bottom line, rather than compassion, determines policy. In an effort to save a million dollars or two, Governor Snyder appointed an Emergency Manager who put the bottom line before the health and well being of Michigan's citizens. Now, that same governor asks the federal government to provide the hundreds of million of dollars it will take to correct the problem his policy created. If his policy decisions had been driven by the same compassion shown by Pope Francis, hundreds of millions of dollars would have been saved and the children of Flint would not have been drinking lead-laden water.

Pope Francis is far smarter than you or I could imagine. Some of us are just too ignorant to see that compassion for our fellow-man is a major part of the solution to many of the problems we face going into the future. Ignoring that fact will only lead to the gradual crumbling of American society. We can work to make life better for all or we can let Trump and his insane rhetoric begin the breakdown that is inevitable without a change of course.
 

Polish Leppy 22

Well-known member
Messages
6,594
Reaction score
2,009
What once took 1000 workers may now only take 100 within the manufacturing plant, but it's still a 100 jobs we can use. And the numbers may be a bit deceiving. Sure, maybe the plant employs far less people than it may have employed twenty years ago but the mere existence of a manufacturing plant creates jobs in other industries. Truckers haul the raw material being used and the products they're selling, tradesman build the factories they use and fix/maintain equipment, employees eat at local restaurants, accountants are needed to cook the books and attorneys are needed to file frivolous work comp claims, etc. etc.

If 50,000 more Americans had their CDL license tomorrow, they would all have jobs. Saw that in a report a few months ago and I work in the industry. There's a national driver shortage now, and it's going to get worse. People my age sure as hell aren't driving truck.
 

BGIF

Varsity Club
Messages
43,946
Reaction score
2,922
If 50,000 more Americans had their CDL license tomorrow, they would all have jobs. Saw that in a report a few months ago and I work in the industry. There's a national driver shortage now, and it's going to get worse. People my age sure as hell aren't driving truck.

Yes, there is a shortage but at 40K a year and long hours away from your family why would people take that job when they will be able to flip hamburgers for $15/hour working in your own neighborhood?


The American CDL Driver Shortage: What You Need to Know | DePaul Industries

Falling driver wages. Average annual driver pay was roughly $40,000 in 2013, down 6% from 10 years prior when adjusted for inflation.
 

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
Yes, there is a shortage but at 40K a year and long hours away from your family why would people take that job when they will be able to flip hamburgers for $15/hour working in your own neighborhood?


The American CDL Driver Shortage: What You Need to Know | DePaul Industries

I'm surprised that the average is so low. I work in Elkhart (home of the RV industry) and the dudes that tow 5th wheels to clients make twice that as contract employees. Walmart drivers also average $84k a year. I wonder how they came up with that number.
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
You have no problem grasping how Marxist theories, which seek to describe every problem in terms of an evil oppressor class v. a virtuous victim class, are dangerously reductive. But Marxism was a reaction a free market capitalism, which is equally reductive in how it categorizes every problem in economic terms. "If we could just deregulate, cut taxes, and let the free market works its magic..." is no more rational than "If we could just overthrow these corrupt fat cats and let The People™ govern..."
I don't care about free markets for the sake of free markets. I care about free people. Free markets are just the natural consequence therefrom. Free people can choose how they want to live their lives. If they want to voluntarily enter a commune, so be it. If they want to farm and barter, so be it. If they want to open an Italian restaurant, so be it. I'm not in favor of governments creating as system of free market capitalism because that's a contradiction in terms. A market that needs to be created by the state is not free at all. Markets come into being spontaneously when free people freely associate with one another through trade.

You can't have a functional "nightwatchman" society that does nothing but protect private property rights and remains totally agnostic about everything else. That not how communities of any size work.
I don't believe that the United States of America or any nation of comparable size can be a "community" in all but the very loosest definition of the word. For that reason, I think the federal government absolutely should be the agnostic watchman that you described. Within that umbrella, the states, towns, schools, churches, and workplaces will be the real "communities" to which you refer. Those communities will have shared sets of values and social norms. This is the reason why I sometimes regret labeling myself a "libertarian" because I'm not the anarcho-capitalist you often portray me to be. I'm a strong libertarian when it comes to the scope and scale of the federal leviathan, but there are plenty of things at the state and local level that I'd be run out of libertarian circles for supporting. The answer is federalism.

A shared concept of the Good is necessary. We got away with pretending to be agnostic for a while because everyone more or less accepted Christian cultural norms at the founding. But they were already slipping then, and as that trend accelerated, we started coming apart at the seems. Mandating that every American citizen read a copy of The Road to Serfdom and reheating the GOP platform from 1980 isn't going to fix anything.
See above. America is too large and too diverse to achieve what you're describing. We can quibble over the details on how we got here, but it's futile to deny that it's where we are.

