What's Wrong With ND's Punt Return Game?

[Whiskeyjack]

OFD's Eric Murtaugh just published a very thorough analysis of our PR woes:

The top return teams have dynamic athletes who make a play there and Notre Dame hasn't had that with Neal and Goodman. Perhaps Neal would have turned into that type of player after his freshman season but alas he has transferred. It's a small sample size but something should be said for Floyd and Allen totaling more punt return yardage on just 4 combined returns than the combined efforts of Goodman and Neal across their 43 returns.

The end result is that it's not simply about blocking better as many people complain about ad nauseum. There are a lot of factors involved of which having a major playmaker as the return man may be the most important. Having a defense that forces more 3 & out's deep inside their opponents territory and less in Irish territory will certainly help too. Of the 17 punts examined only 3 were from inside an opponents 20-yard line---the one immediately above which should have been returned while the other 2 were returned for 11 and 8 yards respectively.

So what's the solution for the Irish? In order: Get a dynamic returner, be more aggressive on defense and in returns, block better, worry less about fakes, and trap opponents deep more often.

Since we'll probably be complaining about this again soon, it's well worth your time.

 

[RDU Irish]

The problem with ND's punt return game is that it has generally sucked monkey balls.


There, I win.

 

[RDU Irish]

*As bad as the Irish punt return team has been for 3 years the differential over 36 games has only been -129 yards or -3.3 yards per game. That really gives you a sense of how small of a part punt returns have in many games. That's roughly giving the opponent a 2.5 inch head start per offensive drive of a game.


This kind of says it all. I wasn't aware of the significance of the rule change but it looks like it hits pretty much everyone. Unless you have an elite returner, you really have more risk than reward by doing something other than fair catch.

 

[Wild Bill]

*As bad as the Irish punt return team has been for 3 years the differential over 36 games has only been -129 yards or -3.3 yards per game. That really gives you a sense of how small of a part punt returns have in many games. That's roughly giving the opponent a 2.5 inch head start per offensive drive of a game.


This kind of says it all. I wasn't aware of the significance of the rule change but it looks like it hits pretty much everyone. Unless you have an elite returner, you really have more risk than reward by doing something other than fair catch.

I don't think it's wise to surrender the yardage, even if minimal, on a punt return. An extra ten yards can be vital in a close game. And if you do house a punt, it can break an opponent's spirit. Beamer made a career at VTech picking up cheap yardage on special teams. It's a mistake to simply disregard the return game.

I don't think you need an elite returner to be successful. Zbikowski was a gamer but has no where near the speed or agility Neal possesses, and he did just fine. Repetition is vital on punt return. You have to practice, and IMO, that's the problem. Practicing punt return is difficult and time consuming. Players must run 50-100 yards each rep. They get tired and it's hard to get a "live" look when players are sucking wind. It cuts into practice time too. Completing one rep of punt return takes a lot more time than completing a rep of an offensive or defensive play. Coaches aren't willing to cut the offensive and defensive practice to get additional reps on punt return.

 

[ulukinatme]

The end result is that it's not simply about blocking better as many people complain about ad nauseum. There are a lot of factors involved of which having a major playmaker as the return man may be the most important. Having a defense that forces more 3 & out's deep inside their opponents territory and less in Irish territory will certainly help too.

The bolded part makes sense, I never considered that. I'm in the firm belief that blocking is our biggest problem, however if you consider that we play a "bend don't break" defense and often give up a good number of easy yards, but stiffen at the goal line...you're going to have lots of punts landing inside your own 20 yard line which will prompt fair catches and hopefully touch backs if they roll into the end zone.

 

[GoIrish41]

I miss the days of Tim Brown and Rocket.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Not to mention that 3.3 yds per game may actually not be a lot, but if you just decided to concede those 3 yards every game and fair catch every time, you eliminate the possibility of a big play in the return game, which can drastically effect the outcome of a game. The chance to flip field position or even score (directly or indirectly) is too important to forfeit the opportunity to do so. Maybe you only get one or two a year, but depending when they happen they could change the course of your whole season. Obviously, the opposite is basically true of turnovers in the return game, so you to be confident you are solid catching and holding onto the ball. I think fear about that has been as big of a factor as any in limiting our return game, and that fear isn't totally unfounded.

 

[Rocket89]

I don't think it's wise to surrender the yardage, even if minimal, on a punt return. An extra ten yards can be vital in a close game. And if you do house a punt, it can break an opponent's spirit. Beamer made a career at VTech picking up cheap yardage on special teams. It's a mistake to simply disregard the return game.

