Silly Season '13 (Coaching Changes)

[woolybug25]

Some of you seem to forget BK came from Cincinnati. Overachieving with inferior talent = good coaching.

BK won a lot more games and beat better teams at Cinci. He also had many years of successful head coaching experience beforehand. Franklin is in his third year.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I still just don't understand this argument. It does not follow that a team that has sucked will continue to suck. You role over the entire roster every 4 years and have significant turnover year to year. Historical success is not a good measure for future success and historical failure doesn't mean suck forever. The dude can recruit his ass off and he has changed the culture of vandy football. But he still only has one win over a team he shouldn't have beat. Texas needs a culture change, sure, but I'm not sure that simply doing that means Texas will be back, which is the goal of this hire


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Depends on how you define it. They have had the WORST recruiting in the SEC until his current freshman class. He should have been losing to Ole Miss (generally top 20-25 teams), Auburn (even with Chizik), Tennessee, Missouri, and Arkansas. He beat all of them last year.

EDIT: To be fair, I think pkt said worst or second worst.

 

[gkIrish]

I don't think Franklin is overachieving


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Vanderbilt was 4-20 in the two years before he took over. I think coaching Vanderbilt to winning at least 8 games the last two years in a competitive conference is pretty good. What would you qualify as "achieving" for that school?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I don't think Franklin is overachieving


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Then you're totally discounting recruiting.

 

[pkt77242]

I still just don't understand this argument. It does not follow that a team that has sucked will continue to suck. You role over the entire roster every 4 years and have significant turnover year to year. Historical success is not a good measure for future success and historical failure doesn't mean suck forever. The dude can recruit his ass off and he has changed the culture of vandy football. But he still only has one win over a team he shouldn't have beat. Texas needs a culture change, sure, but I'm not sure that simply doing that means Texas will be back, which is the goal of this hire


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Actually if you look at talent levels (recruiting) Vandy should go defeated every year in conference, so actually he is beating many teams that he shouldn't. I think that is part of the breakdown in communication between the two sides. His talent level is either last or 2nd to last in the SEC, so winning half of his SEC games is a large leap over his talent level.

Also while you do change over your roster every 4-5 years it is still hard to turn a historical failure into a winner. Usually because historical failures don't have the money/facilities/recruiting to get significantly better and can't hold onto the good coaches that they may hire as a better program hires them away. So while you can change a historically bad program it is difficult.

 

[woolybug25]

Depends on how you define it. They have had the WORST recruiting in the SEC until his current freshman class. He should have been losing to Ole Miss (generally top 20-25 teams), Auburn (even with Chizik), Tennessee, Missouri, and Arkansas. He beat all of them last year.

All of those teams you listed had a losing season last year except Ole Miss, who was one game over .500. When did victories over bad teams become defining wins?

 

[woolybug25]

Vanderbilt was 4-20 in the two years before he took over. I think coaching Vanderbilt to winning at least 8 games the last two years in a competitive conference is pretty good. What would you qualify as "achieving" for that school?

You know I love ya, bro. But who has he beat?

Looking at his record, he has one quality victory in his time there. One.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

All of those teams you listed had a losing season last year except Ole Miss, who was one game over .500. When did victories over bad teams become defining wins?

I don't know...you seem to think that Michigan State has had an incredible year.

EDIT: I KNOW that many of their wins were against teams with winning records. But, c'mon, the B1G is horrific this year.

 

[gkIrish]

You know I love ya, bro. But who has he beat?

Looking at his record, he has one quality victory in his time there. One.

I know what you're saying. The way I look at it, you gotta compare what the team was before a coach gets there and what they have done since.

Do I think he is good enough to coach at Texas? Probably not, because Texas is probably the #1 job in the country. But he is a good coach. They don't have spectacular wins but they play teams a lot tighter than they used to and rarely lose to bad teams. For example, they only lost to South Carolina by 10 and 4 the last two years.

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

Vanderbilt was 4-20 in the two years before he took over. I think coaching Vanderbilt to winning at least 8 games the last two years in a competitive conference is pretty good. What would you qualify as "achieving" for that school?

Again with the they sucked before. And if we are going down that road then the year before the were 7-6, beat two ranked teams and were #13 at one point.

I think he is achieving right on par with the talent on the team and the miserable state of the bottom of the SEC.

2011 in the SEC they beat Ole Miss (2-10) and Kentucky (2-10)
2012 in the SEC they beat Mizzou (5-7), Auburn (3-9), Kentucky (2-10), Ole Miss (6-6 plus a bowl win 7-6), and Tennessee (5-7 with one conference win).
This year we have discussed at length. He has been beating teams that are in crisis and/or are flat out bad. That doesn't mean he is overachieving.

Then you're totally discounting recruiting.

Not at all. I think he is recruiting well and getting exactly what he should out of those guys and beating teams that are underachieving

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

Actually if you look at talent levels (recruiting) Vandy should go defeated every year in conference, so actually he is beating many teams that he shouldn't. I think that is part of the breakdown in communication between the two sides. His talent level is either last or 2nd to last in the SEC, so winning half of his SEC games is a large leap over his talent level.

