Making a Murderer (Spoilers)

Veritate Duce Progredi

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Because we honor the justice system? You're the one that would send a man to prison for the rest of his life despite the prosecution not actually proving it. Would you want jurors to do that to you? Do you simply not respect the justice system? The system is in place to make courts fair and without prejudice. Nobody should feel guilty for not sending a man to prison when the state doesn't prove their guilt. It's a constitutional right to have a fair trial.

Again... I hope you never have to have someone with your thought process on a jury for your court case.

The prosecution proved he did it, they didn't prove how he did it. I guess we can keep talking past one another.

NO THEY DIDN'T! That's why this is such a huge story.

Forgive me. I thought a jury was comprised of members who evaluated the evidence and arguments put forth. Further, I thought I was asked how I would've voted if I were a jury member. I didn't realize I'm simply supposed to follow your views on it. This would've been much simpler had you made this known from the beginning.

Not actually knowing HOW someone committed a crime is doubt.



You're understanding of the legal system is poor
.

So your telling me the legal system demands I know, not just that he did it but also a strict chronological timeline of how the crime was committed? Is this +- 10 min increments? How much is required before we can vote guilty?

As to the bold, I think you are attributing something to me which I didn't write? Or perhaps you just didn't grab the original posters name.

No kidding. It doesn't make you feel too good to watch the treatment of Avery and Dassey in the legal system. Then to hear someone say, "Yeah I was on the fence until the final episode at which point I became absolute certain of his guilt because they had all the evidence" is just mind blowing.

It really is sad if that's more than just trying to be a contrarian on a message board.

Your mind is easily blown. Definitely not trying to be a contrarian and I actually expected a more even split on this board. It does give me pause and make me re-evaluate. Perhaps I'm a slow learner and I haven't fully understood these massive loopholes everyone believes exist.

Explain to me how Steve Avery's DNA was on Teresa Halbach's key but none of her own DNA was on the key.

How is that possible without some sort of tampering?

I'm afraid that is outside my realm. I'm not a forensic biologist although I do know how the DNA is tested. Was it stated outright the keys didn't contain Teresa Halbach's DNA? If so, I could devise some theories.

To be certain, by tampering you mean only the type of tampering done to Stephen? We don't believe he did anything to the keys to hide evidence? Is that correct?
 

Blazers46

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I have been a juror 3 times. All three times at least half the jury had made up their minds the person was guilty before opening statements were over. During one trial that got some local publicity all the jurors knew of the case before serving on the jury. The idea is that a person is "innocent until proven guilty", in my experiences, has got lost somewhere. Because if he got arrested and is on trial, he must have done something, right? At least that seems to be how most jurors see things (in my experiences).
 

GATTACA!

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The prosecution proved he did it, they didn't prove how he did it. I guess we can keep talking past one another.

Does this actually make sense when you say it? They didn't prove where he killed her, they didn't prove how he killed her, they didn't prove where he burned her, they didn't prove that she was sexually assaulted, they didnt prove when the murder happened.....

What exactly did they prove?? There are massive holes in the case all over the place. Same with the Adnan Syed case, he very well could be guilty, but based on the case built against him there is no way he should have been convicted.
 
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woolybug25

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The prosecution proved he did it, they didn't prove how he did it. I guess we can keep talking past one another.

As Gattaca posted above, does that even sound right when you say it? You feel there was evidence that pointed to him, I get it... but they literally do not prove what actually took place. It is the burden of the prosecution to prove "beyond reasonable doubt" which has a definition.

The requirement that the prosecution prove beyond a reasonable doubt every element of a crime in order to convict a defendant is no exception. The burden of proof imposed on the prosecution and the presumption of innocence granted every defendant are based on the "Due Process" Clauses of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments.