I don't think you need an elite returner to be successful. Zbikowski was a gamer but has no where near the speed or agility Neal possesses, and he did just fine. Repetition is vital on punt return. You have to practice, and IMO, that's the problem. Practicing punt return is difficult and time consuming. Players must run 50-100 yards each rep. They get tired and it's hard to get a "live" look when players are sucking wind. It cuts into practice time too. Completing one rep of punt return takes a lot more time than completing a rep of an offensive or defensive play. Coaches aren't willing to cut the offensive and defensive practice to get additional reps on punt return.

The argument, as you're framing it, is about allocating resources through practice time. How much extra time is worth spent on punt returns to get better at the expense of not spending time on offense, defense, etc.?

And the difference isn't 10 yards, even for a team like ND with a poor punt return.

The Va Tech example is a good one, however, one could argue maybe Beamer should be spending some more time in other areas like his offense? Just an interesting factoid that VT blocked 9 kicks/punts in 2007-08 and have only blocked 6 in the 4 years since the punt rule change. I don't know how many of those blocks were on punts but it's interesting nonetheless.

Judging by what we saw from Neal last year I'll take Zibby as a punt returner 100 times out of 100. In fact, I'd argue he was very much the type of return man Notre Dame needs now. He caught the ball in good position, was fearless and smart, typically had his momentum moving forward within an instant of catching the ball, and he was excellent at making one cut and getting upfield. Neal, although a more highly coveted recruit really struggled and was nowhere near as good at this punt return skills as Zibby.

 

[rtrn2glory]

That article really didn't clarify anything we already didn't know

 

[ulukinatme]

I don't think you need an elite returner to be successful. Zbikowski was a gamer but has no where near the speed or agility Neal possesses, and he did just fine.

Actually, Tom was just as fast or faster than Neal. Dunno what Neal's fastest time ever was, but I was seeing 4.47 on a few sites prior to his signing. I've seen numbers for Tommy in the 4.44 range, probably hand timed. If you compare both in Rivals, it shows 4.4 though. Agility wise Neal probably has the edge, but in any case you're talking comparable speed I think, especially since Tommy was considered to play pretty fast on the field.

 

[Rocket89]

That article really didn't clarify anything we already didn't know

Geez, too bad!

 

[Booslum31]

I think a couple of things need to happen:

1) We need to slow their gunners down. You can't return a punt when the gunner gets their at the same time as the ball.
2) You need to make a REAL effort from time to time to block a punt so the punting team isn't releasing without being touched.
3) Our returners should practice not ALWAYS catching the ball on their heels.
4) I think it's been said but we need to force more punts deeper in our own territory. Last year the "bend but don't break" only had us tightening up once the other team crossed the 50.

IMO

 

[Wild Bill]

The argument, as you're framing it, is about allocating resources through practice time. How much extra time is worth spent on punt returns to get better at the expense of not spending time on offense, defense, etc.?

Great question. I'd have to say it depends on your team - experience, depth, talent-level etc would all play a part in the decision. Probably depends on the opponent your playing too.

And the difference isn't 10 yards, even for a team like ND with a poor punt return.

I apologize, I wasn't being clear. I meant 10 yards on any given punt return during a game, not 10 yards combined. For instance, starting at your opponents 45 as opposed to your own 45. You can get a cheap field goal that can be the difference in the game.

The Va Tech example is a good one, however, one could argue maybe Beamer should be spending some more time in other areas like his offense? Just an interesting factoid that VT blocked 9 kicks/punts in 2007-08 and have only blocked 6 in the 4 years since the punt rule change. I don't know how many of those blocks were on punts but it's interesting nonetheless.

Hard to argue with his success. I see your point, though.

Judging by what we saw from Neal last year I'll take Zibby as a punt returner 100 times out of 100. In fact, I'd argue he was very much the type of return man Notre Dame needs now. He caught the ball in good position, was fearless and smart, typically had his momentum moving forward within an instant of catching the ball, and he was excellent at making one cut and getting upfield. Neal, although a more highly coveted recruit really struggled and was nowhere near as good at this punt return skills as Zibby.

Completely agree. That was my point, you don't need blue chip talent back there. You need what you just described.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

1) We need to slow their gunners down. You can't return a punt when the gunner gets their at the same time as the ball.

Easier said than done. As the Eric points out, PRs are now basically 7 DBs trying to block 7 aggressive WRs in an open field; that's really hard to do, and even when we have a clear athleticism advantage, we'll rarely win every one of those battles on the same punt.

2) You need to make a REAL effort from time to time to block a punt so the punting team isn't releasing without being touched.

Agreed. Kelly called Punt Safe in some very strange situations last season. He apparently felt the risk of a fake outweighed the benefit of setting up a better return.

3) Our returners should practice not ALWAYS catching the ball on their heels.

Neal was a true freshman.

