Rumored Violations

[pkt77242]

I really disagree. All Father Jenkins is saying is that if these players should have been ineligible, then the University will vacate those wins. It's symbolic, but significant. It is a message that says ND is still committed to doing things right. It says that ND will not take the easy way out; it won't use wriggle room within the rules, to show favor to athletics. And that's exactly the kind of attitude that ND is built on. It may be a different world in college football, but it has always been the way of Notre Dame.

If I were Swarbrick, and the contention that ND has incredibly few academic assistants available to athletes in comparison to other schools, I would use this incident as a catalyst to lobby for extra academic assistant positions within the Athletics Dept.

How is not vacating wins showing favor to athletics? The NCAA rules are very clear, if you knowingly play an ineligible player you vacate if not you don't. There is very little to no wiggle room. It is about following the letter of the law. What the ND administration is doing is saying that we want to punish the team and thus we are going to go above and beyond the required punishment. If you believe that that is justified then fine but this isn't about showing favor to athletics.

 

[sfk324]

It's not semi-public. Their names are in articles all over the interwebs! It's one thing to punish a football player the same as any student, but these aren't most students. Three of them are probably considering a career of football post-ND. Even if the university clears their names, that doesn't change anything in the court of public opinion.

Their names were out before the university made any statement, so that is definitely not the unviersity's fault. And it is semi-public in that their names are out, but their alleged transgressions are not. Despite the gossip found on this and other message boards, nobody knows what is alleged to have occurred or what is now occurring.

 

[ulukinatme]

Everything in engineering was curved. It's what made it hell.

I once pulled a very solid A in solid mechanics... so solid that I didn't study for the final and used my time elsewhere. At a 98% it was virtually impossible to drop my grade below the 92 that the syllabus said I needed for an A.

Then I got a B+ as my final grade, and the professor explains that the class did "so well" that he had to adjust grades down. I raised hell over this and what they came back with was "the grading scale on the syllabus was only a suggestion."

How does this relate to the "scandal"? I'm not sure. But fuck Michigan.

That's just stupid. I've never succumbed to the idea that a curve makes sense. I understand the principle of bell curves and results, and if nearly an entire class is scoring at a D level on a test then grades probably should be slightly adjusted because the professor probably didn't word some questions correctly or added something that wasn't covered...but in my opinion it makes no sense punishing students with a crappier grade because most of a class ended up doing really well on an exam. How is that fair or make a lick of sense? The prof wrote the test, and you punish the kids for doing well on it. It's all horseshit.

Oh, and yeah, fuck Michigan.

 

[sfk324]

I really disagree. All Father Jenkins is saying is that if these players should have been ineligible, then the University will vacate those wins. It's symbolic, but significant. It is a message that says ND is still committed to doing things right. It says that ND will not take the easy way out; it won't use wriggle room within the rules, to show favor to athletics. And that's exactly the kind of attitude that ND is built on. It may be a different world in college football, but it has always been the way of Notre Dame.

If I were Swarbrick, and the contention that ND has incredibly few academic assistants available to athletes in comparison to other schools, I would use this incident as a catalyst to lobby for extra academic assistant positions within the Athletics Dept.

THANK. YOU. The amount of posts earlier in this thread that were along the lines of "I'm proud ND is different and will do what's right," vs. the current wave of "WTF? Why are we doing things like this?!?! FOOTBALL!" is somewhat disheartening.

 

[gkIrish]

That's just stupid. I've never succumbed to the idea that a curve makes sense. I understand the principle of bell curves and results, and if nearly an entire class is scoring at a D level on a test than grades probably should be slightly adjusted because the professor probably didn't word some questions correctly or added something that wasn't covered...but in my opinion it makes no sense punishing students with a crappier grade because most of a class ended up doing really well on an exam. How is that fair or make a lick of sense? The prof wrote the test, and you punish the kids for doing well on it. It's all horseshit.

Oh, and yeah, fuck Michigan.

You would really hate applying to law school. Admission is based almost entirely on your GPA and LSAT score. So my above-average GPA at ND (compared to my classmates) was very average compared to the GPAs of all the kids applying to law school that went to MSU, Oregon, Ole Miss, , etc.

 

[IrishLax]

I really disagree. All Father Jenkins is saying is that if these players should have been ineligible, then the University will vacate those wins.

If I were Swarbrick, and the contention that ND has incredibly few academic assistants available to athletes in comparison to other schools, I would use this incident as a catalyst to lobby for extra academic assistant positions within the Athletics Dept.

