'14 CO ATH Nathan Starks (UCLA Verbal)

[Luckylucci]

Going back to the pages and pages of discussion. We don't know the full situation. I'm sure the coaches do. While I'm sure RB availability in this class plays into it, I also think the coaches, especially TA has a comfort level with Starks and his behavior going forward.

I could care less about the critics. There will always be critics of ND. Would you want it any other way?

^good post. I think we can take a step back from this for now. There is a long long time until NSD and a lot can change. Just because we are picking up interest doesn't mean he's signing his LOI tomorrow.

 

[NDBoiler]

Going back to the pages and pages of discussion. We don't know the full situation. I'm sure the coaches do. While I'm sure RB availability in this class plays into it, I also think the coaches, especially TA has a comfort level with Starks and his behavior going forward.

I could care less about the critics. There will always be critics of ND. Would you want it any other way?[/QUOTE]

You are correct in that we do not know all the details, but we do for sure know he was dismissed from his school fopr a reason, notwithstanding that it could have been for, ahem, selling contraband against school policy (happy, Buster? ).

You are also correct in that there will always be critics. However, now you (BK) would look like a bit of a hypocrite if you're going to talk publicly about recruiting "RKGs" or guys that fit a certain profile, as BK alluded to in the article about recruiting in SEC country. I'd rather those things not be said publicly if you're willing to reach a bit outside said profile if the situation presents it self, as it appears to be the case with Starks. If ND is truly about being "different" from the SEC and OSUs of the world when it comes to not just taking anybody, how does this not fly in the face of that, at least to a degree?

 

[woolybug25]

^good post. I think we can take a step back from this for now. There is a long long time until NSD and a lot can change. Just because we are picking up interest doesn't mean he's signing his LOI tomorrow.

I think a lot of you are using the "let's wait and see what happens" argument as an excuse to get your hopes up.

I vividly remember Sapp (whose opinion I respect a whole lot more than Loy's) saying that we were still interested in Yuri Wright, right up until it was apparent that the interest was not mutual betweenYuri and ND. He was interested, we were not.

That was just texts that raised the red flags, Yuri wasn't expelled from school for "rumored" drug dealing. You dude's can get your hopes up, err... I mean, "wait and see". But I think that it would take a drastic veer from historical prescendence for Starks to be admitted here. Our standards have been pretty consistent over the years, so I would find it very surprising if we went off course this drastically.

 

[PANDFAN]

I think a lot of you are using the "let's wait and see what happens" argument as an excuse to get your hopes up.

I vividly remember Sapp (whose opinion I respect a whole lot more than Loy's) saying that we were still interested in Yuri Wright, right up until it was apparent that the interest was not mutual betweenYuri and ND. He was interested, we were not.

That was just texts that raised the red flags, Yuri wasn't expelled from school for "rumored" drug dealing. You dude's can get your hopes up, err... I mean, "wait and see". But I think that it would take a drastic veer from historical prescendence for Starks to be admitted here. Our standards have been pretty consistent over the years, so I would find it very surprising if we went off course this drastically.

i tried doing a little search to see if we have ever....man found out thatt George Gipp was famously known as a boozer and gambler before being admitted into ND but came on a baseball scholly...didn't have a high school diploma(didn't matter back then i guess) and was kicked off the baseball team because he didn't listen to the coaches to bunt(he ended up hitting a home run instead) but anyways i guess the guy just did what he wanted and no one was going to tell him what to do...

 

[Luckylucci]

I think a lot of you are using the "let's wait and see what happens" argument as an excuse to get your hopes up.

I vividly remember Sapp (whose opinion I respect a whole lot more than Loy's) saying that we were still interested in Yuri Wright, right up until it was apparent that the interest was not mutual betweenYuri and ND. He was interested, we were not.

That was just texts that raised the red flags, Yuri wasn't expelled from school for "rumored" drug dealing. You dude's can get your hopes up, err... I mean, "wait and see". But I think that it would take a drastic veer from historical prescendence for Starks to be admitted here. Our standards have been pretty consistent over the years, so I would find it very surprising if we went off course this drastically.

I can't speak for others but my perspective is what I just posted. There is months until NSD and I think that being patient is the only way to go about following recruiting. Because no matter what is happening now, it doesn't matter. There is no way to know but I would be willing to bet that the staff is very aware of everything you've thought of and then some and they probably have a plan. They just haven't called to inform us what that is. We are taking "picking up interest" and running with it at this point. Lets gather more info as the process goes along and create a clearer picture.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I agree with Wooly here. The university holds their public image higher than the football team (as all schools should). I don't see them bending on their standards to allow a quality recruit in the doors. Granted like others have pointed out, we don't know the whole story. Obviously things can happen to rectify an image and get back in some good graces after an expulsion. But as others have pointed out, it's just not how ND has done things in the past and it'll be a red flag going forward if they put the team ahead of the university.