Also while you do change over your roster every 4-5 years it is still hard to turn a historical failure into a winner. Usually because historical failures don't have the money/facilities/recruiting to get significantly better and can't hold onto the good coaches that they may hire as a better program hires them away. So while you can change a historically bad program it is difficult.

This a) assumes recruiting rankings are a perfect prediction of talent, b) that every other team is getting the potential out of their recruits, and c) that isn't accurate as Vandy hasn't been dead last every year. Ole Miss fired their coach after 2011 because of underachieving, Joker Phillips was awful at UK, Dooley was fired from Tennessee for bad performance, and Auburn fired Chizik last year. These teams were underachieving

4-5 year turn over is what makes the turn around possible....

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

I think Franklin is a good coach, just not a great one. The only thing he is great at is being an asshole.

 

[pkt77242]

This a) assumes recruiting rankings are a perfect prediction of talent, b) that every other team is getting the potential out of their recruits, and c) that isn't accurate as Vandy hasn't been dead last every year. Ole Miss fired their coach after 2011 because of underachieving, Joker Phillips was awful at UK, Dooley was fired from Tennessee for bad performance, and Auburn fired Chizik last year. These teams were underachieving

4-5 year turn over is what makes the turn around possible....

To the bolded I disagree completely, there is so much that goes into turning a program around, new coaches, money facilities, it isn't just as easy as 4-5 years and we will be better. It is extremely difficult to take a historically bad team and to make them a great team and keep them there. Hell it is difficult to take a historically bad team and make them an 8 win team regularly. Well you did say possible, so yes it is possible but exceedingly difficult.

A) Recruiting rankings don't have to be perfect predictors of talent but they are the best we have and are reasonable accurate. B) the fact that he was getting more out of his lower ranked recruits is what makes him a good to very good (and possibly a great) coach. C)Vandy was dead last half the time and the other two times they were 2nd to last during the four years I posted. They had horrific recruiting class.

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

To the bolded I disagree completely, there is so much that goes into turning a program around, new coaches, money facilities, it isn't just as easy as 4-5 years and we will be better. It is extremely difficult to take a historically bad team and to make them a great team and keep them there. Hell it is difficult to take a historically bad team and make them an 8 win team regularly. Well you did say possible, so yes it is possible but exceedingly difficult.

A) Recruiting rankings don't have to be perfect predictors of talent but they are the best we have and are reasonable accurate. B) the fact that he was getting more out of his lower ranked recruits is what makes him a good to very good (and possibly a great) coach. C)Vandy was dead last half the time and the other two times they were 2nd to last during the four years I posted. They had horrific recruiting class.

I don't think he is doing that. I think the SEC teams he has knocked off are underachieving and he is getting what he should out of them. If he were overachieving he would be beating better teams.

We might just have to disagree about whether one guy adding excitement to a bad program can turn them into a 4-4 conference team. 8 wins is misleading when 4 of them are against joke out of conference teams.

 

[stlnd01]

James Franklin has done a good job turning Vanderbilt from a doormat of the SEC into a middle-of-the-pack SEC team that consistently beats the doormats but doesn't quite beat the big boys. Also as Kane pointed out, the non-conference schedule is a joke (and annual rival Tennessee has been terrible lately, too).
That performance doesn't suck. But it doesn't put him among the 15 best coaches in college football, nor does it seem to make him more qualified for one of the biggest jobs in the game than other potential candidates like Briles, Gundy, Charlie Strong, etc. He's no Saban. He's not even Brian Kelly circa 2009.
If I were a Texas fan and they hired him, I'd wonder why we didn't do better. Maybe that's not fair, but that's what I'd think.

 

[Irish#1]

I see I have to read four pages from just the last two hours to get caught up and it's a pissing match on whether Franklin is a top coach worthy of the UT job?! I can sum it up quite nicely. Wolly doesn't think he is and PKT does.


God I've got a headache.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I see I have to read four pages from just the last two hours to get caught up and it's a pissing match on whether Franklin is a top coach worthy of the UT job?! I can sum it up quite nicely. Wolly doesn't think he is and PKT does.


God I've got a headache.

Why was that a pissing match? No one took personal shots...no one called anyone stupid. We just disagreed. I had a really good time discussing the merits of the argument.

 

[philipm31]

I know the point you're trying to make but let me submit one thing, when Harbaugh took over Stanford in 2007 they hadn't had a winning season since 2001, Vandy had a winning season in 2008 with wins over #24 SC and #14 Auburn and Vandy was ranked as high at #13 that year. So while Vandy had been terrible for many years they had the athletes to pull off the 2008 season so maybe the turn around had already begun. I would also suggest that Franklin at Vandy is at an advantage over Harbaugh at Stanford because the admissions are looser and he can pitch ESE EEE CEE.

You think that the admissions at VANDY are on par with the ones at Auburn, Alabama, TN, Ole Miss, etc??

What world are you living in, my friend?

"Other SEC schools had a habit of oversigning recruits—offering scholarships they didn't have, under the assumption that some of the signees would not qualify academically anyway.Vanderbilt's admissions standards are the highest in the SEC, and the team does not sign players unless the university has already decided to admit them."