4) I think it's been said but we need to force more punts deeper in our own territory. Last year the "bend but don't break" only had us tightening up once the other team crossed the 50.

That's a great point.

 

[irishog77]

That article really didn't clarify anything we already didn't know

Geez, too bad!

Tough crowd, Eric.

 

[BobD]

Coach Kelly specializes in risk vs reward micromanagement and he hasn't found "that guy" to unleash.

 

[Rocket89]

Tough crowd, Eric.

Haha.

 

[irishpat183]

We suck. That's about it.

Better depth will build better special teams. Which we are building.

And we need playmakers back there. Sorry, but John Goodman is not it.

Also, while I think Neal failed, is he was too worried about the return and not about the ball. And there is no time to dance. What made Zibby so good was he found a seam and hit it.

 

[Rocket89]

Coach Kelly specializes in risk vs reward micromanagement and he hasn't found "that guy" to unleash.

Very true.

However, it's worth pointing out that Notre Dame did return a lot more punts last year, landing somewhere very close to the national average. Way less fair catches, but Neal just wasn't "the guy" as a true freshman.

 

[phork]

Wait, we have a return game?

 

[T Town Tommy]

According to Football Outsiders ND's punt return efficiency ranked 103. The bigger debate may be ND's overall Special Teams FEI which ranked only at 90th out of 124 teams.

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2012 FEI RATINGS, SPECIAL TEAMS

Special thanks to whiskeyjack for the lowdown on their site. They have some interesting reading out there.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

You're making it increasingly difficult to dislike you, Tommy.

 

[T Town Tommy]

You're making it increasingly difficult to dislike you, Tommy.

All is well whiskey man.... and congrats on Holmes. I think he is gonna be a good one for you guys.

 

[NDWorld247]

According to Football Outsiders ND's punt return efficiency ranked 103. The bigger debate may be ND's overall Special Teams FEI which ranked only at 90th out of 124 teams.

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2012 FEI RATINGS, SPECIAL TEAMS

Special thanks to whiskeyjack for the lowdown on their site. They have some interesting reading out there.

Thanks for posting. What's interesting about this is there appears to be very little correlation between Special Teams Efficiency (STE) and win/loss record. The top 12 teams have winning records but it gets pretty dicey after that. I would have thought there'd be a stronger correlation considering how important (or so we think) Special Teams are.

Also, Alabama struggles in the same two areas we struggle (punt and kick return), they just struggle a bit less ranking in the 70's instead of the 100's.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Thanks for posting. What's interesting about this is there appears to be very little correlation between Special Teams Efficiency (STE) and win/loss record. The top 12 teams have winning records but it gets pretty dicey after that. I would have thought there'd be a stronger correlation considering how important (or so we think) Special Teams are.

Also, Alabama struggles in the same two areas we struggle (punt and kick return), they just struggle a bit less ranking in the 70's instead of the 100's.

I agree. I would have thought that the correlation would have been much stronger vs win/loss records. The fact that they take STE as a core group to develop their rankings - and not simply one or two aspects of ST - may explain why teams like ND, A&M, and S. Carolina can be lower down the list that one would expect. I do think the areas in which they calculated Bama the weakest were spot on however. End of the day, they are at least providing us some data that appears to fly in the face of conventional wisdom on the value of ST play. It does make for an interesting conversation.

 

[dublinirish]

I agree. I would have thought that the correlation would have been much stronger vs win/loss records. The fact that they take STE as a core group to develop their rankings - and not simply one or two aspects of ST - may explain why teams like ND, A&M, and S. Carolina can be lower down the list that one would expect. I do think the areas in which they calculated Bama the weakest were spot on however. End of the day, they are at least providing us some data that appears to fly in the face of conventional wisdom on the value of ST play. It does make for an interesting conversation.

i think if you struggle on O and D then you gotta roll the dice and spend more time on ST. For the same reason why you dont practice fake FG's when you have a kicker who can kick 50 yarders with ease.

 

[texbender]

Zibby was probably the last real returner we had worth a flip....and that seems so long ago.

 

[ulukinatme]

You're making it increasingly difficult to dislike you, Tommy.

I concur, as much as it pains me to say it

I'm partial to fans from other teams that aren't trolls though, they add a lot more to a board imo than just a one sided point of view.

 

[Kingbish01]

Zibby was probably the last real returner we had worth a flip....and that seems so long ago.

Golden Tate wasn't bad either. That return against Pitt in '09 was effin awesome! How about the one against Hawaii in '08..WOW...almost everyone on the team put a hand on him.

 

[rtrn2glory]

Personally I'm more worried about our punting game. Defense should hav been rewarded better than they wer for key 3 and outs. Not to mention field position will be very important early on with our inexperience on offense