THANK. YOU. The amount of posts earlier in this thread that were along the lines of "I'm proud ND is different and will do what's right," vs. the current wave of "WTF? Why are we doing things like this?!?! FOOTBALL!" is somewhat disheartening.

Sorry, and I truly mean this in the most respectful way possible, but with respect to the bolded you two are idealists and part of the problem.

In theory, I 100% agree with what you're saying, but pragmatically that's not the way it works.

There is no black and white. The intent could be to say what you're saying, but the way it will play is "we're vacating wins, which means we as an institution did something wrong, because that is the only time wins are vacated." You CANNOT decouple vacating wins from NCAA violations, because the only grounds for ever vacating wins is an NCAA violation.

So it's going to publicly have the polar opposite effect of the intent. And you have to be able to think past the idealism and realize that.

 

[Rhode Irish]

You would really hate applying to law school. Admission is based almost entirely on your GPA and LSAT score. So my above-average GPA at ND (compared to my classmates) was very average compared to the GPAs of all the kids applying to law school that went to MSU, Oregon, Ole Miss, , etc.

Admissions offices aren't staffed by zombie robots. They know how to interpret GPAs from different undergrad institutions and weigh them appropriately.

 

[kmoose]

Sorry, and I truly mean this in the most respectful way possible, but with respect to the bolded you two are idealists and part of the problem.

In theory, I 100% agree with what you're saying, but pragmatically that's not the way it works.

There is no black and white. The intent could be to say what you're saying, but the way it will play is "we're vacating wins, which means we as an institution did something wrong, because that is the only time wins are vacated." You CANNOT decouple vacating wins from NCAA violations, because the only grounds for ever vacating wins is an NCAA violation.

So it's going to publicly have the polar opposite effect of the intent. And you have to be able to think past the idealism and realize that.

So ,what, people are going to start hating Notre Dame?

Or exaggerating every one of the University's little foibles?

I understand what you are saying, but I just don't see the fallout as changing much, if any, of the status quo.

 

[sfk324]

Sorry, and I truly mean this in the most respectful way possible, but with respect to the bolded you two are idealists and part of the problem.

In theory, I 100% agree with what you're saying, but pragmatically that's not the way it works.

There is no black and white. The intent could be to say what you're saying, but the way it will play is "we're vacating wins, which means we as an institution did something wrong, because that is the only time wins are vacated." You CANNOT decouple vacating wins from NCAA violations, because the only grounds for ever vacating wins is an NCAA violation.

So it's going to publicly have the polar opposite effect of the intent. And you have to be able to think past the idealism and realize that.

And I disagree with you, both from what you think it says and your assertion we are blinded idealists. If we are to have any integrity on the issue of winning the right way, it may unfortunately include vacating wins in situations like this. Those wins are hollow if we aren't holding ourselves to the standards we want others to follow. That others don't is to their detriment, but we can still do what is right. Not doing so makes us hypocrites of the highest order.

 

[IrishLax]

And I disagree with you, both from what you think it says and your assertion we are blinded idealists. If we are to have any integrity on the issue of winning the right way, it may unfortunately include vacating wins in situations like this. Those wins are hollow if we aren't holding ourselves to the standards we want others to follow. That others don't is to their detriment, but we can still do what is right. Not doing so makes us hypocrites of the highest order.

Explain. How are they "hollow" when no violations were committed?

 

[connor_in]

Sorry, and I truly mean this in the most respectful way possible, but with respect to the bolded you two are idealists and part of the problem.

In theory, I 100% agree with what you're saying, but pragmatically that's not the way it works.

There is no black and white. The intent could be to say what you're saying, but the way it will play is "we're vacating wins, which means we as an institution did something wrong, because that is the only time wins are vacated." You CANNOT decouple vacating wins from NCAA violations, because the only grounds for ever vacating wins is an NCAA violation.

So it's going to publicly have the polar opposite effect of the intent. And you have to be able to think past the idealism and realize that.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/dKsDjpKr2Mk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>




"The world is gray"

 

[tussin]

And I disagree with you, both from what you think it says and your assertion we are blinded idealists. If we are to have any integrity on the issue of winning the right way, it may unfortunately include vacating wins in situations like this. Those wins are hollow if we aren't holding ourselves to the standards we want others to follow. That others don't is to their detriment, but we can still do what is right. Not doing so makes us hypocrites of the highest order.