For Vanderbilt, playing in the nation's toughest - 09.19.11 - SI Vault

Go to the 3rd page, at the bottom.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Franklin has done a good job at Vandy. But he has also had his share of issues at Vandy. He would be a disaster from a PR standpoint as he tends to run his mouth too much. Can he recruit? Yes. Can he coach? Yes. At an elite level? I don't know.

Bottom line for me is this.... if Franklin is the best Texas can get then the Longhorn program isn't as highly thought of outside of Texas as it is inside of Texas.

 

[Irish#1]

Franklin has done a good job at Vandy. But he has also had his share of issues at Vandy. He would be a disaster from a PR standpoint as he tends to run his mouth too much. Can he recruit? Yes. Can he coach? Yes. At an elite level? I don't know.

Bottom line for me is this.... if Franklin is the best Texas can get then the Longhorn program isn't as highly thought of outside of Texas as it is inside of Texas.

I don't necessarily agree. Franklin could blow their socks off and they feel he's the best even of there are guys with better resumes. To me Texas will always be highly touted. ND went thru the same thing for a while and media kept saying it wasn't an elite position anymore. They insisted that the weather was a major factor, as was academics, isolated campus, kids don't care about tradition. I always maintained that it was still a top football program and it was just several poor coaching hires that kept ND football from being a ranked team every year. I won't go into the flaws of these coaches, but BK has certainly proved the media wrong.

 

[T Town Tommy]

I don't necessarily agree. Franklin could blow their socks off and they feel he's the best even of there are guys with better resumes. To me Texas will always be highly touted. ND went thru the same thing for a while and media kept saying it wasn't an elite position anymore. They insisted that the weather was a major factor, as was academics, isolated campus, kids don't care about tradition. I always maintained that it was still a top football program and it was just several poor coaching hires that kept ND football from being a ranked team every year. I won't go into the flaws of these coaches, but BK has certainly proved the media wrong.

When I make a list of the top coaches that would possibly consider Texas, Franklin isn't in the top 7-8. Not saying he couldn't be a great coach; just think Texas should expect better and more proven. Franklin has done wonders at Vandy but I don't put him on any higher pedestal than PaPa Brooks when he was at Ky. Brooks took a dismal program and had them going to three or four straight bowl games as well. And Ky's football program was no different than Vandy's. Both were bottom feeders in the SEC.

I just can't see Franklin being able to handle the other requirements of a Texas coach. He is not a politician... and at Texas the coach has to be just that. Upset a few big money donors and you lose favor quick. Franklin's mouth is what what do him in... long before his ability to coach.

 

[ACamp1900]

Every program settles on hires at times... ND and Bama included

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Cowherd on ESPN radio just threw out BK as a candidate for Texas.

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

You think that the admissions at VANDY are on par with the ones at Auburn, Alabama, TN, Ole Miss, etc??

What world are you living in, my friend?

"Other SEC schools had a habit of oversigning recruits—offering scholarships they didn't have, under the assumption that some of the signees would not qualify academically anyway.Vanderbilt's admissions standards are the highest in the SEC, and the team does not sign players unless the university has already decided to admit them."

For Vanderbilt, playing in the nation's toughest - 09.19.11 - SI Vault

Go to the 3rd page, at the bottom.

Where did I say anything like that? I'm more aware than you would guess about the academic and admission standards at Vandy. I said Vandy isn't Stanford and has the SEC football angle to pitch to recruits.

 

[phork]

Cowherd on ESPN radio just threw out BK as a candidate for Texas.

Why wouldn't you? One of the most successful coaches in college and by the Eagles flirtation shows that ND is not his final destination. Surprised its taken this long.

 

[NDdomer2]

Before I say this I want to say I agree with Wooly.

ESPN just had Shefter on talking about NFL coaching vacancies. He said that with the recent success of the Harbaughs, Carroll, and Chip that he is hearing most NFL teams will look to college first. He mentions three names: Bill O'Brien (called it likely), James Franklin (called it likely), and David Shaw (not likely).

When talking about James Franklin he said that teams are very interested because he is young, energetic, and....wait for it.....brilliant.

 

[NDohio]

Before I say this I want to say I agree with Wooly.

ESPN just had Shefter on talking about NFL coaching vacancies. He said that with the recent success of the Harbaughs, Carroll, and Chip that he is hearing most NFL teams will look to college first. He mentions three names: Bill O'Brien (called it likely), James Franklin (called it likely), and David Shaw (not likely).

When talking about James Franklin he said that teams are very interested because he is young, energetic, and....wait for it.....brilliant.

Very glad to see one specific name missing from that list.

 

[TheChosen1]

Bruce Feldman‏@BFeldmanCBS5m

#JMU announces it has hired #OhioState's co-DC Everett Withers as its new head coach. He will coach in OSU's bowl game.

 

[STLDomer]

Co-DC and Safeties Coach w/ 104th ranked passing defense > HC?

 

[NDdomer2]

I'm sure he would stay if he could