Personally, I'm glad the staff pushes the boundaries a little and goes after those borderline recruits. However, I wish they had a threshold (almost a hard calendar date) set where they move on from a prospect if certain criteria isn't met or certain ducks aren't in a row. The foreign language criteria has burned us so many times. I have a feeling this will to if Starks picks ND and admissions doesn't let him in.

 

[Rack Em]

That being said, we can certainly make the assumption that this staff will try to slide a questionable student profile through admissions, As evidenced by Tee Shepherd. We can also look back and see if we have ever admitted a football player that was expelled from high school before. That answer is "no".

So while it is speculation, it is one is based in strong historical evidence and the other simply in hopes of landing a good athlete.

I think we have all seen how this story ends...

My guess is that Admissions will give BK less slack than in previous years on recruits since Tee Shepard.

Also, academic issues and character concerns are different animals. Academic issues can be resolved with tangible evidence proving they are resolved. Character issues can be resolved but there is never any hard proof that they are resolved. In my opinion, that could be the difference here. Yes, Tony Alford may say Starks is a changed man but that doesn't mean Admissions will believe him.

 

[calvegas04]

would be a great 2nd chance story for ND, hope he has his grades up and joins the Irish

 

[pkt77242]

My guess is that Admissions will give BK less slack than in previous years on recruits since Tee Shepard.

Also, academic issues and character concerns are different animals. Academic issues can be resolved with tangible evidence proving they are resolved. Character issues can be resolved but there is never any hard proof that they are resolved. In my opinion, that could be the difference here. Yes, Tony Alford may say Starks is a changed man but that doesn't mean Admissions will believe him.

I view them as the same. Starks could go speak to middle schools about his mistakes and how they shouldn't make them, he could volunteer at places that help people with drug addictions, he could do many things to show proof that he is a better man and has changed. Also just like with academics it is no guarantee that he won't slip back to his old ways. Just because someone showed improvement in the academics doesn't mean that they won't take a turn for the worse once they are admitted, just like people who had character issues previously.

For the record I am not a huge fan of admitting him in with the limited amount of knowledge that we have currently. I reserve the right to change my mind if more information becomes available.

 

[Rack Em]

I view them as the same. Starks could go speak to middle schools about his mistakes and how they shouldn't make them, he could volunteer at places that help people with drug addictions, he could do many things to show proof that he is a better man and has changed. Also just like with academics it is no guarantee that he won't slip back to his old ways. Just because someone showed improvement in the academics doesn't mean that they won't take a turn for the worse once they are admitted, just like people who had character issues previously.

For the record I am not a huge fan of admitting him in with the limited amount of knowledge that we have currently. I reserve the right to change my mind if more information becomes available.

Go have a drink...

 

[Buster Bluth]

I vividly remember Sapp (whose opinion I respect a whole lot more than Loy's) saying that we were still interested in Yuri Wright, right up until it was apparent that the interest was not mutual betweenYuri and ND. He was interested, we were not.

Yuri Wright didn't have the benefit of time to repent on his side.

That was just texts that raised the red flags, Yuri wasn't expelled from school for "rumored" drug dealing.

And if the staff is still after him that tells us there is a variable that's missing.

Our drug laws aren't designed to tell the whole story, they're designed to criminalize in the greatest numbers possible. You don't have to be caught selling drugs to be considered a drug dealer, just simply carry enough. The equivalent of a cast of beer is enough to do it. It's normally a tiny amount, e.g. an ounce of weed.

My theory on the matter is that he was simply caught with molly, a drug that does little more than make you really happy via releasing a rush of endorphins (according to my user buddies). It's what you'd take if you were going to go to a dance at the school or a club or attend a concert. He probably got busted then, as plenty of kids do through their own stupidity. I'm not going to say a kid who does that is morally corrupt when we cheer kids on "going out" with the team on visits. They're both immensely illegal, in Ohio that'd be just shy of a felony.


You dude's can get your hopes up, err... I mean, "wait and see". But I think that it would take a drastic veer from historical prescendence for Starks to be admitted here. Our standards have been pretty consistent over the years, so I would find it very surprising if we went off course this drastically.[/QUOTE]

 

[Emcee77]

You are also correct in that there will always be critics. However, now you (BK) would look like a bit of a hypocrite if you're going to talk publicly about recruiting "RKGs" or guys that fit a certain profile, as BK alluded to in the article about recruiting in SEC country. I'd rather those things not be said publicly if you're willing to reach a bit outside said profile if the situation presents it self, as it appears to be the case with Starks. If ND is truly about being "different" from the SEC and OSUs of the world when it comes to not just taking anybody, how does this not fly in the face of that, at least to a degree?

