Johnny Football

Bishop2b5

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To be honest, I'd be surprised if it were this close. I think you guys destroy them this year.

I hope you're right. Saban is a killer in "revenge" games. He's had a long time to gameplan for this one, so I think our D will give JM fits and shut him down more or less. I'm just worried about our O-line and how it played last week. If Saban hasn't gotten that problem worked out by next week, we'll struggle to move the ball, put up points, and keep JM off the field. It would be nice to see our D totally dominate him and leave him crying on the bench.
 

IrishSteelhead

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Bama is going to murder A&M. I hope to see a good game as a non-fan of each team, but it simply isn't going to happen IMO.
 

Redbar

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I hope you're right. Saban is a killer in "revenge" games. He's had a long time to gameplan for this one, so I think our D will give JM fits and shut him down more or less. I'm just worried about our O-line and how it played last week. If Saban hasn't gotten that problem worked out by next week, we'll struggle to move the ball, put up points, and keep JM off the field. It would be nice to see our D totally dominate him and leave him crying on the bench.

I don't think you need to worry about your oline, A&M's defensive front is pretty poor, Rice had 505 yards of offense including 303 on the ground. A&M does NOT have an SEC defense, they just get credit for one. I see a curb stomp. Take BAMA minus the points.
 

phork

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Alabama is going to dismantle A&M. The blood shed will be massive.
 

Booslum31

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I just want JM to get hit so hard he swallows his mouth-piece and is calling for mommy.
 

IrishLion

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It would be amazing if the inevitable Manziel meltdown was on national TV in a debacle against Bama. I could see him blowing up on Sumlin on the sidelines, pushing teammates, flipping off the crowd, possibly just walking off and leaving his team.

It may be overstating his doucheness, but it's still fun to consider.
 

Kak7304

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Good read, written by non other than Doug Gottlieb where he discusses his transgressions at ND and talks about entitlement in college athletics.

On Manziel, Time magazine, and entitlement among college players - CBSSports.com

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Doug Gottlieb
CBSSports.com Contributor
On Manziel, Time magazine, and entitlement among college players
September 9, 2013 5:06 pm ET

I was the epitome of the selfish college athlete. During my freshman year at Notre Dame, I led the team in assists and looked headed for a bright future on a team that was finding its legs in the Big East. I considered myself a leader on a team that many believed would have NCAA tournament potential in 1996-97, when I was to be a sophomore.

That was when greed and the dark side of human nature kicked in. After the season, sitting in a dorm room of a kid who let me use his computer, I stole a credit card, charged a couple items on it, and put it back in the same spot the next night. I did it to two other guys too. Why did I do it? Because I thought I could get away with it. I didn't need the money -- my parents weren't rich, but my dad always sent me $400 a month spending money in school, which was plenty. But I did it, I got caught, was asked to leave Notre Dame and was immediately confronted with just how selfish the act was.

Selfish to my teammates, who were now down a point guard. Selfish to my dorm-mates at Dillon Hall, who would now lock their doors after I stole the sanctity of what should have been their safe haven. Selfish to my family, which had sacrificed so I could have this incredible opportunity and would be stained by this. My coach, John MacLeod, never made the NCAA tournament the program seemed destined for, and was fired along with his entire staff after what would have been my senior year. Seventeen years have passed, and I still draw a straight line between what I did and the fact that MacLeod and his assistants Fran McCaffery, Terry Tyler and Parker Laketa had their careers impacted and families uprooted.

After Notre Dame, I transferred to Oklahoma State and had a great career under Eddie Sutton, who had his own demons but preached accountability for my past and the need to work to be a better man. I'm now 37, with a wife and kids and good job and am still judged by a lot of people for something incredibly stupid I did when I was 20. I'll probably be judged by those same people when I'm 67, though since the people I hurt have forgiven me, I couldn't care less what outsiders think. I keep with me a gold bracelet I bought with one of the credit cards as a reminder of my shame.

Which brings us to Johnny Manziel, also 20 years old, who is being called a selfish college athlete too and will probably come to regret the actions of his younger life. Common sense and logic dictates that, in spite of the lack of evidence needed to suspend him, Manziel didn't sign all those autographs purely out of the goodness of his heart. What he allegedly did wasn't criminal -- what I did was -- but we put our teammates, our families, our coaches at risk in much the same way.

Johnny has that same arrogance I had. The difference is nobody was putting me on the cover of Time Magazine, making me a poster boy for why college athletes should be paid.

