2014 Fall Camp Thread

Luckylucci

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I expect better run blocking under Heistand in the coming years with these big guys they've brought in. I think we've taken a step back in that regard since the switch from Warriner. Warriner certainly did good things turning OSU's run game around. Heistand has killed it in pass blocking development though, no complaints from me in that department.

The lack of consistent run game, IMO is due to the way defenses played Tommy. We ran the ball really well in 2012 and in 2013 defenses put eight men or more in the box. That makes it pretty tough to run the ball.
 

Luckylucci

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Post from Tj regarding WR and TE position.


TBD through August camp -- there's very good competition here and a number of guys will contribute.

Right now, through summer and heading into fall camp (FWIW), the most consistent talk has centered upon Carlisle and Prosise (that order) at Slot/Z WR, and Brown and Robinson as Outside WRs to complement Daniels. A wild card to watch into the season for possible emergence is Hunter Jr., either at X (Outside) WR or at Z (Slot) WR.

All the frosh pass-catchers have done some positive things thus far in limited workout situations, with Weishar (TE) leading the way in a detached/Flexed role.

Also, cannot overstate how optimistic and pleased the staff is thus far with Smythe at TE.
 

STLDomer

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The OL in 2015 is gonna be the shit.

With Folston and GB still behind them.

tumblr_lz9vfcVTAl1rpsvhdo1_500.gif
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Actually, in 15 all position groups are. Can you imagine the staff looking at Zaire with a higher upside that Golson??? !!! ???

Also, about ND run blocking, Lucky was right; it has very little to do with HH's coaching, and mostly to do with the offense installed to work for Tommy, and the way defenses played Tommy.
 

ulukinatme

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I dunno. We'll see after this season how the run blocking goes. I've taken into consideration what teams were doing against Tommy in 2013, but to be honest I felt like we were sloppy at times in 2012 too, the difference is our rushing yards were buoyed by Golson's contributions.

I do love Heistand, and I do think he was an upgrade to Warriner is just about every department, but I feel like we've looked a bit sloppy in our blocking on running plays. I feel it's been a step back, to be honest. Make no mistake, the pass blocking has been phenomenal though, it really couldn't be better. If we're going to throw the ball 35 times a game, it's better if we're focused more on pass blocking.
 

Luckylucci

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I dunno. We'll see after this season how the run blocking goes. I've taken into consideration what teams were doing against Tommy in 2013, but to be honest I felt like we were sloppy at times in 2012 too, the difference is our rushing yards were buoyed by Golson's contributions.

I do love Heistand, and I do think he was an upgrade to Warriner is just about every department, but I feel like we've looked a bit sloppy in our blocking on running plays. I feel it's been a step back, to be honest. Make no mistake, the pass blocking has been phenomenal though, it really couldn't be better. If we're going to throw the ball 35 times a game, it's better if we're focused more on pass blocking.

I'm not sure we were watching the same games that year. We won 12 games in 2012 because we played exceptional defense and closed out games running the ball. From a contributions standpoint I highly disagree. Golson only had 298 yards during 2012. He avg. 3.2/carry which puts him 4th on the team in total yards and avg/carry. Our 4 Rb's that year avg. 5.95 yds./carry. Thats pretty darn good. However, just like Bogs and I explained its what Golson could do that kept defenses honest. You can't crash the outside if he can keep the ball and get passed you. You can bring a S into the box and play 8 or even 9 if Golson can't hit you over the top. Both things are major contributors to what your talking about.
 
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PANDFAN

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Post from Tj regarding WR and TE position.


TBD through August camp -- there's very good competition here and a number of guys will contribute.

Right now, through summer and heading into fall camp (FWIW), the most consistent talk has centered upon Carlisle and Prosise (that order) at Slot/Z WR, and Brown and Robinson as Outside WRs to complement Daniels. A wild card to watch into the season for possible emergence is Hunter Jr., either at X (Outside) WR or at Z (Slot) WR.

All the frosh pass-catchers have done some positive things thus far in limited workout situations, with Weishar (TE) leading the way in a detached/Flexed role.