This is a great example of how liberalism is hostile to pietas. Your outlook is both materialist and cosmopolitan. Charity starts at home, and it's important not just for its effect upon the donee, but also on the donor. A man who ignores the poor in his own community to mail a donation to some far-flung corner of the globe because "they need it more" is not a good neighbor, citizen, or Christian.
Explain missions.

That's a perspective. It's just based on an impoverished understanding of human flourishing, and it's not very Christian.
I think your understanding of human flourishing is too limited. Private property and wealth are not hostile to complete human flourishing, they aid it.

An Eastern Orthodox Moral Case for Property Rights | Acton Institute

No. The global economy is usually explicitly hostile to local communities. Wal-Mart moves in and puts all the mom & pop stores out of business. Elite universities hoover up all the most talented kids from across the globe and then deposits them into a handful of urban centers where they can all work in finance, politics or advertizing for the global elite. Extractive industries do the same thing with natural resources. It's obviously unsustainable, and it undermines all of the actually important things that make life worth living. Oh, but you can buy some cheap plastic bullsh!t at that 24-hour Wal-Mart now that wasn't available a few decades ago so... cheers?
Come on, Whiskey. Are we really going to compare various economic systems and their consequences for society?

Countries with undeveloped economies have children literally dying in the streets.
Marxism leads to oligarchy, which leads to mass murder.
Capitalism leads to Walmart, which puts some companies out of business and pays low wages. Boo hoo?

None of those are perfect, but there's sure as hell one that stands out as "least bad."

He has the same innate human dignity as everyone else, so I'd like to see our Federal representatives take prudent measures to encourage the Chinese government to recognize that fact. However, he's not my neighbor, and I have absolutely no influence in his life. I do, however, have actual neighbors who have been harmed by the policies you're advocating. I have duties to them, and fortunately I'm better able to help them and advocate for a system that serves their interests rather than those of the American donor class. So that's what I'll do.

It's a novel idea, isn't it? That the American government should prioritize the well-being of American citizens first. Sort of like how you prioritize the needs of your daughter over those of other children first.
I agree with you. My point when I went off on my digression about the Chinese worker versus the American worker was from a theoretical ethical framework, not a political policy framework. I agree with your position that the American government should prioritize the well-being of American citizens. However, when it comes to the protectionism being bandied about by Trump and his supporters, we're in a bit of a prisoner's dilemma situation. It's not a perfect analogue, but the American government doing what's nominally in the best interest of America, to which the Chinese government will respond with what's in the best interest of China, will result in worsening conditions for all workers.

The Pope is following the teachings and the example set by Jesus. He seeks out those on the fringe of society. I know he's probably on the opposite end of the spectrum from those concerned most with sustaining their own privileged position. But he is far from ignorant. He calls out for justice and emphasizes the needs of the sick and the poor. That doesn't make him ignorant. It makes him compassionate.

Pope Francis is far smarter than you or I could imagine. Some of us are just too ignorant to see that compassion for our fellow-man is a major part of the solution to many of the problems we face going into the future. Ignoring that fact will only lead to the gradual crumbling of American society. We can work to make life better for all or we can let Trump and his insane rhetoric begin the breakdown that is inevitable without a change of course.
I don't object to Francis' compassion. My point is simply that there are certain things that aren't covered by Jesus and his teachings. For example, neither Jesus nor Francis are physicists, climatologists, nor economists. Francis can use Jesus' message to advocate against war, but he is wholly unqualified to disarm a nuclear warhead. He can use Jesus' message to advocate for environmentalism, but he is wholly unqualified to develop and proclaim carbon quotas. He can use Jesus' message to advocate for the care of the poor, but he is wholly unqualified to comment on the economic conditions that raise the poor's standard of living.
 
Last edited:

Wild Bill

Well-known member
Messages
5,517
Reaction score
3,260
Yes, there is a shortage but at 40K a year and long hours away from your family why would people take that job when they will be able to flip hamburgers for $15/hour working in your own neighborhood?

And you have to piss clean. That's a real challenge for some people.
 

FightingIrishLover7

All troll, no substance
Messages
12,703
Reaction score
7,514
I'm surprised that the average is so low. I work in Elkhart (home of the RV industry) and the dudes that tow 5th wheels to clients make twice that as contract employees. Walmart drivers also average $84k a year. I wonder how they came up with that number.
I'm talking out of my ass here some (not too familiar with the trucking industry).

However, I believe I read a couple years ago trucking corporations are now hiring the bulk of the drivers. These companies "own" the trucks, and they pay their drivers shit.

So, if this practice is common enough, it could explain for the low averages.
 

Bishop2b5

SEC Exchange Student
Messages
8,927
Reaction score
6,154
Yes, there is a shortage but at 40K a year and long hours away from your family why would people take that job when they will be able to flip hamburgers for $15/hour working in your own neighborhood?