Time's piece, published last week, is thoughtful and worth reading. It considers the current economics of college sports and makes the point that with schools and athletic departments making more money than ever, athletes are being slighted more than ever. That they deserve to be paid, above and beyond the barter of a scholarship. But the contention is wrong. The statistics Time cites are misleading at best, and remarkably undersell not only the value of a college education, but also the value of simply getting into a university.

How many scholarships are given to athletes who never would have received the chance to go to college, much less to have free everything while there? While there are some tangibles within the business of college sports we can put a dollar value on, there is no calculation on simply getting into college. I invite writers and fans to read, ask around and research how difficult admissions standards are for mid- to high-level universities, private schools and also high-level public schools, especially when those students come from out of state. Many college football and basketball players are simply not academically able to get into schools of this caliber, yet the sport they play grants them special admissions status. Cal, UCLA, Stanford, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Michigan, Texas, Texas A&M, Florida, North Carolina, Duke and many others are ridiculously difficult to get into, and remarkably expensive once you get in, but no one puts a true financial value on admissions.

Once you're there, your scholarship is a contract that binds you to your school. One side of the deal is this: we pick up everything. All you have to do is show up, keep your grades at a marginal level, and you can be part of the most exclusive club on campus. You will be trained in both your sport and your post-athletics career path. If you begin grad school while you are eligible, guess who picks up the tab? Not you. Many scholarship football players are on campus for five years, during which time they receive free tutoring, the best counseling, priority enrollment into certain classes, new textbooks, the best dorms and meals, in addition to the training, coaching, and essentially work experience you can gain in your sport. Additionally, the NCAA essentially allows student-athletes who leave to return and get their degree on a full grant-in-aid at any time. Does this sound like a good deal so far?

OK, here's the part of your rights you sign away when you accept the athletic scholarship, which remember, entitles you to all of the above. If you're a star, we are going to sell you. We'll use your likeness in promotional materials, we'll use your talents to help sell season tickets and merchandise, and we'll sell you to recruit more athletes, and more students, to come to our campus. If you've made it big, we'll continue to do that after you leave.

Terms are thrown around like 'exploitation' and 'indentured servitude,' neither of which reflect the reality of what takes place, which is the marketing of a young men's athletic skills in exchange for training, promotion, competition and evaluation in their chosen sport, in addition to the best education the athlete chooses to receive from a university. You want exploitation? Try high-achieving students who earned their way into school, perform at high levels academically, graduate and achieve in the workforce, then are asked to join the alumni association and donate money in addition to whatever student loans they're attempting to repay. In this way, schools exploit all their students. If anything, athletes get off easy, as athletes can exploit (the action of benefitting from resources) schools, more often than vice versa.

Yes, you may also help the head coach of the program you signed on with make millions of dollars. But let's not lose sight of this: show me a coach making millions of dollars, and I'll show you someone who worked for years, usually decades, for that privilege. Coaches all have their degrees, and have worked their way up through the ranks of the profession just like hard-working people do in every profession. They have earned the right to be fully-vested partners in the firm. They have hired you, essentially, as an intern who gets paid in college credits and other amazing, non-monetary benefits as an important part of a lucrative business. They do not owe you a piece of their salary.

And of course all this is beside the point of the ultimate irony, which is Time casting Johnny Manziel as the martyr in this morality play, like he's the Curt Flood of college football. Please. Manziel could have joined the Ed O'Bannon lawsuit and sued the NCAA over using his likeness. Other current athletes did, Manziel did not. Manziel could have sat out the season in protest of Texas A&M profiting off his success. He did not. What he did, if the allegations ESPN put forth are true, is sign some autographs at a value of $25 a signature, netting a windfall of easy cash that by all accounts he didn't really need. What he did was to put the rest of his teammates, his coaches, his family and everyone who ever believed in him at risk. He thought of none of those people when he signed those autographs and allegedly received that cash, and he thinks of none of them when he mocks the investigation with immature gestures on the field.

Manziel is not a shining emblem of what's gone wrong with the notion of amateurism in college sports. But don't get me wrong, he is a poster boy. He's a poster boy for the classic, immature entitled athlete. I know what that guy on the poster looks like. I used to look at him in the mirror.
 

ACamp1900

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I really hate to say this as I don't like Gottlieb generally... but I totally agree and think that was a great article...