Also, cannot overstate how optimistic and pleased the staff is thus far with Smythe at TE.

praise came a lot during the bowl practices and he has all the tools..he might end up being a hell of a steal that we got late in the game
 

STLDomer

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Actually, in 15 all position groups are. Can you imagine the staff looking at Zaire with a higher upside that Golson??? !!! ???

Also, about ND run blocking, Lucky was right; it has very little to do with HH's coaching, and mostly to do with the offense installed to work for Tommy, and the way defenses played Tommy.

We lose Davaris likely so WR could take a blow in '15 but should be fine.

I'd be most worried on Offense about a 2nd TE when Koyack leaves.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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We lose Davaris likely so WR could take a blow in '15 but should be fine.

I'd be most worried on Offense about a 2nd TE when Koyack leaves.

With Heuerman, Weishar, Luatua a year older, I don't think it's a worry who'll complement Smythe in '15, but maybe I have rose-colored glasses on.
 

NDdomer2

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As of DD's current contributions I don't see him being a huge loss. He has been too inconsistent. Maybe we can't replace him with someone that can match DD's high, but we can replace him with someone that never finds his low.

Now, DD most certainly can have an unbelievable year and change my tune. (I hope he does)
 
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Ironman8

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I love Nic Weishar. Even if Luatua only really contributes with occasional catches but solid blocking, I like the pass catching future of our TEs with Smythe, Weishar and Heuerman.
 

Ironman8

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All good options. Besides Luatua though, I don't know who will be able to block well of them.

The thing is though, if we keep trending toward more Dual Threat QBs and spreading the field, that usually translates to only one in-line TE the majority of the time. Very different offensive structure than when Tommy was here.

When we do need the extra bulk in short yardage and goalline, have an OT like McGlinchey, Bar, etc. report eligible and be the extra blocker in the TE role.
 

Emcee77

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With Heuerman, Weishar, Luatua a year older, I don't think it's a worry who'll complement Smythe in '15, but maybe I have rose-colored glasses on.

All good options. Besides Luatua though, I don't know who will be able to block well of them.

Right, all three of those are big question marks, IMO. Heuerman is undersized. Weishar is a TE/WR and Tyler-Eifert-circa-2008 clone who may or may not develop into a serviceable blocker, as Eifert fortunately did. Luatua has the potential but his work ethic and fitness were frequently questioned on this board during his recruitment.

Don't get me wrong, I love the potential of all three prospects, but I'll have some concern about who will complement/back up Smythe until I hear one of them getting the rave reviews that Smythe is getting. Or maybe "concern" is too strong a word ... it will be a "position to watch."

The thing is though, if we keep trending toward more Dual Threat QBs and spreading the field, that usually translates to only one in-line TE the majority of the time. Very different offensive structure than when Tommy was here.

When we do need the extra bulk in short yardage and goalline, have an OT like McGlinchey, Bar, etc. report eligible and be the extra blocker in the TE role.

True. We may just need one of these guys to develop into a good in-line TE, and by all accounts Smythe has the makings of that player.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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Don't get me wrong, I love the potential of all three prospects, but I'll have some concern about who will complement/back up Smythe until I hear one of them getting the rave reviews that Smythe is getting.

All of these guys attend "TE U". If there's one position recent history indicates we don't have to worry about, it's TE (though Hiestand's OL may have something to say about that soon...)
 

NDWorld247

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I'm not sure we were watching the same games that year. We won 12 games in 2012 because we played exceptional defense and closed out games running the ball. From a contributions standpoint I highly disagree. Golson only had 298 yards during 2012. He avg. 3.2/carry which puts him 4th on the team in total yards and avg/carry. Our 4 Rb's that year avg. 5.95 yds./carry. Thats pretty darn good. However, just like Bogs and I explained its what Golson could do that kept defenses honest. You can't crash the outside if he can keep the ball and get passed you. You can't bring a S into the box and play 8 or even 9 if Golson can't hit you over the top. Both things are major contributors to what your talking about.

Golson's 2012 rushing contributions should be looked at as a tale of two seasons. In the first 4 games, he had 21 carries for -11 yards. BK had the reins on him and waited for the right time / until he was ready to open up the playbook with his young QB. The next 5 games he played in (Miami, Stanford, Oklahoma, Pitt, BC) he ran for 269 yards on 58 rushes (4.6 ypc). After a one rush game (0 yards) vs. WF, he ran for 47 yds on 9 carries @ USC. I don't know how many were designed runs vs. EG tuck and run, but there was definitely a philosophy shift in the play calling during these 6 games, and the rushing production benefited from EG's contributions.

