Game of Thrones - Season Four

[johnnycando]

GRRM really needs to put down social media, stop writing prequel novellas, stop going to cons, and just finish the fucking books. My greatest fear is that he either dies before finishing them, or the show catches and passes the books.

The show won't/can't.

A cold north wind can't be caught.

Nor avoided, brother.

 

[GUknights75]

Hahaha these are some of my recent faves

Edit: fixed it

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

The show won't/can't.

A cold north wind can't be caught.

Nor avoided, brother.

I don't know what you mean by "can't" but David Benioff and Dan Weiss know how the story is supposed to wrap up. Unless there is some contractual agreement that I don't know of I'm pretty sure the show can pass the books if GRRM isn't timely in getting the last two out.

Maybe that isn't what you meant.

 

[mgriff]

D&D know how it ends but for a TV show to pass a two decade long book saga would ruin GRRM's magnum opus. As a reader I can't wrap my head around a TV show spoiling a book series for me. GRRM's pace makes this a very real possibility, but every logical bone in my body screams that it can't happen, but it's GRRM...

 

[gkIrish]

I'd bet that GRRM has contracted with someone to write whatever remains if he dies and told them the major plot points.

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

D&D know how it ends but for a TV show to pass a two decade long book saga would ruin GRRM's magnum opus. As a reader I can't wrap my head around a TV show spoiling a book series for me. GRRM's pace makes this a very real possibility, but every logical bone in my body screams that it can't happen, but it's GRRM...

No doubt. I would be devastated

 

[johnnycando]

I don't know what you mean by "can't" but David Benioff and Dan Weiss know how the story is supposed to wrap up. Unless there is some contractual agreement that I don't know of I'm pretty sure the show can pass the books if GRRM isn't timely in getting the last two out.

Maybe that isn't what you meant.

Wanna pull out our peters, compare length?

Don't tell me you "can't."

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

Wanna pull out our peters, compare length?

Don't tell me you "can't."

You have Skype?

 

[johnnycando]

You have Skype?

I'm swinging Valryian steel.

 

[ACamp1900]

D&D know how it ends but for a TV show to pass a two decade long book saga would ruin GRRM's magnum opus. As a reader I can't wrap my head around a TV show spoiling a book series for me. GRRM's pace makes this a very real possibility, but every logical bone in my body screams that it can't happen, but it's GRRM...

They'll catch p to the books, and either take a pause or make major films...

 

[peoriairish]

So have some of you been following this series since 1996 and are still waiting for it to be done? Yikes. That must be the biggest blue balls ever.

 

[GATTACA!]

I don't know what you mean by "can't" but David Benioff and Dan Weiss know how the story is supposed to wrap up. Unless there is some contractual agreement that I don't know of I'm pretty sure the show can pass the books if GRRM isn't timely in getting the last two out.

Maybe that isn't what you meant.

Well you figure

Book#1=Season#1
Book#2=Season#2
Book#3=Seasons#3&4
Books#4&#5=Seasons#5 and #6 possibly #7 depending on pace

So from the end of this season there will be approximately 3 years before the show catches up to the end of aDwD. That should be more than enough time to get tWoW out. Assuming that books around 1000 pages that's probably two seasons. Two years for GRRM to write the whole last book? Idk seems unlikely to me. I'm also not convinced he will ultimately end at 7 books, he seems to really love the world he has created. Also stating publicly that aDwD didn't cover as much as he would have liked. Adding more to 6 thus adding more to 7, or simply adding an 8th IMO.

I'm swinging Valryian steel.

I'm hung like hodor.

 

[johnnycando]

^
Hodor!
Bwhahaha.

 

[wizards8507]

I'd bet that GRRM has contracted with someone to write whatever remains if he dies and told them the major plot points.

Incorrect. GRRM has specifically said that no one will be allowed to finish ASOIAF or even write anything in his world if he were to die.

Well you figure

Book#1=Season#1
Book#2=Season#2
Book#3=Seasons#3&4
Books#4=Seasons#5 and possibly #7 depending on pace

That timeline is off. For example, we don't even meet Reek until book 5 but he's already been featured heavily in the show. Season 3 was stretched out in order to split the Red Wedding and the Purple Wedding into two different seasons, but I don't see the lag continuing. I wouldn't be surprised if Dany's arc, for example, becomes HIGHLY condensed.