But we don't know that Starks isn't an RKG ... we don't know the circumstances. I don't want to speculate, but the offense could have been extremely minor and a truly isolated incident. If it's "selling drugs," maybe he finds a bag of molly lost or abandoned at a party and decides to sell it for prom money. Then he gets busted and demonstrates afterward that he is an exemplary student ... goes to a new school, stays out of trouble, becomes a leader and star instantly, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, has learned from his mistake. If those are the circumstances (they might be or might not be, we don't know), and if RKG means a team-oriented guy who will go to class, work hard and stay out of trouble, I don't know how we can be so certain that Starks isn't one.

But I think that it would take a drastic veer from historical precedence for Starks to be admitted here. Our standards have been pretty consistent over the years, so I would find it very surprising if we went off course this drastically.

As far as I know that's true. I can't think of anyone who has been admitted to ND after being expelled.

But I also can't think of one good reason for a blanket rule that if you have been expelled from your high school, you should be categorically excluded from attending ND, at least as applied to someone like Starks, who, like most football players, we will already have to take a closer look at to determine whether he will be successful at ND.

As I've said elsewhere on the board, I think that a blanket rule like that makes sense for regular students because the admissions staff is dealing with thousands upon thousands of applications. They simply can't take the time to investigate the circumstances of every expulsion; they have to take a shortcut and assume that the expulsion indicates that the kid is the type of kid who gets into trouble.

But with scholarship football players we commonly take LOTS of extra time to look closely and holistically at a kid to determine whether he will be successful at ND. The coaches develop personal relationships with the kid, they meet the family, they personally talk to teachers, coaches and administrators at his school, etc. etc. If, after doing all that, it appears to them--and they can convince ND admissions-- that Starks made one isolated mistake, and that he can bounce back from that and become an exemplary student and player, why shouldn't he be admitted? ND has an opportunity to make a fact-based determination whether Starks is worth a shot, an opportunity most students don't get the benefit of. It's really the same principle as relaxing standards to admit weaker students -- we take a closer look to determine whether they can hack it at ND.

Now, do I think it's likely that Starks will get into ND? No, not really. If he sold drugs ... let's just say that most respectable people look down on that. Some people will simply judge him for the decision to do that, fairly or unfairly.

But do I think it's impossible? Well, I don't know ... but it shouldn't be.

 

[pkt77242]

Go have a drink...

After reading Wooly and Buster's back and forth, I just might need one.

 

[woolybug25]

Yuri Wright didn't have the benefit of time to repent on his side.



And if the staff is still after him that tells us there is a variable that's missing.

I used Yuri as an example of not only our past admissions precedence, but rather the fact that it was "reported" that we were still after him hard. When the reality was that we weren't at all. My point is that just because people haven't changed their crystal ball predictions and that bonehead Loy is still yapping, doesn't mean that we are truly still pursuing him. Our staff still communicating with him is probably all that's behind our alleged pursuit, IMO.

I am on your side of the ideological debate on drug perceptions, but those perceptions don't actually have much relevance in this debate, as we can all assume what side of the ideological coin the University of Notre Dame (and the Du Lac, for that matter) stand on the issue.

 

[Buster Bluth]

I used Yuri as an example of not only our past admissions precedence, but rather the fact that it was "reported" that we were still after him hard. When the reality was that we weren't at all. My point is that just because people haven't changed their crystal ball predictions and that bonehead Loy is still yapping, doesn't mean that we are truly still pursuing him. Our staff still communicating with him is probably all that's behind our alleged pursuit, IMO.

I am on your side of the ideological debate on drug perceptions, but those perceptions don't actually have much relevance in this debate, as we can all assume what side of the ideological coin the University of Notre Dame (and the Du Lac, for that matter) stand on the issue.

Those are all fair points.

At the end of the day we know soooo little about this conversation. Although I will claim I knew a month ago just for kicks.

I can, however, see a few scenarios in which he is admitted into the university. No one is saying it isn't an uphill battle though.

 

[aubeirish]

We couldn't get Randy Moss in, Stark is not coming here. I agree with Wooly here.

That felt weird.

 

[woolybug25]

Although I will claim I knew a month ago just for kicks.

That is a glory in which we should all aspire.

I agree with Wooly here.

That felt weird.

Admit it... while it felt so wrong, it also felt oh so good.

 

[Luckylucci]

I used Yuri as an example of not only our past admissions precedence, but rather the fact that it was "reported" that we were still after him hard. When the reality was that we weren't at all. My point is that just because people haven't changed their crystal ball predictions and that bonehead Loy is still yapping, doesn't mean that we are truly still pursuing him. Our staff still communicating with him is probably all that's behind our alleged pursuit, IMO.