The "these poor exploited athletes" crowd really makes my eyes roll.
 
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IrishJayhawk

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I really hate to say this as I don't like Gottlieb generally... but I totally agree and think that was a great article...

The "these poor exploited athletes" crowd really makes my eyes roll.

Good article. Great stuff about his time at ND. Very honest.
 
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IrishLax

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That's an A+ article. For Gottlieb, that's an A+++++++ article. Really well written in every facet and quite powerful.

Completely changed my impression of Gottlieb as a person/analyst.
 

Emcee77

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Ugh, it drives me NUTS when people argue that college football players don't need to be paid because they are already being compensated by being admitted to college and relieved from paying tuition like other students. I just think that is beside the point. They generate millions and millions of dollars for the university, but are prevented by their obligations as student-athletes from working for spending money. Denying them spending money just seems like imposing a needless hardship on them. Why not allow just a tiny bit more of the value they've created by their own blood, sweat and tears to accrue to their benefit, so they can buy a suit for a job interview if they aren't going to the NFL or can afford plane fare home for break or what have you? There is a whole INDUSTRY surrounding these guys, made up of people whose careers are to facilitate, promote and describe/analyze their exploits. It just strikes me as bizarre to act like big-time college football isn't--if not exclusively, certainly in large part--about the money.

BUT BUT BUT, HAVING SAID ALL THAT, it is BEYOND IDIOTIC for anyone to act like Johnny Manziel's case supports the argument that college players should be paid. This is not a kid who took a plane ticket from a booster so he could be there when his sick grandpa died. He knew the rules, and he broke them due to his own selfishness, just as Gottlieb said. With that part of the article I could not agree more. I'm really disappointed that Manziel wasn't punished more harshly.
 

95NDAlumNM

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What I do not understand is why Gottlieb was shown the door at ND. He only did what every average Dillon resident does. If this was a problem they would have to get rid of the dorm. :) GoDawgs.
 

BobD

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For every student/athlete that makes or draws money to a university, how many would you guess cost the university money? How profitable is college golf, swimming, baseball, wrestling, soccer, lacrosse, hockey? Does any womens sport make money? You can't say ok were just gonna pay football players.

I'd favor paying those kids with academic scholarships, especially if they were striving to be teachers, Lord knows they never make enough to pay back student loans to attend a top tier university.
 

palinurus

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That's an A+ article. For Gottlieb, that's an A+++++++ article. Really well written in every facet and quite powerful.

Completely changed my impression of Gottlieb as a person/analyst.


This is my view, too.
 

palinurus

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Re the game, I feel a bit like I did as a kid, watching the Cuban-Soviet Union boxing matches in the Olympics: don't really care who wins, but hope they beat the hell out of each other.
 

Irish Houstonian

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...Obviously it wouldn't decimate the athletic department funds to do what I'm suggesting. Lord, you could probably do it for a tenth of our recruiting budget...

But for some programs it might be huge, or they might not even be able to do it, depending on what $ we're talking about. Thus the parity gap gets even wider. I personally like it when, once in a while, the Appalachian States or James Madisons or McNeese States get to shock the world. Stipends just make these occurences that much more infrequent.
 

Emcee77

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But for some programs it might be huge, or they might not even be able to do it, depending on what $ we're talking about. Thus the parity gap gets even wider. I personally like it when, once in a while, the Appalachian States or James Madisons or McNeese States get to shock the world. Stipends just make these occurences that much more infrequent.

That's a fair point re: those FCS schools. This could widen the gap between the FBS and FCS, or really even between the power conference schools and the rest.
 

BobD

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If they did start paying players, Harvard would be the new Alabama.
 

IrishLax

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Ugh, it drives me NUTS when people argue that college football players don't need to be paid because they are already being compensated by being admitted to college and relieved from paying tuition like other students. I just think that is beside the point. They generate millions and millions of dollars for the university, but are prevented by their obligations as student-athletes from working for spending money. Denying them spending money just seems like imposing a needless hardship on them. Why not allow just a tiny bit more of the value they've created by their own blood, sweat and tears to accrue to their benefit, so they can buy a suit for a job interview if they aren't going to the NFL or can afford plane fare home for break or what have you? There is a whole INDUSTRY surrounding these guys, made up of people whose careers are to facilitate, promote and describe/analyze their exploits. It just strikes me as bizarre to act like big-time college football isn't--if not exclusively, certainly in large part--about the money.