 

[greyhammer90]

Incorrect. GRRM has specifically said that no one will be allowed to finish ASOIAF or even write anything in his world if he were to die.



That timeline is off. For example, we don't even meet Reek until book 5 but he's already been featured heavily in the show. Season 3 was stretched out in order to split the Red Wedding and the Purple Wedding into two different seasons, but I don't see the lag continuing. I wouldn't be surprised if Dany's arc, for example, becomes HIGHLY condensed.

Can you provide a link? I can't believe that a publishing company or HBO would allow this from an obese old man.

 

[Emcee77]

GRRM really needs to put down social media, stop writing prequel novellas, stop going to cons, and just finish the fucking books. My greatest fear is that he either dies before finishing them, or the show catches and passes the books.

Totally. I try to tell myself that by writing the prequel novellas, he is working out the material he needs as a foundation for certain elements of the last books of the Game of Thrones series. Erecting a scaffolding to help him put the finishing touches to the upper sections of the edifice of the Game of Thrones series, if you like. I won't give concrete examples in this non-spoiler thread, but let's just say that Tolkien didn't write Lord of the Rings until he'd written a draft of the Silmarillion.

I don't know what you mean by "can't" but David Benioff and Dan Weiss know how the story is supposed to wrap up. Unless there is some contractual agreement that I don't know of I'm pretty sure the show can pass the books if GRRM isn't timely in getting the last two out.

Yeah, I seem to recall reading that Weiss and Benioff know the ending and aren't afraid to pass the books or divert from the books. (Even some of the cast members know the ending. Alfie Allen (Theon/Reek) has said that he's spoken with GRRM about it.)

So from the end of this season there will be approximately 3 years before the show catches up to the end of aDwD. That should be more than enough time to get tWoW out. Assuming that books around 1000 pages that's probably two seasons. Two years for GRRM to write the whole last book? Idk seems unlikely to me. I'm also not convinced he will ultimately end at 7 books, he seems to really love the world he has created. Also stating publicly that aDwD didn't cover as much as he would have liked. Adding more to 6 thus adding more to 7, or simply adding an 8th IMO.

Yeah, it is hard to believe that he will finish the series before the show gets to season 7 if his writing continues at about the same pace that it has been going. My hope is that the knowledge that the show might pass him will light a fire under his ass. He can't want the show to diverge too much from his books since he is so jealously protective of his world (won't let another author finish the series even if he dies, etc.).

 

[IrishLion]

That timeline is off. For example, we don't even meet Reek until book 5 but he's already been featured heavily in the show. Season 3 was stretched out in order to split the Red Wedding and the Purple Wedding into two different seasons, but I don't see the lag continuing. I wouldn't be surprised if Dany's arc, for example, becomes HIGHLY condensed.

Season 1, 2011 - Book 1
Season 2, 2012 - Book 2
Season 3, 2013 - Book 3
Season 4, 2014 - Book 3
Season 5, 2015 - Book 4/5
Season 6, 2015 - Book 4/5
Season 7, 2016 - Book 6?????
Season 8, 2017 - Book 6?????
Season 9, 2018 - Book 7?????

If the HBO writers can turn AFfC and ADwD into two seasons without drawing Dany's story out too much, that would give GRRM until early 2016 to get "The Winds of Winter" out. Dany's storyline is the biggest issue, and condensing it makes sense because of the way things work, but I also think there is still enough badass material in book 5 to draw it out. You could condense Dany's storline, but show way less of her per episode, taking us to 2016. And I assume that TWoW will be substantial enough for another two seasons on HBO, giving him until early 2018 to publish "A Dream of Spring." There's no way he publishes his final book in two short years.

EDIT: completely missed Gattaca's response, but book 4 is too unsubstantial to stand alone as a season of the show IMO. I think it gives enough extra material to book 5 to create two seasons though.

 

[Emcee77]

Can you provide a link? I can't believe that a publishing company or HBO would allow this from an obese old man.

I don't have a link handy, but I too recall reading that. It might be in that 2011 New Yorker profile.

EDIT: Yep. From the New Yorker:

Martin hopes that, after he surmounts the particularly thorny problems of “A Dance with Dragons,” the final two books will come much faster. Some detractors insist that he’ll never complete the series, and they like to kibbitz about who ought to fill in for him if he pulls a Jordan. Martin, however, has indicated that he will not permit another writer to finish “A Song of Ice and Fire.” The story begins and ends with him.