So, in 6 games he ran for 316 yds on 67 carries (4.7 ypc), and the other 6 games were 27 carries for -18 yards. Taking into account his sack yards (15 for 90 yds), which IMO unfairly count against his rushing stats, he ran for 388 yards on 79 carries (4.9ypc) for the season, but essentially only in the 6 games that BK wanted to use him in the run game. We ran for 1,377 yards (229.5/gm) in those 6 games vs. 1,085 yards (180.8/gm) in the other six.

I think 2014 will be similar in the sense that BK will run him when he needs to, and I expect overall production to be similar to or surpass 2012 (2,462 yds). Last year's OL didn't have that luxury and production fell off by 504 yards, but neither did the 2012 OL for half of the season, so it's really hard to compare the two or be too critical of the job HH has done (not talking about anyone specifically). To ulikinatme's point though, the run game has looked sloppy at times, but you could say that about the offense in general.

As of right now, we don't have the same issues on offense as the past two seasons (Golson learning his way in 2012 and Rees' limitations), which is why we're all so excited about the season. I don't have any concerns with whether or not HH's guys will be up to task (e.g. their run blocking), nor do I have any concerns about the offense with EG or MZ leading it, but what will be interesting to see is if the HH and the OL can reach the expectation level that's been building since his arrival.
 

Wild Bill

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I wouldn't be shocked if Weishar develops into a solid blocker. Similar to Eifert - nothing spectacular, but above average. He's got a good build and seems like a coachable, hard working kid.
 

Irish8248

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huge call for BK and HH now on deciding whether to RS Nelson or not

Idk, you red shirt unless absolutely needed or hes unequivocally the best. Staggering depth isn't a bad thing especially if HH ever gets the itch to go back into the pros
 

Emcee77

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All of these guys attend "TE U". If there's one position recent history indicates we don't have to worry about, it's TE (though Hiestand's OL may have something to say about that soon...)

Ha, true enough. I am a nervous nelly sometimes.
 

ulukinatme

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I'm not sure we were watching the same games that year. We won 12 games in 2012 because we played exceptional defense and closed out games running the ball. From a contributions standpoint I highly disagree. Golson only had 298 yards during 2012. He avg. 3.2/carry which puts him 4th on the team in total yards and avg/carry. Our 4 Rb's that year avg. 5.95 yds./carry. Thats pretty darn good. However, just like Bogs and I explained its what Golson could do that kept defenses honest. You can't crash the outside if he can keep the ball and get passed you. You can't bring a S into the box and play 8 or even 9 if Golson can't hit you over the top. Both things are major contributors to what your talking about.

I was strictly going by stats. Between 2011 and 2012 we picked up 370ish yards in the running game, most of which were contributed by Golson so the numbers are somewhat artificially bolstered. To me, the 440 extra yards in the running game we picked up between the 2010 and 2011 seasons was more impressive since that was with Tommy at the helm the entire season. Given that Crist was somewhat more mobile than Tommy and he played most of 2010, that kind of defeats the Rees argument.

In any case, the fact the running game suffered in 2013 does have something to do with the way defenses approached us with Rees in the pocket, but it also has to do with the play calling. If we could have actually called some screens and executed them it might have kept defenses more honest. The play calling was just as much at fault, if not more so because we allowed the defense to dictate what we were going to do offensively instead of burning them for stacking the box.
 

Irish2155

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I think it's not so complicated. Kelly had a QB one year, a red shirt freshman, won 12 games and played in the NCG.

The other years he had Tommy Rees.

Playing with a legit QB opens up a lot of options offensively.
 

ulukinatme

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I think it's not so complicated. Kelly had a QB one year, a red shirt freshman, won 12 games and played in the NCG.

The other years he had Tommy Rees.

Playing with a legit QB opens up a lot of options offensively.