There are two irreconcilable parts of the "pay players" debate. The first is that the rules that govern them are patently unfair and almost downright un-American because they're being deprived their free market value, whereas a skier or swimmer or gymnast or science prodigy or even just your general really smart student is free to profit off their likeness/abilities/etc. while in school. This makes no sense.

The second is that these players are more than "compensated" as the article points out... they only have value BECASUE of the school and most general students would gladly trade places with them and play for free. If the NCAA completely banned athletic scholarships, college football would still thrive and at less cost to the universities. These kids would be forced to try to go through a minor league system to make it to the NFL where they would be paid very little and not receive nearly the "compensation" they get by attending an elite 4-year university.

Two very different sides of the same coin.

BUT BUT BUT, HAVING SAID ALL THAT, it is BEYOND IDIOTIC for anyone to act like Johnny Manziel's case supports the argument that college players should be paid. This is not a kid who took a plane ticket from a booster so he could be there when his sick grandpa died. He knew the rules, and he broke them due to his own selfishness, just as Gottlieb said. With that part of the article I could not agree more. I'm really disappointed that Manziel wasn't punished more harshly.

Yeah, this is what the core of the article was to me. People do stupid things. People can be selfish. You can either own it and try to get better... or you can go out and get flagged for taunting Rice players while miming fake autographs. He needs to grow up.
 

IrishLax

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If they did start paying players, Harvard would be the new Alabama.

Ehhh... very doubtful. Nobody at Harvard has any interest in running a minor league sports team with the school's name on it. It's not part of their mission. That's why they banned athletic scholarships in the first place for the Ivy League... so that they would avoid the current crap that other DI schools are a part of it.

You'd have a weird balance between large state schools with avid fan bases (Michigan, Alabama, Ohio State, etc.) where fans would donated huge chunks of their yearly income to "help their team win"... while also having your Notre Dame's and Stanford's that would be in a peculiar position of "how much do we want to dip into our endowment?" Florida and Texas... due to no income tax... would also be at a HUGE advantage.
 

BobD

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Ehhh... very doubtful. Nobody at Harvard has any interest in running a minor league sports team with the school's name on it. It's not part of their mission. That's why they banned athletic scholarships in the first place for the Ivy League... so that they would avoid the current crap that other DI schools are a part of it.

You'd have a weird balance between large state schools with avid fan bases (Michigan, Alabama, Ohio State, etc.) where fans would donated huge chunks of their yearly income to "help their team win"... while also having your Notre Dame's and Stanford's that would be in a peculiar position of "how much do we want to dip into our endowment?" Florida and Texas... due to no income tax... would also be at a HUGE advantage.

I agree. I was just being sarcastic and forgot the font......but geez 32 billion in endowments holy bat crap!
 

peoriairish

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Honestly, this whole situation wouldn't bother me as much nor would JFF **** me off as much if he hadn't won the Heisman last year. He was just as much of a scumbag last year as he is now, but somehow, the voters didn't care.
 

IrishLion

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Honestly, this whole situation wouldn't bother me as much nor would JFF **** me off as much if he hadn't won the Heisman last year. He was just as much of a scumbag last year as he is now, but somehow, the voters didn't care.

Voters don't care about anything but the "wow" factor anymore. They want to see shocking plays and huge stats. They don't care if the players stands for the "integrity" type of things that the Heisman supposedly cares about, or if that person is a pleasant human being. They only care about "shiny new toy wow factor." This is why you will not see a repeat winner or a defensive player win the Heisman, Manti and Clowney will be as close as they come.

The only way we see a repeat winner (IMO obviously) is if major records are broken during the second Heisman season, and the only way we see a defender win is if they record offensive stats as well or are a return specialist.
 

Irish Insanity

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I've reached the conclusion there shouldn't be any monetary compensation for any athletes during their college time. The one thing I wish that would change is that the scholarship offers were for four years.
 

ulukinatme

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kmoose

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Something that just occurred to me:


The pro-pay crowd keeps trying to compare the billions of dollars that NCAA sports generate to the cost of one scholarship. In other words, they are comparing the total revenue of ALL "departments"(athletic departments) to the payroll cost of a single "employee"(player). To accurately compare the revenue vs. return, shouldn't we compare the billions that NCAA sports generate, to the total sum budget of every NCAA institution's athletic department? I'd bet that we would find that a vast percentage of revenues are returned right back to the athletes.
 
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