The American CDL Driver Shortage: What You Need to Know | DePaul Industries

I'm very skeptical of that number also. I have a stake in a mid-sized trucking company and paid for a sizeable part of college and med school by driving. Over-the-road truckers average a lot more than $40k/yr. Our new drivers just out of school with no experience make at least that their first year. Experienced drivers average $60k/yr or more.
 

BGIF

Varsity Club
Messages
43,946
Reaction score
2,922
I'm surprised that the average is so low. I work in Elkhart (home of the RV industry) and the dudes that tow 5th wheels to clients make twice that as contract employees. Walmart drivers also average $84k a year. I wonder how they came up with that number.

I'm very skeptical of that number also. I have a stake in a mid-sized trucking company and paid for a sizeable part of college and med school by driving. Over-the-road truckers average a lot more than $40k/yr. Our new drivers just out of school with no experience make at least that their first year. Experienced drivers average $60k/yr or more.

That article is dated Aug 26, 2014. So it's referencing 2014 data. The URL is from DePaul Industries, a service/staffing firm. They list CDL drivers as one of the jobs they hire. It could have been there own data or Dept. of Labor. It probably does not include OT as that's considered in addition to the regular work week.

Here's a more current article from CNN Money dated October 9, 2015:

Truck drivers wanted. Pay: $73,000 - Oct. 9, 2015

The title notes:
Truck drivers wanted. Pay: $73,000

But when you read the article it turns out that NOT an industry average salary, it the salary for fleet drivers such as Walmart drivers according to ATA, American Truckers Association.

The next sentence notes:

The Labor Department pegs the median annual salary for all truck drivers at around $40,000.

I believe the first article also mentioned Federal Regulations requiring more rest/sleep periods for drivers. Your not making money when your not driving.

I've flipped burgers and I was a card carrying Teamster once upon a time in the last millenium. I'll take a$15 hour minimum wage job over the long hours and time away from the family associated with long haul work.

Like the car commerical note, mileage (or 1099's) may vary.
 

Polish Leppy 22

Well-known member
Messages
6,594
Reaction score
2,009
I'm surprised that the average is so low. I work in Elkhart (home of the RV industry) and the dudes that tow 5th wheels to clients make twice that as contract employees. Walmart drivers also average $84k a year. I wonder how they came up with that number.

I work in the industry. The $40k number is not accurate. Our city drivers (mon-fri and home every night) make $22 an hour, regular OT, and outstanding benefits. Over the road drivers start at $75k-$80k as long as you have a clean driving record and, as WildBill said, piss clear.

That $40k number is more in line with a route driver who works for your local potato chip/ bread/ pastry company.
 

Polish Leppy 22

Well-known member
Messages
6,594
Reaction score
2,009
I'm talking out of my ass here some (not too familiar with the trucking industry).

However, I believe I read a couple years ago trucking corporations are now hiring the bulk of the drivers. These companies "own" the trucks, and they pay their drivers shit.

So, if this practice is common enough, it could explain for the low averages.

Nope. We have drivers with 25 years in retiring VERY comfortably in their early to mid 50s. On the flip side, if you work for your local "Bob's Trucking" joint, they have 4 trucks, all regional, yeah you might be paid $15-18 an hour.

But if you have a CDL, a little experience, and a clean record, you can make a decent living. We're seeing higher demand for CDL drivers due to aging drivers retiring, and the reputable companies are willing to pay.
 

Polish Leppy 22

Well-known member
Messages
6,594
Reaction score
2,009
Disclaimer: I don't want Trump as the nominee, the article is from the LA freakin Times, but it's interesting:

Democrats beware: Donald Trump is finding success well outside the Republican fringe - LA Times
Democrats beware: Donald Trump is finding success well outside the Republican fringe

“He's saying a lot of things that we're thinking,” said Gil Brown, 54, an African American businessman from Lakeland. “It's so refreshing to hear somebody say things clearly."
 

BGIF

Varsity Club
Messages
43,946
Reaction score
2,922
I work in the industry. The $40k number is not accurate. Our city drivers (mon-fri and home every night) make $22 an hour, regular OT, and outstanding benefits. Over the road drivers start at $75k-$80k as long as you have a clean driving record and, as WildBill said, piss clear.

That $40k number is more in line with a route driver who works for your local potato chip/ bread/ pastry company.


I will defer to you in the industry. My personal experience is from the last millennium.

Here are Bureau of Labor Statistics for 2014 most current I could find.


Heavy and Tractor-Trailer Truck Drivers

Median Salary $41,930

90 Percentile $61,150

These are annual salaries based on 2080 hours/year.
 
Last edited:

BGIF

Varsity Club
Messages
43,946
Reaction score
2,922
Protesters block road outside Trump Arizona event, march in NYC - CNNPolitics.com

By Eugene Scott, CNN
Updated 2:55 PM ET, Sat March 19, 2016


Washington (CNN)Dozens of protesters blocked traffic near a Donald Trump event in Arizona on Saturday, while demonstrators marched in New York City to protest the GOP front-runner.