George R. R. Martin’s Fantasy Books and Fans : The New Yorker "Pulling a Jordan," btw, means dying before you finish the series. Refers to Robert Jordan, another fantasy writer.

Everyone interested in the series should read that article, btw. It's fascinating, but it gives me very little confidence that he will finish the series in a timely fashion. I get the troubling impression that the series just grew out of his control and now he has tied himself up in knots and doesn't know how to get where he wants to go.

greyhammer raises a good point though. Does Martin have the right to prevent someone from finishing his books? It is hard to believe that the publisher wouldn't protect itself by contracting for the right to finish the series. On the other hand, maybe they didn't think of it until the series grew so popular that Martin, not the publishers, dictates the terms.

 

[gkIrish]

I don't have a link handy, but I too recall reading that. It might be in that 2011 New Yorker profile.

He may have said it but I don't believe he would allow his story to simply end before it is complete. That would harm his legacy.

 

[woolybug25]

Can you provide a link? I can't believe that a publishing company or HBO would allow this from an obese old man.

What choice would they have? That obese old man is the reason they have the story at all. Without him, there are no books for HBO to screenplay it off of. If they wanted to do the project, then he had the right to make it under his terms. If they weren't okay with it, then i'm sure there was a plethora of suitors behind HBO that would be more than happy to give him that clause.

 

[woolybug25]

He may have said it but I don't believe he would allow his story to simply end before it is complete. That would harm his legacy.

George R.R. Martin: No More Song of Ice and Fire Once I’m Gone | Tor.com

In a recent interview with the Sydney Morning Herald, he also took the time to talk about the future of Westeros—as in, the future after he’s no longer around to write the books himself. He as decided that he doesn’t want anyone continuing the story in his absence, in the style of Ian Fleming or Robert Ludlum, because he’s too concerned about the quality of the stories. As he said:

“…history has shown us is eventually these literary rights pass to grandchildren or collateral descendants, or people who didn’t actually know the writer and don’t care about his wishes. It’s just a cash cow to them. And then we get abominations, to my mind, like Scarlett, the Gone with the Wind sequel.”

He specifically praised the Tolkien estate for taking care of J.R.R. Tolkien’s works, as he assumes that there are people hungry to use those worlds, and he feels it would diminish Tolkien’s legacy. “I hope I never see Sauron Strikes Back written by some third rate writer who leaps at the opportunity.”

His answers to the interviewer’s questions are very much in line with what he’s said in the past—that he thinks writers need to create their own worlds and characters—and with the possibility that HBO may reveal how Game of Thrones ends before the books can do so, it would seem that there is a very real possibility of his worlds striving to exist beyond their author.

 

[IrishLax]

If I remember correctly, HBO basically said they're forging ahead with finishing the show in 7 seasons regardless of Martin. Now, that might mean a movie (or three) to wrap everything up... but excluding that option for a second:

We know that since books 4/5 cover the same concurrent timespan and that HBO isn't going to do a "split" like Martin that it's a possibility that HBO maybe does them both in a "two part" season (like they've done with other shows). So Season 5 might be Season 5, Part 1 (8 episodes) and Season 5, Part 2 (8 episodes) all in 2015. Or, they're simply going to cover 4/5 in two full seasons (the Season 5 and Season 6 we already know they have renewed).

So unless HBO starts doing longer seasons there's no way they get through all 7 books by Season 7. If they did, then Martin would be in trouble as HBO likely hits season 7 no later than fall 2017.

Martin is unlikely to release Winds of Winter this year, because it's Martin. So with a 2015 release he's looking at having only about 2 years to completely his final novel or get lapped by HBO. That's... unlikely to happen.

 

[GATTACA!]

EDIT: completely missed Gattaca's response, but book 4 is too unsubstantial to stand alone as a season of the show IMO. I think it gives enough extra material to book 5 to create two seasons though.

This is what I was trying to say, but words are hard at 3A.M.

 

[IrishLax]

EDIT: completely missed Gattaca's response, but book 4 is too unsubstantial to stand alone as a season of the show IMO. I think it gives enough extra material to book 5 to create two seasons though.