That's ridiculous though. Is the ND standard for vacating wins really going to be if an athlete independently committed some sort of academic deception during the season in question (with no evidence of actual NCAA violations)? That's makes no sense and it's unfair to the other players on the team. Punish the individual, not the team.

What if it was a walk-on? Would the team still need to vacate victories? Would this have even be a publicized issue? Has ND vacated wins in the past for other sports when their athletes were caught cheating? This can't possibly be the first time it happened.

 

[IrishLax]

That's ridiculous though. Is the ND standard for vacating wins really going to be if an athlete independently committed some sort of academic deception during the season in question (with no evidence of actual NCAA violations)? That's makes no sense and it's unfair to the other players on the team. Punish the individual, not the team.

What if it was a walk-on? Would the team still need to vacate victories? Would this have even be a publicized issue? Has ND vacated wins in the past for other sports when their athletes were caught cheating? This can't possibly be the first time it happened.

Yeah, you get it. The kind of position he presented cannot be defended once you start to break it down.

The opinion is built on platitudes that do not stand up to reason. If every school in the country vacated every victory in which any player during the season committed an honor code violation there would be literally zero victories in college football. Which is why the system is set up how it is: you only vacate if there is a violation. No violation, no vacating.

We're the only ones who can't seem to grasp how academic violations and athletic violations are to be decoupled.

 

[gkIrish]

Admissions offices aren't staffed by zombie robots. They know how to interpret GPAs from different undergrad institutions and weigh them appropriately.

That's not how it works. If you aren't a minority and have nothing truly unique going for you, I can predict whether you will get in to a school or not about 90% of the time solely based on your GPA and LSAT regardless of what school you went to. But this is really off-topic now so let's not discuss any further.

 

[BGIF]

In general, I'm extremely skeptical that these players are getting a fair shake. I think the proof is in the pudding that this is a concentrated effort to inflict as much harm on the football program as possible...there aren't many other reasonable explanations for why you'd dig through thousands of emails or vacate wins just because you feel like it.

Interesting statement.

So, Jenkins, Swarbrick, The General Counsel, the Compliance Officer, and an unnamed professor are a cabal "to inflict as much harm on the football program as possible".

Jenkins was the guy that went to Monk to get rid of Willingham so he could fly to Utah as the incoming ND President to secure the college coach most ND fans at the time walked on water.

When Urban's wife wanted Florida winters, Jenkins hired Weis in a scramble with Kevin White as his albatross.

Jenkins approved the training table no prior ND president would allow.

Jenkins approved the student athletes to spend most of their non class time in the Gug where prior president's pushed Residentiality.

Jenkins hired Jack Swarbrick the first AD since Dick Rosenthal that WASN'T trying to downgrade the football in accordance with the directives of President Malloy and V. P. Beauchamp.

A spirit of cooperation between the Head Football and Admissions was achieved under Jenkins watch.

Jenkins replaced the head of Res Life creating a lesser draconian environment.

Micheal Floyd and the football programs were direct beneficiaries of Jenkins forward thinking. And Floyd didn't get a free ride.

ND had their first undefeated season in 24 years and 6 ND head coaches during Jenkins 9th year at the helm.

Jenkins O.K.ed the removal of The Traditional Grass

Jenkins approved the Stadium Skyboxes


I can go chapter and verse on Malloy and Company dismembering a successful program. You were what about 4 or 6 at the time.

Fr Ted and Fr Joyce were praised for rebuilding the program but that was AFTER Ted forced out ND's greatest coach ever, Leahy. Then he hired Brennan as HC although he has no college HC experience while he simultaneously cut scholarships. Five years later he hired Kuharich. Then he hired Ara BUT only after Ara turned down the job over admissions, scholarships, and other program issues.

ND's president in 1930 was the first to downgrade the program after Rock's death when he hired Hunk, cut scholarships drastically and bunches of players left school as academics were tightened.

 

[IrishLax]

I can go chapter and verse on Malloy and Company dismembering a successful program. You were what about 4 or 6 at the time.

Fr Ted and Fr Joyce were praised for rebuilding the program but that was AFTER Ted forced out ND's greatest coach ever, Leahy. Then he hired Brennan as HC although he has no college HC experience while he simultaneously cut scholarships. Five years later he hired Kuharich. Then he hired Ara BUT only after Ara turned down the job over admissions, scholarships, and other program issues.

ND's president in 1930 was the first to downgrade the program after Rock's death when he hired Hunk, cut scholarships drastically and bunches of players left school as academics were tightened.