EXAMPLE (1) Frank is accused of burglary in Midstate. According to Midstate statute, burglary consists of “breaking and entering into the dwelling of another at night with the intent to commit a felony therein.” The Due Process Clause requires that in order for Frank to be convicted of the crime, the prosecution must prove every element of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt. Therefore, if the prosecution can only show by the preponderance of the evidence that Frank’s alleged crime happened at night (they cannot prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, what time he broke in), even if the prosecution has a hundred witnesses, videotape and Frank's confession that all show that he broke and entered into the dwelling of another with the intent to commit a felony therein, a jury cannot convict Frank of burglary
.
Burden of Proof and Presumption of Innocence

I don't know if you are unintentionally mixing up "preponderance of evidence" with "beyond reasonable doubt", but we aren't talking past eachother. Your thoughts on it being okay that they don't know how the crime happened is simply incorrect.

Forgive me. I thought a jury was comprised of members who evaluated the evidence and arguments put forth. Further, I thought I was asked how I would've voted if I were a jury member. I didn't realize I'm simply supposed to follow your views on it. This would've been much simpler had you made this known from the beginning.

No one is saying that you have to think he was innocent, there's plenty of people on here not getting ragged on for that belief. What people are taking issue with is that you seemingly don't want to follow constitutional law and would ignore court instruction to put a man in prison simply on your gut feeling.

So your telling me the legal system demands I know, not just that he did it but also a strict chronological timeline of how the crime was committed? Is this +- 10 min increments? How much is required before we can vote guilty?

The time is certainly subjective, what is not is the fact that a timeline does need to occur. That's why the defense painted a picture of a timeline of events in both cases (albeit completely different stories in each case for the same crime). That again, is part of proving guilt above reasonable doubt. If you cannot put the person at the scene of the crime, show that the crime actually was committed and in this case... prove that the person being charged committed the act willfully, deliberately and with premeditation... then you cannot convict. See the example above. Do some research for yourself, if you like. We make prosecutors prove guilt in this country.


Your mind is easily blown. Definitely not trying to be a contrarian and I actually expected a more even split on this board. It does give me pause and make me re-evaluate. Perhaps I'm a slow learner and I haven't fully understood these massive loopholes everyone believes exist.

It's not loopholes... it's constitutional right and rule of law. Pretty simple.


I'm afraid that is outside my realm. I'm not a forensic biologist although I do know how the DNA is tested. Was it stated outright the keys didn't contain Teresa Halbach's DNA? If so, I could devise some theories.

YOU DON'T CONVICT PEOPLE ON "THEORIES"...
 
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Senoj13

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I guess I have been living under a rock the last few years. Just got done watching this documentary and listening to the podcast "Serial" in the last two week's and knew nothing about either crime. This was helpful since I came into both with a clean slate. I won't comment on Serial since I don't want to ruin it for anyone who hasn't listened to it yet but its much like Making a Murderer.

After finishing all 10 episodes the only thing I am really sure of is that this girl was not killed in his trailer or garage and that evidence was planted. Other than that, I can't determine what else happened based on what was presented.

For those who listened to Serial, would be interested in someone creating a discussion thread for that topic as well.
 

Booslum31

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Explain to me how Steve Avery's DNA was on Teresa Halbach's key but none of her own DNA was on the key.

How is that possible without some sort of tampering?

This is what got me really thinking that a bunch of the evidence was planted. I also thought that I heard that the bullet in the garage had Teresa's "DNA Material" on it but they couldn't determine that it was DNA from blood. No way in my opinion that she was murdered in that garage.
 

woolybug25

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This is what got me really thinking that a bunch of the evidence was planted. I also thought that I heard that the bullet in the garage had Teresa's "DNA Material" on it but they couldn't determine that it was DNA from blood. No way in my opinion that she was murdered in that garage.

What's worse is Brendan's case, where they argued that she was chained to a bed and stabbed multiple times inside Steven's home. Yet there was zero dna evidence in the home. The freaking house had carpet and the mattress was still there. Unreal.
 