Yeah, I really think 4/5 will be rolled into one Season 5 with 10-16 episodes and maybe divided into two parts.

Honestly, on so many levels, books 4 and 5 were just complete wastes of time. I love getting into the nitty gritty and backstory and exploring the world... so I like them. But he spent TWO GIANT BOOKS moving pieces around and setting the table. To most casual readers, that's nothing but boring.

 

[Emcee77]

If I remember correctly, HBO basically said they're forging ahead with finishing the show in 7 seasons regardless of Martin. Now, that might mean a movie (or three) to wrap everything up... but excluding that option for a second:

We know that since books 4/5 cover the same concurrent timespan and that HBO isn't going to do a "split" like Martin that it's a possibility that HBO maybe does them both in a "two part" season (like they've done with other shows). So Season 5 might be Season 5, Part 1 (8 episodes) and Season 5, Part 2 (8 episodes) all in 2015. Or, they're simply going to cover 4/5 in two full seasons (the Season 5 and Season 6 we already know they have renewed).

So unless HBO starts doing longer seasons there's no way they get through all 7 books by Season 7. If they did, then Martin would be in trouble as HBO likely hits season 7 no later than fall 2017.

Martin is unlikely to release Winds of Winter this year, because it's Martin. So with a 2015 release he's looking at having only about 2 years to completely his final novel or get lapped by HBO. That's... unlikely to happen.

I think this is all totally correct, and yet ... I just can't imagine that Martin will allow the show to steal his thunder.

Again, according to HBO at least, HBO knows the ending and has no problem going forward with it regardless of which books Martin has finished by the time they are ready to shoot season 7.

I think a lot of people want to watch a show/movie based on a book they've read because they want to see the events described in the book represented visually. That's obvious. Martin readers love the GOT show.

But I don't think as many people want to read a book describing events they've already seen on film. Hardcore fans would, to get more of the backstory, etc., but casual fans aren't going to spend hours upon hours reading a book when they already know the ending.

Plus, if Martin lets the show end first, he almost gives up his claim to being the person who hands down the "authentic" version of the story. If his last book diverges from the show, people may even accuse him of altering the proposed storyline just to differentiate the book from the show people have seen.

I know he doesn't want to rush the last book, but really, it's in his best interest to get it out there. I'm hoping against hope that he will really put his nose to the grindstone on it.

 

[IrishLion]

GRRM is just playing us all. He's probably already cut a deal with HBO to film three major motion pictures after the show airs it's "Winds of Winter" seasons. He's laughing at us as we fret about the timeline, while he toils along with the 4,500 page first draft of "A Dream of Spring."

 

[gkIrish]

George R.R. Martin: No More Song of Ice and Fire Once I’m Gone | Tor.com

I understand that he is saying all that now because he has a big ego and doesn't think he is going to die anytime soon. But I would think if he was on his deathbed he would have an "oh shit, the story isn't complete" moment and allow someone to complete the books.

 

[greyhammer90]

What choice would they have? That obese old man is the reason they have the story at all. Without him, there are no books for HBO to screenplay it off of. If they wanted to do the project, then he had the right to make it under his terms. If they weren't okay with it, then i'm sure there was a plethora of suitors behind HBO that would be more than happy to give him that clause.

Not really... I know it's hard to believe now but GOT was a huge risk by HBO as it was. Nobody had ever done anything like it before without being really campy. If HBO hadn't expressed interest, I doubt there would have ever been a GOT series.

I mean for gods sake the first book came out when I was like 5. It only got BIG to the general public when I was a junior in college.

 

[IrishLion]

It wasn't a sure-thing for HBO even after the success of the first season. They were worried about the CGI budget that they would need to make the later books.

 

[woolybug25]

Not really... I know it's hard to believe now but GOT was a huge risk by HBO as it was. Nobody had ever done anything like it before without being really campy. If HBO hadn't expressed interest, I doubt there would have ever been a GOT series.

I mean for gods sake the first book came out when I was like 5. It only got BIG to the general public when I was a junior in college.

That's not accurate. HBO had already started doing these types of series and HBO was the very first group that David Benioff and D. B. Weiss approached about the project. They had to pitch the idea to Martin as well. It wasn't like Martin was shopping the idea at all. This process didn't start until 2006… when were you a junior in college?