Ugh...I'm not refuting that Golson doesn't open up options offensively. In fact, I'm completely taking him out of the equation as many of his yards come when a passing play breaks down. I was trying to say that our run blocking has taken a step back, strictly from an execution standpoint and completely separate from any lost production due to defensive schemes or QB play.

Maybe it's just me, I watch linemen a lot being a former big guy in the trenches. I saw the run blocking improve through the end of 2010 into 2011 when we saw a huge jump in the running game (400+ yards). All those yards came from our backs, and 2011 was one of the first years we had a great rushing attack again after years of futility. I felt like Warriner was a big part in getting the running game going as it was abysmal under Charlie (As low as 900 yards in 2007, finishing with 1500 his last year). If you look at what Warriner did in his previous stops and his current stop at OSU, his teams have always done well running the ball when he was OL coach, or in Kansas's case they were a very good passing team when he was OC. Again, I'm not out to get Harry, I absolutely love he's done with recruiting and our pass blocking, but from what I've seen we've gotten sloppy with the run blocking and opening holes. I'm not factoring in Rees, or what defenses are doing, I'm strictly talking about rushing yards and what I've seen from an execution standpoint from the OL.


Maybe this will help illustrate my point:

Year Attempts Yards Avg
2009 401 1539 3.84
2010 414 1646 3.98
2011 433 2085 4.82
2012 506 2462 4.85
2013 440 1962 4.46

Based on the numbers above we saw the smallest increase in average yards between 2011 and 2012. This was despite the fact we had a mobile QB, which is where most of the extra yards that year came from. Despite the fact a mobile QB can open up your game we only increased our average rushing yards by .03 yards a carry. We also had a fairly experienced offensive line in 2012, so you would possibly expect more improvement instead of little change. In 2013 we saw a substantial drop in the average yards, partly because of teams loading the box and we decided not to attack them vertically or call screens, but we were also sloppy in our run blocking imo. I can't really back that up with data or anything, that was just my assessment watching the games. Of course we saw the biggest gain between 2010-2011 and that was with Tommy at QB still. We may have only won 8 games that season, but if you consider that the 1st half of USF was an absolute abomination, our defense blew the Michigan game, and the other two were very winnable (FSU and USC, Stanford wasn't going to happen)...that 2011 team could have been pretty good. Regardless, our running game was very good that year despite having a statue at QB, and our running backs had epic holes to run through at times. Aside from some plays here and there, I haven't seen us opening holes as often and as large the last few years.


This is all moot really if we come out and have a great year this year. We've got two great young budding backs in Bryant and Folston, and I certainly love what Cam does too. I'm just worried that these guys will never see their full potential if our run blocking slides.
 
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Irishman77

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I am dying to see a old school jumbo offense on goal line situations

Stanley Elmer. Nelson. Martin mustipher. Lombard. McGlinchey

Golson


Bryant. Cam. Folston
 

ulukinatme

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I am dying to see a old school jumbo offense on goal line situations

Stanley Elmer. Nelson. Martin mustipher. Lombard. McGlinchey

Golson


Bryant. Cam. Folston

Wow...can you imagine...wait, you just did :laugh: Theres something awesome about lining up in a formation like that and ramming the ball down the opponent's throat. Of course, it's a real downer if you're like Stanford and you get stuffed 4 times in a row. I would have at least tried the PA on 3rd or 4th down.
 

tadman95

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I am dying to see a old school jumbo offense on goal line situations

Stanley Elmer. Nelson. Martin mustipher. Lombard. McGlinchey

Golson


Bryant. Cam. Folston

Hadn't thought about it like that. Bryant, Folston, Cam in there together?! That would be fun to watch. Bet we see it at least once.
 

ulukinatme

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Hadn't thought about it like that. Bryant, Folston, Cam in there together?! That would be fun to watch. Bet we see it at least once.

I would settle for a Split Back set with Folston and Bryant, or Folston and Cam. We used the formation a couple times last year, I just don't remember who we had back there. Probably Carlisle and GAIII at the time.
 

GoldenDomer

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I would settle for a Split Back set with Folston and Bryant, or Folston and Cam. We used the formation a couple times last year, I just don't remember who we had back there. Probably Carlisle and GAIII at the time.

Coulda been Bryant, Folston, and Hood...



I think I got a boner.
 
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