IrishSteelhead

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Watching the show, I honestly don't think a character (real or fiction) has made my blood boil as much as Ken Kratz. From his pussy-ass voice on, I immediately hated that guy. If I ever see that fat pile of puke, he is getting punched in the vagina.
 

Who'saWildManNow

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What's worse is Brendan's case, where they argued that she was chained to a bed and stabbed multiple times inside Steven's home. Yet there was zero dna evidence in the home. The freaking house had carpet and the mattress was still there. Unreal.

What happened with this kid honestly breaks my heart. At his level intellectually and socially it's not surprising he ended up where he is, all the while having no clue the seriousness of the whole situation.

Fassbender and Weigert knew they would eventually break this kid and that's why after 4+ attempts of questioning and him denying any involvement they never let up.

They drew right from the confession handbook and manipulated the shit out of this kid. And all while he had NO legal representation.. Not even his mother.

What sold me on his innocence was noticing the difference between his demeanor with the scumbag detectives and when he was on the stand.

With Assbender and Weigert he paused, looked down, sounded confused and guessed at everything he thought they wanted to hear. Because they reassured him that if he told them what they wanted hear he'd be ok. Proven by the fact that he thought he'd be able to confess to a murder and get back to 6th period. The kids was taken advantage of.

While he was on the stand and both lawyers questioned him he was confident, straightforward and firm on the idea that he had no involvement and what he said was made up. It was a simple truth he could handle. He didn't have to think, it was the truth. There was no slow wheels turning.

My heart really broke when he said "I just want to go home.". I believe this kids life was unfairly snatched from his arms.

I'm not entirely sure his uncle didn't commit murder but I believe the prosecution and Manitowoc police were involved in a framing
 

Booslum31

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What happened with this kid honestly breaks my heart. At his level intellectually and socially it's not surprising he ended up where he is, all the while having no clue the seriousness of the whole situation.

Fassbender and Weigert knew they would eventually break this kid and that's why after 4+ attempts of questioning and him denying any involvement they never let up.

They drew right from the confession handbook and manipulated the shit out of this kid. And all while he had NO legal representation.. Not even his mother.

What sold me on his innocence was noticing the difference between his demeanor with the scumbag detectives and when he was on the stand.

With Assbender and Weigert he paused, looked down, sounded confused and guessed at everything he thought they wanted to hear. Because they reassured him that if he told them what they wanted hear he'd be ok. Proven by the fact that he thought he'd be able to confess to a murder and get back to 6th period. The kids was taken advantage of.

While he was on the stand and both lawyers questioned him he was confident, straightforward and firm on the idea that he had no involvement and what he said was made up. It was a simple truth he could handle. He didn't have to think, it was the truth. There was no slow wheels turning.

My heart really broke when he said "I just want to go home.". I believe this kids life was unfairly snatched from his arms.

I'm not entirely sure his uncle didn't commit murder but I believe the prosecution and Manitowoc police were involved in a framing

I felt horrible for the kid. He got shatty representation. And you are right....he had no idea of the seriousness of the situation. He thought he'd be back in school that day to finish his project and then though he'd be home in time to watch Wrestle Mania. wow!
 

bkess8

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Finished the season this evening. Time to read through the treat and do a little looking around on the Internet and then I will post some thoughts and responses.
 

NDinL.A.

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Just finished watching with my wife. We've been horrified throughout. It's maddening how crooked and ass-backwards that place was/is, from the lowly deputy all the way to the DA and to the Supreme Court, and way too many people in between.

Everything has already been said. Mind-blowing, the corruption is. But man, we felt even worse for Brandon Dassey. The fact that he can't even get a trial, (backed my some truly awesome lawyers!) just shows how corrupt their system is. Unreal.

Great show!
 

IrishLax

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I don't know if Steve Avery killed her, but I'm 99% sure at least some evidence was planted against him... and I'm 100% sure that Brendan Dassey is only guilty of being stupid.