The protesters in Arizona parked vehicles sideways on Shea Boulevard, blocking both lanes of traffic into Fountain Hills, Arizona, where Trump was scheduled to hold a rally Saturday afternoon, Maricopa County Sheriff's Office Deputy Joaquin Enriquez told CNN.

Enriquez described Shea Boulevard as the main artery into the area and the protesters' actions were causing motorists to drive into oncoming traffic as they tried to get around them. Traffic was backed up for miles due to the blockage.

...
 

yankeehater

Well-known member
Messages
2,197
Reaction score
774
I'm surprised that the average is so low. I work in Elkhart (home of the RV industry) and the dudes that tow 5th wheels to clients make twice that as contract employees. Walmart drivers also average $84k a year. I wonder how they came up with that number.

Walmart is currently running radio ads out here in California and the commercial states first year drivers will make right around the number you posted.

There is also a shortage of qualified steel welders out here. I know a guy who is certified that just closed his shop (too expensive to run a business) and makes over $100/hr as a freelance welder.

Sad that current society deems one a failure if you do not get a college degree. We need more trade schools not college grads.
 

BGIF

Varsity Club
Messages
43,946
Reaction score
2,922
Walmart is currently running radio ads out here in California and the commercial states first year drivers will make right around the number you posted.

There is also a shortage of qualified steel welders out here. I know a guy who is certified that just closed his shop (too expensive to run a business) and makes over $100/hr as a freelance welder.

Sad that current society deems one a failure if you do not get a college degree. We need more trade schools not college grads.

Amen!
 

BGIF

Varsity Club
Messages
43,946
Reaction score
2,922
Virgins Vote Today

Virgins Vote Today

March 19, 2016 (9 bound delegates)

U.S. Virgin Islands (9) — Winner take all



March 22, 2016 (107 bound delegates)

American Samoa Convention (9) — Delegates elected and bound at convention
Arizona Primary (58) — Winner take all
Utah Caucuses (40) — Proportional with 15% threshold
 
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
Sad that current society deems one a failure if you do not get a college degree. We need more trade schools not college grads.

We need more of both. It is silly to ignore the monetary benefits of having a college degree, more times than not it is an boost to one's income. Too often blue collar America assumes most college grads are philosophy majors with $80k in debt walking around wasting space.

There is also a consequence of more kids choosing trade schools, the labor pool grows for X trade and the wages drop. So there is some irony in the decision to get more kids to attend trade schools for good wages.
 

Polish Leppy 22

Well-known member
Messages
6,594
Reaction score
2,009
Anyone care to compare/ contrast the 2008 "Hope and Change" of Obama to the 2016 "Make America Great Again" of Trump? Reading the posts of Loomis earlier this week reminded me of a lot of Obama voters in 2008.
 
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
Anyone care to compare/ contrast the 2008 "Hope and Change" of Obama to the 2016 "Make America Great Again" of Trump? Reading the posts of Loomis earlier this week reminded me of a lot of Obama voters in 2008.

Similarities: Every candidate who has ever run for President needs to point out that X is bad and you have the answer. Every candidate is talking about change, to varying degrees.

If there is a precursor to Trump, it's Buchanan.

The obvious differences between Obama and Trump is that in 2008 the economy was imploding and we were in multiple wars Americans didn't want to be in. Without question the country is better off today than in 2008, so "Making America Great Again" is a bit more disingenuous in my view.
 

IrishJayhawk

Rock Chalk
Messages
7,181
Reaction score
464
Similarities: Every candidate who has ever run for President needs to point out that X is bad and you have the answer. Every candidate is talking about change, to varying degrees.

If there is a precursor to Trump, it's Buchanan.

The obvious differences between Obama and Trump is that in 2008 the economy was imploding and we were in multiple wars Americans didn't want to be in. Without question the country is better off today than in 2008, so "Making America Great Again" is a bit more disingenuous in my view.

Similarly, every election is framed as the most important one in our lifetimes. That's not new.
 

GATTACA!

It's about to get gross
Messages
15,102
Reaction score
12,935
Similarities: Every candidate who has ever run for President needs to point out that X is bad and you have the answer. Every candidate is talking about change, to varying degrees.

If there is a precursor to Trump, it's Buchanan.

The obvious differences between Obama and Trump is that in 2008 the economy was imploding and we were in multiple wars Americans didn't want to be in. Without question the country is better off today than in 2008, so "Making America Great Again" is a bit more disingenuous in my view.

Stability isn't greatness. Obama pulled us out of a tailspin, but there is certainly plenty of room for further improvement. Whether or not Trump is the man to do it however is very debatable.
 
Top