I am on your side of the ideological debate on drug perceptions, but those perceptions don't actually have much relevance in this debate, as we can all assume what side of the ideological coin the University of Notre Dame (and the Du Lac, for that matter) stand on the issue.

Rob Cassidy of rivals did an interview with him where he said that since Hood's de-commitment we have picked up interest and communication with Starks. That coming from starks. He's always been in some level of communication with Alford but that has increased. So this is coming from multiple sources including the kid.

 

[woolybug25]

Rob Cassidy of rivals did an interview with him where he said that since Hood's de-commitment we have picked up interest and communication with Starks. That coming from starks. He's always been in some level of communication with Alford but that has increased. So this is coming from multiple sources including the kid.

That's exactly what Yuri Wright said as well. Just sayin'....

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Why is everyone so certain he can't get in?


We don't know the real reason for his dismissal. (Right?)

And surely the staff wouldn't waste the time investment if they knew he was an automatic rejection.

I trust the staff more than speculators, sorry guys.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

 

[woolybug25]

Why is everyone so certain he can't get in?


We don't know the real reason for his dismissal. (Right?)

And surely the staff wouldn't waste the time investment if they knew he was an automatic rejection.

I trust the staff more than speculators, sorry guys.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

Literally every one of your questions was addressed in the last two pages. lol

 

[Luckylucci]

We are getting way ahead of ourselves. First of all, both sites I follow with guys that get paid to do this believe that there is increased activity between the two so I count that as fact, you can have whatever conspiracy you want on that topic. Second, this is nowhere close to being over. He's not going to commit to us anytime soon so lets not get carried away and argue about stuff that hasn't happened. All thats happened is we increased contact with a kid in questionable standing, thats it. If you don't like that, sorry but its not really that big of a deal.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Lol.
My bad, bro.

 

[dwshade]

ND isn't going to take Starks. Move on. The last offense wasn't the first. It simply was the one that put the nail in the coffin so to speak. Multiple offenses.

 

[Irish#1]

Let's take out the fact that a simple google search will tell admissions everything they need to know regarding his dismissal and make the unlikely assumption that he was expelled for something completely aside from drug dealing.

How many expelled athletes has Notre Dame admitted in the past?

The never admitted illegal aliens before.

would be a great 2nd chance story for ND, hope he has his grades up and joins the Irish

Rudy the Sequel

 

[GBdomer]

What drives me nuts is that we don't know why Starks was kicked out. Everyone is still assuming. If the staff still feels comfortable which they do that's why they are recruiting him. I agree with what some of you are saying but if the staff is comfortable with him then I will be. It's not like ND players are saints and all RKGS. I am not saying whatever he did which is assumed to be selling Molly on campus. But once again it's all speculation on why he was kicked out. I'm sure ND knows why and if they are comfortable with him then I am.

Sorry for the rant.

 

[Emcee77]

What drives me nuts is that we don't know why Starks was kicked out. Everyone is still assuming. If the staff still feels comfortable which they do that's why they are recruiting him. I agree with what some of you are saying but if the staff is comfortable with him then I will be. It's not like ND players are saints and all RKGS. I am not saying whatever he did which is assumed to be selling Molly on campus. But once again it's all speculation on why he was kicked out. I'm sure ND knows why and if they are comfortable with him then I am.

Sorry for the rant.

Exactly. The assumption seems to be that it doesn't matter ... he was kicked out of school, so he can't get into ND. As a practical matter I realize that's generally how it goes, but any such blanket rule is totally illogical, at least as applied to a football player who is already drawing extra scrutiny from admissions and other university personnel.

 

[Cackalacky]

What drives me nuts is that we don't know why Starks was kicked out. Everyone is still assuming. If the staff still feels comfortable which they do that's why they are recruiting him. I agree with what some of you are saying but if the staff is comfortable with him then I will be. It's not like ND players are saints and all RKGS. I am not saying whatever he did which is assumed to be selling Molly on campus. But once again it's all speculation on why he was kicked out. I'm sure ND knows why and if they are comfortable with him then I am.

Sorry for the rant.

I have also heard he stole iPads in addition to the drug thing, but nothing I have read indicated he was criminally charged with anything, only kicked out of a private school.

I have not read anything concrete or solid either way. If the coaches are still recruiting him, there must be a reason.

 

[calvegas04]

ND isn't going to take Starks. Move on. The last offense wasn't the first. It simply was the one that put the nail in the coffin so to speak. Multiple offenses.

Yes ND will

 

[STLDomer]

ND isn't going to take Starks. Move on. The last offense wasn't the first. It simply was the one that put the nail in the coffin so to speak. Multiple offenses.

Yes ND will

I don't think either of you guys or any of us here know the definite answer to if ND will take Starks or not.