I seriously have no fucking clue how someone that clearly innocent is in jail. There's literally no chance at all that the "confession" they used to put him away could've possibly happened, and if that's the only evidence even implicating him then you have to acquit. I can understand how you find Steve Avery guilty, but I seriously cannot fathom being in that jury room and voting to send Dassey to jail.
 
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Irish#1

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Dateline NBC will air a special on the Investigation Discovery channel (Comcast 1232). Not sure of the night it airs, but I believe it's tonight.
 

phork

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Possible new evidence that backs up that Avery was framed

'Making a Murderer': Teresa Halbach keys - Business Insider

My only issue with that is, the key that was found had a clip on it: \

1452461300780


Could easily snapped off or taken off. Essentially no way to prove what happened to it from that picture above via Reddit sleuths and when the key was found..
 

Circa

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If he didn't do it, this goes way beyond Avery vs Manitowoc County. I believe the FBI had to be behind part of it too in order to screw up the test samples. The FBI just didn't seem too concerned about the case during the trial, they almost seemed annoyed to be there.

Also, anyone from Wisconsin that can recall this trial at the time it was going on? Curious to know if it was a big deal in Wisconsin or if it was just another case that had a small article in the newspaper.

I wasn't there for any of this kind of stuff but I will say If anyone has ever spent more than a week up there they would see rather quickly, they are a close knit type of people for the most part. They are very aware of what the neighbors are doing and when they are doing It. It's a serene type of place with friendly people and simple people also. Don't get me wrong, they are one of a kind and remind me of canadians. I would have loved the attention when I was young and I am sure there is more to the whole story that was left out of this documentary. Steven seems a bit off from the get go and I would lend relationships made before the first murder is something.
 

FightingIrishLover7

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My fiancé and I just finished the show.

I was very underwhelmed. I knew absolutely nothing going into the show regarding specific details. I only knew there was a guy that was claiming to be framed by the law enforcement. (I didn't even know he was in prison for rape for 18 years before getting released).

I thought the show did a poor job in remaining unbiased. They are clearly in favor of Steven. They attempted to show some of his weaknesses, in order to appear unbiased, but I'm not buying it.

The one instance in particular that drove me nuts is how hard they focused on the "hypodermic needle hole". They made that out to be their smoking gun, but not once in the show did they mention (or admit) that it's perfectly normal to inject blood samples into tubes via needle. Sure the tape removal is suspicious, but you have to make not of the fact the hole doesn't prove anything was removed.

Its clear they purposefully didn't mention that in order to draw more suspense and fuel the theory for framing.

Overall, I felt like the show was nothing more than a longer version of Dateline NBC. Better quality, but similar effect. I definitely don't see how this show is being called "ground breaking".
 

NorthDakota

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For the guys that watched it, do you think Avery actually killed her? It's pretty clear he shouldn't have been convicted, but it is definitely up in there air if he actually did it.

I don't know anything anymore.

I think it'd be interesting to add a poll to this thread.

In your gut, is Steven guilty?
In your gut, is Brendan guilty?
If you were on the jury, would you vote Steven guilty?
If you were on the jury, would you vote Brendan guilty?

I think these are two completely different issues and I'm curious what people think.

1. No, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did do it.
2. No
3. Hell no. Too much weird stuff going on to not have reasonable doubt.
4. Lol wut. No. Get this bro out. Maybe he can make a guest appearance on Wrestlemania.

Watching the show, I honestly don't think a character (real or fiction) has made my blood boil as much as Ken Kratz. From his pussy-ass voice on, I immediately hated that guy. If I ever see that fat pile of puke, he is getting punched in the vagina.

Ken Kratz sucks.
 

GowerND11

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I can't say for sure if I think Avery is innocent, but I do believe he is not guilty as the case presents it. It is certainly plausible that Theresa was killed somewhere else, the police found her, and decided to plant a plethora of circumstantial evidence on Avery. I wouldn't be shocked if this were true.

