Rumored Violations

[JughedJones]

So you are saying they did cheat?

Not at all. Didn't mean it to come out that way.

But ND has made it clear that they will be taking, even the perception of cheating, very seriously.

 

[NDdomer2]

I get this sentiment but if you took the position knowing what can possibly happen then you have no grounds. Welcome to the real world.

I get my days off cancelled; life happens. In fact, I am only entitled to 1 day off every pay period (2 weeks).

I understand that they took the responsibility. But they are still young and maybe don't have jobs. So is ND demanding the parents fly them in early? What if tickets have already been purchased. Does ND pay the change flight fees etc?

I would hope in today's technology that we could just get these kids on video conference if they were needed that desperately.

 

[absoluteirish59]

When was DaVaris' first academic issue ever referred to as a scandal? He simply didn't make grades.

The media already tries hard enough to lump unassociated things together to make us look worse than we are. We don't need to do it too.

Look I'm not the enemy pal. I'm a 3rd generation die hard ND fan. My 3 year old son will be the 4th generation.
All I'm saying is that it is disappointing having these issues put out there depicting this university in an unfavorable light. ND haters are hating more than ever because this is one area where previously we could not be judged. There was nothing to judge!

 

[NDohio]

I understand that they took the responsibility. But they are still young and maybe don't have jobs. So is ND demanding the parents fly them in early? What if tickets have already been purchased. Does ND pay the change flight fees etc?

I would hope in today's technology that we could just get these kids on video conference if they were needed that desperately.

Or do have jobs and want to fulfill their work obligation before heading to school.

And yes - change fees for airfare has become a ridiculous.

 

[NDdomer2]

Look I'm not the enemy pal. I'm a 3rd generation die hard ND fan. My 3 year old son will be the 4th generation.
All I'm saying is that it is disappointing having these issues put out there depicting this university in an unfavorable light. ND haters are hating more than ever because this is one area where previously we could not be judged. There was nothing to judge!

so are you a fan of ND or are you fan of IW, KVR, DD, Moore? Because the only slip SO FAR the university has done is created this to be larger than it possibly is.

I think you can be proud when you tell your 4th generation fan that ND chose to stand up for academics, honesty, and integrity.

 

[Bugzly21]

The bar has been set. I think ND now has to have a national press conference any time it is looking at any student for academic dishonesty.

Really, IMO, I don't think a press conference was supposed to happen. I think the way it blew up on the Internet put the University in a bind. I mean just look at the first 4 pages of this thread and what happened in an hour just on this board. Then think all the other ND boards and different outlets that were going crazy. Whoever in administration that leaked out forced the hand. The presses was for damage control. You could tell by how uncomfortable and unprepared Fr Jenkins looked and sounded. I don't think it was intended to really have the players names come out but with the way ND is covered it would because they're missing from practice.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

so are you a fan of ND or are you fan of IW, KVR, DD, Moore? Because the only slip SO FAR the university has done is created this to be larger than it possibly is.

I think you can be proud when you tell your 4th generation fan that ND chose to stand up for academics, honesty, and integrity.

I am beginning to believe that is the only reason for the PC in the first place, and that it added fuel to the fire. None of this do I blame on Jenkins, Swarbrick, or Kelly. Nor do I blame it on Notre Dame, generally.

 

[absoluteirish59]

so are you a fan of ND or are you fan of IW, KVR, DD, Moore? Because the only slip SO FAR the university has done is created this to be larger than it possibly is.

I think you can be proud when you tell your 4th generation fan that ND chose to stand up for academics, honesty, and integrity.

I am an ND fan. I expect ND to always do the right thing. I believe they have.

 

[Bugzly21]

I am an ND fan. I expect ND to always do the right thing. I believe they have.

Couldn't agree more. I'm proud of ND for putting Integrity above all else. I mean they could be like Stoops who talks about assault on women is unacceptable while at the same time petition to get DGB eligible.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I am an ND fan. I expect ND to always do the right thing. I believe they have.