I would also not be terribly surprised if I found out that Avery did commit the murder, but my gut still tells me this isn't the case at all. This is why I do believe, given the gross misconduct by the sheriff's office, that he was framed for an easy conviction. I could never as a juror have decided to give a guilty verdict.
 

NorthDakota

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....Oh goodness that picture gave me the willies. I bet within 5-10 years they have a major motion picture with Bradley Cooper and the other guy from the hangover...the dentist guy...starring as the defense team. Come to think of it, Zach GalICantSpellHisNamekis could probably rock the Steven Avery role.

lets get the wolfpack back together once we get this figured out.
 

Rocket89

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Notice how that story links to their other story on the "missing evidence" from the documentary and it's just a regurgitation of the original BS story that came out after Ken Kratz complained weeks ago? One of the items is about the cat burning, which was definitely in the doc, yet this stuff keeps getting recirculated over and over.
 

Emcee77

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I am 6 or 7 episodes in. What a crazy case. I really didn't want to watch it because it's too much like work, but my friends keep begging me to watch because they know I used to work on post-conviction petitions pretty regularly, so I gave it a shot. It really is pretty nuts. I've seen a fair amount of police misconduct in my short legal career, but what happened to Avery on the Beerntsen case is pretty nuts.

Btw, I saw Beerntsen speak at an event on wrongful convictions at Northwestern Law School. It was fascinating. She basically said there may have been a conspiracy, she has no idea ... she just knows that she wasn't consciously a part of it at all. She really believed with her whole heart and mind that Steven Avery was the guy who attacked her, and she felt incredibly horrible and guilty when she learned the truth. Apparently she speaks about the case regularly to try and raise awareness of eyewitness unreliability.

I'll reserve judgment until I finish the series, but one thing I'll say is that the prosecution does not have to prove, as some posters seem to think, that every detail of their theory is true. The prosecution has to adduce evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Steven Avery is the killer. The theory it offers to the jurors is just to assist them in making sense of the evidence, i.e. the facts. The jurors are free to completely reconstruct and reframe the evidence to fit a different theory, as long as the evidence supports that theory.

So a juror could reasonably say, look, the car was found on Avery's property; he specifically requested (using a false name) that she and no other photographer come to the Avery property to photograph the van; he called her three times that day, twice using Star 67 to hide his identity because he had creeped her out on earlier visits to the Avery property to photograph vehicles, as she had told colleagues; they found a bullet fired from Avery's gun with Halbach's DNA on it in his garage; they found her burned bones in his fire pit; etc. etc. (I won't recite all the evidence). I don't know exactly how it all went down, but the guy's defense is that it's all a conspiracy? So how did it go down? Without a plausible alternative theory, supported by evidence, any alleged conspiracy would be too elaborate to be plausible.

(Some of the above evidence isn't in the documentary. After reading this about how the show is biased, I started reading this rebuttal website:
http://www.newstalk1130.com/onair/c...7717/rebutting-a-murderer-episode-1-14260554/
The rebuttal website is equally biased, but having the view of both sides is helpful.)

Just to be clear, when I say "I" above, I am not saying that I, Emcee, personally subscribe to the view I've described. I just want to say that I do think that a juror would be entitled to reach that conclusion. Like, if I were an appellate court judge and Avery's lawyer on appeal raised a sufficiency of the evidence argument, the conviction would stand. (Avery's best shot is working on his constitutional issues/prosecutorial and police misconduct arguments, although he doesn't have a lot of proof, that I've seen, that would really invalidate the conviction in a post-conviction hearing.)

For me the real value of shows like Making a Murderer and Serial is not to prove a particular person's innocence. I don't think a preponderance of the evidence shows that either Steven Avery (same disclaimer, not done with the show yet) or Adnan Syed is innocent. But, especially with Syed, there was no way there was proof beyond a reasonable doubt at trial. And now, there is not much we can do about it. Our system is, you get one shot to defend yourself by introducing evidence at trial. If you don't succeed, the record is closed, and you are stuck with that record unless there is some newly discovered evidence you couldn't reasonably have found at the time. That's pretty harsh, really. One chance, or you lose a lifetime of freedom.
 