I am an ND fan. Life isn't as easy as being able to always do the right thing, so I practice forgiveness. I don't know enough about what actually happened to express an opinion.

 

[Bugzly21]

I think Daniels is at least going to be cleared. There is no way his dad is gonna come out as much as he has about this in DD's defense. People can say "that's what dads are supposed to do". Which is true, the first time. He's already had to have his back once. Now if DD tells him he's innocent and is lying to him and it comes out he's guilty, as a father myself I wouldn't want to be in DDs shoes. I would fuck my son up for lying to me about this with what he just went through.

 

[NDdomer2]

I am an ND fan. I expect ND to always do the right thing. I believe they have.

don't get me wrong, the kids failing/cheating bothers me too. but they are individuals who are choosing to make those decisions so I am not associating them with the university as a whole.

 

[connor_in]

So now we just wait...and wait...and wait...

 

[Ndaccountant]

So now we just wait...and wait...and wait...

 

[Irish Insanity]

Am I the only one disappointed that all we here about is the academic side. I mean there was sexually favors up for trade here allegedly. This story is falling short of its initial billing.

 

[ACamp1900]

don't get me wrong, the kids failing/cheating bothers me too. but they are individuals who are choosing to make those decisions so I am not associating them with the university as a whole.

My thing is this... Is ND holding these players to higher standards (in comparison to just about anyone) if they sit them for a few games and watch them like hawks moving forward??... Or is committing football Hara-kiri the only real option in terms of higher standards?

 

[mooneytostle]

Am I the only one disappointed that all we here about is the academic side. I mean there was sexually favors up for trade here allegedly. This story is falling short of its initial billing.

I honestly wondered if they would shut the program down temporarily when i first heard the rumors that there were 20-25 players implicated in a sex-for-papers scandal. Pretty ridiculous how rumors fly off the handle nowadays. Last night when I saw on twitter the buzz about Braxton Miller I became immediately interested and started searching around for 3-5 minutes, only to then remind myself that there is no way anyone knows if he is out for the season (didn't have the MRI until today). Always best to not waste time trying to get the scoop b/c 90% of what is out there is likely made up these days.

 

[gkIrish]

Am I the only one disappointed that all we here about is the academic side. I mean there was sexually favors up for trade here allegedly. This story is falling short of its initial billing.

The odds that you will ever hear an ND official publicly acknowledge any sexual aspect of this investigation is extremely low.

 

[Booslum31]

My thing is this... Is ND holding these players to higher standards (in comparison to just about anyone) if they sit them for a few games and watch them like hawks moving forward??... Or is committing football Hara-kiri the only real option in terms of higher standards?

Not quite sure I follow your question. My thought is that the players should be treated (and penalized) like any other student at ND who did the same thing. Right?

 

[koonja]

Seems like the alleged sex rumors are separate incident(s) from this email/paper issue.

We should stop talking about a sex scandal until there's a reason to think there is one. JMO.

 

[ACamp1900]

No, I am saying they are so far removed from the norm that they can move much closer to it, while still bascially setting the national standard for things like this. Maybe there are schools that take these steps that I am not aware of. Just thinking out loud.

 

[RDU Irish]

I'm thinking admin is wrestling with this pretty good. The actual offense of cheating probably doesn't play out that bad historically but damn if they don't want to lower the hammer due to this sexual element that especially pisses them off since they can't call it out publicly. Those emails must be one enormous case of death by a thousand paper cuts.

 

[Irish Insanity]

I was completely kidding with the sex scandal part. I didn't think italics were necessary. I'm glad it's moved away from that and the focus has been put on the academic side.

 

[Jerry]

I think Daniels is at least going to be cleared. There is no way his dad is gonna come out as much as he has about this in DD's defense. People can say "that's what dads are supposed to do". Which is true, the first time. He's already had to have his back once. Now if DD tells him he's innocent and is lying to him and it comes out he's guilty, as a father myself I wouldn't want to be in DDs shoes. I would fuck my son up for lying to me about this with what he just went through.

I hope you're right. But who knows what's in these emails going back 2 years. I've helped my daughter with HS papers just changing sentence structure and sometimes I wonder if she even notices everything I've changed. If they have record of DD sending someone a paper and them sending it back with 50 changes is that somebody writing the paper for you? I'm not sure where they draw the line these days because it's so easy to edit somebody else's work.

 

[Big23Head]

Put this in the Fall camp thread as well:

Anna reporting from multiple sources she was told KVR was in positional meeting this morning but the other 3 were not.

 

[Emcee77]

I hope you're right. But who knows what's in these emails going back 2 years. I've helped my daughter with HS papers just changing sentence structure and sometimes I wonder if she even notices everything I've changed. If they have record of DD sending someone a paper and them sending it back with 50 changes is that somebody writing the paper for you? I'm not sure where they draw the line these days because it's so easy to edit somebody else's work.

Yep, I have the same problem with our summer interns. They send me a first draft of an order, which is shitty, and I try to show them how to make it better, and their second and third drafts are still shitty, and then I keep suggesting edits until before long I've basically written the order myself. It really is hard not to do too much of the work yourself, even unintentionally, when the person you are trying to help just isn't getting it. I too am wondering if maybe that's the kind of thing that went on here.

And the weirdest thing is that they seem not even to notice the edits I've made. I had one ask me if he could use the order as a writing sample. It was all I could do not to come back with, "How much of your writing do you think remains in this document?"

The lack of facts is frustrating right now. I keep clicking on this thread hoping for info, but it doesn't seem like any is going to be forthcoming anytime soon. Hope I'm wrong about that.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I hope you're right. But who knows what's in these emails going back 2 years. I've helped my daughter with HS papers just changing sentence structure and sometimes I wonder if she even notices everything I've changed. If they have record of DD sending someone a paper and them sending it back with 50 changes is that somebody writing the paper for you? I'm not sure where they draw the line these days because it's so easy to edit somebody else's work.

The academic fraud at issue here is allegedly plagiarism, and what you've just described doesn't even come close:

1. Uses words, ideas, or work products
2. Attributable to another identifiable person or source
3. Without attributing the work to the source from which it was obtained
4. In a situation in which there is a legitimate expectation of original authorship
5. In order to obtain some benefit, credit, or gain which need not be monetary

The vast majority of written work turned in by undergrads isn't original research, so the bar for plagiarism is pretty high. Unless a student simply copies and pastes large portions into his work without proper accreditation, there's usually no problem.

Having a tutor edit one's paper isn't problematic either, as long as they're editing original content, and not straight-up rewriting the whole thing for you. But even then, as long they're remaining faithful to the original content, it would be hard to get dinged for it.

In other words, plagiarism isn't usually a very nuanced issue in undergrad. You either ripped it off of wikipedia directly, or you wrote it yourself. Most "shades of gray" in there won't get you in trouble either.

 

[mooneytostle]

The academic fraud at issue here is allegedly plagiarism, and what you've just described doesn't even come close

I don't think that is true. I believe it is an issue of a student editing (or possibly going well beyond editing and actually doing significant writing) players' papers.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I don't think that is true. I believe it is an issue of a student editing (or possibly going well beyond editing and actually doing significant writing) players' papers.

What you've put in parentheses there is a form of plagiarism-- passing another's work off as your own. "Editing", under any reasonable definition of the word, doesn't even come close.

If the tutor at issue was generating a significant amount of original content for the athlete, that's plagiarism. If the tutor was simply altering that athlete's original content, even significantly, that's editing.

My understanding is that actual plagiarism is typically easy to detect, and easily distinguished from editing. Practically speaking, there's not much of a gray area here.

 

[JughedJones]

I don't think that is true. I believe it is an issue of a student editing (or possibly going well beyond editing and actually doing significant writing) players' papers.

I believe that's plagiarism.