IrishLax

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I am 6 or 7 episodes in. What a crazy case. I really didn't want to watch it because it's too much like work, but my friends keep begging me to watch because they know I used to work on post-conviction petitions pretty regularly, so I gave it a shot. It really is pretty nuts. I've seen a fair amount of police misconduct in my short legal career, but what happened to Avery on the Beerntsen case is pretty nuts.

Btw, I saw Beerntsen speak at an event on wrongful convictions at Northwestern Law School. It was fascinating. She basically said there may have been a conspiracy, she has no idea ... she just knows that she wasn't consciously a part of it at all. She really believed with her whole heart and mind that Steven Avery was the guy who attacked her, and she felt incredibly horrible and guilty when she learned the truth. Apparently she speaks about the case regularly to try and raise awareness of eyewitness unreliability.

I'll reserve judgment until I finish the series, but one thing I'll say is that the prosecution does not have to prove, as some posters seem to think, that every detail of their theory is true. The prosecution has to adduce evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Steven Avery is the killer. The theory it offers to the jurors is just to assist them in making sense of the evidence, i.e. the facts. The jurors are free to completely reconstruct and reframe the evidence to fit a different theory, as long as the evidence supports that theory.

So a juror could reasonably say, look, the car was found on Avery's property; he specifically requested (using a false name) that she and no other photographer come to the Avery property to photograph the van; he called her three times that day, twice using Star 67 to hide his identity because he had creeped her out on earlier visits to the Avery property to photograph vehicles, as she had told colleagues; they found a bullet fired from Avery's gun with Halbach's DNA on it in his garage; they found her burned bones in his fire pit; etc. etc. (I won't recite all the evidence). I don't know exactly how it all went down, but the guy's defense is that it's all a conspiracy? So how did it go down? Without a plausible alternative theory, supported by evidence, any alleged conspiracy would be too elaborate to be plausible.

(Some of the above evidence isn't in the documentary. After reading this about how the show is biased, I started reading this rebuttal website:
http://www.newstalk1130.com/onair/c...7717/rebutting-a-murderer-episode-1-14260554/
The rebuttal website is equally biased, but having the view of both sides is helpful.)

Just to be clear, when I say "I" above, I am not saying that I, Emcee, personally subscribe to the view I've described. I just want to say that I do think that a juror would be entitled to reach that conclusion. Like, if I were an appellate court judge and Avery's lawyer on appeal raised a sufficiency of the evidence argument, the conviction would stand. (Avery's best shot is working on his constitutional issues/prosecutorial and police misconduct arguments, although he doesn't have a lot of proof, that I've seen, that would really invalidate the conviction in a post-conviction hearing.)

For me the real value of shows like Making a Murderer and Serial is not to prove a particular person's innocence. I don't think a preponderance of the evidence shows that either Steven Avery (same disclaimer, not done with the show yet) or Adnan Syed is innocent. But, especially with Syed, there was no way there was proof beyond a reasonable doubt at trial. And now, there is not much we can do about it. Our system is, you get one shot to defend yourself by introducing evidence at trial. If you don't succeed, the record is closed, and you are stuck with that record unless there is some newly discovered evidence you couldn't reasonably have found at the time. That's pretty harsh, really. One chance, or you lose a lifetime of freedom.

Re-linking from above, but this is a theory I find far more plausible than anything the prosecution or "evidence" suggests: Genius 'Making a Murderer' Fan Theory Ties Up Loose Ends - Beyond the Tube - Zimbio

I guess my big issue isn't whether or not Steve Avery is guilty, because he definitely could be guilty. It's that Brandon Dassey doesn't have a shred of physical evidence implicating him in any crime, and got bullied/coerced into giving a bunch of made-up, conflicting statements that somehow equivocate to a "confession." That's complete garbage to me.
 
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