I'm very aware of that history, and I'm not referring to Jenkins or Swarbick. I'm referring to those who are mid-level academics in charge of things like deciding to comb through years of emails to catch every honor code violation they can.

 

[sfk324]

Explain. How are they "hollow" when no violations were committed?

If they have not only one but multiple players who were ineligble while competing, that is definitely a violation.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Interesting statement.

So, Jenkins, Swarbrick, The General Counsel, the Compliance Officer, and an unnamed professor are a cabal "to inflict as much harm on the football program as possible".

Jenkins was the guy that went to Monk to get rid of Willingham so he could fly to Utah as the incoming ND President to secure the college coach most ND fans at the time walked on water.

When Urban's wife wanted Florida winters, Jenkins hired Weis in a scramble with Kevin White as his albatross.

Jenkins approved the training table no prior ND president would allow.

Jenkins approved the student athletes to spend most of their non class time in the Gug where prior president's pushed Residentiality.

Jenkins hired Jack Swarbrick the first AD since Dick Rosenthal that WASN'T trying to downgrade the football in accordance with the directives of President Malloy and V. P. Beauchamp.

A spirit of cooperation between the Head Football and Admissions was achieved under Jenkins watch.

Jenkins replaced the head of Res Life creating a lesser draconian environment.

Micheal Floyd and the football programs were direct beneficiaries of Jenkins forward thinking. And Floyd didn't get a free ride.

ND had their first undefeated season in 24 years and 6 ND head coaches during Jenkins 9th year at the helm.

Jenkins O.K.ed the removal of The Traditional Grass

Jenkins approved the Stadium Skyboxes


I can go chapter and verse on Malloy and Company dismembering a successful program. You were what about 4 or 6 at the time.

Fr Ted and Fr Joyce were praised for rebuilding the program but that was AFTER Ted forced out ND's greatest coach ever, Leahy. Then he hired Brennan as HC although he has no college HC experience while he simultaneously cut scholarships. Five years later he hired Kuharich. Then he hired Ara BUT only after Ara turned down the job over admissions, scholarships, and other program issues.

ND's president in 1930 was the first to downgrade the program after Rock's death when he hired Hunk, cut scholarships drastically and bunches of players left school as academics were tightened.

Sid enote here...I thought Meyer turned down ND, because they were not going to give him any admissions exception like they did when Holtz was coach.

 

[sfk324]

I'm very aware of that history, and I'm not referring to Jenkins or Swarbick. I'm referring to those who are mid-level academics in charge of things like deciding to comb through years of emails to catch every honor code violation they can.

"Mid-level academics" don't have that discretion. That's why OGC is involved.

 

[IrishLax]

If they have not only one but multiple players who were ineligble while competing, that is definitely a violation.

Nope. Flat out wrong.

A violation only occurs when you KNOWINGLY play an ineligible player. You have to have known or should have known at the time of the game that the player wasn't eligible.

The rules are written that way specifically for cases like this... so that if you play a player at the start of the season and halfway through it turns out they did something wrong back at the start of the semester you aren't on the hook for playing them in those games.

 

[koonja]

Good stuff BGIF.

Maybe I'm the only one who doesn't know a lot about Jenkins.

What's the word on this guy? President, powerful, I get that. Where do his allegiences lie in regards to athletics?

 

[sfk324]

Yeah, you get it. The kind of position he presented cannot be defended once you start to break it down.

The opinion is built on platitudes that do not stand up to reason. If every school in the country vacated every victory in which any player during the season committed an honor code violation there would be literally zero victories in college football. Which is why the system is set up how it is: you only vacate if there is a violation. No violation, no vacating.

We're the only ones who can't seem to grasp how academic violations and athletic violations are to be decoupled.

Again, the fact that other schools don't hold their student-athletes accountable to the same degree as ND is not ND's problem. In order to be eligible to compete, you need to be in academic good standing. We already know other schools are significantly more lax in giving their players the ability to be in good standing.

As to your last paragraph, I would argue we are the only ones who DO get it. Athletics are a privilege that go along with being in good standing. If you can't cut it, you can't play. That's why they are "student-athletes."

 

[IrishLax]

"Mid-level academics" don't have that discretion. That's why OGC is involved.

Sure they do. When the case is first brought to someone, they had to choose how in-depth they were going to look, etc. They decided that they were going to not just handle the issue at hand, but instead go searching through 5 years of email history. That was a discretionary choice.

You are 100% correct though that at this juncture, the buck stops with the highest on the food chain. Don't know who is the head of the department in charge of this kind of inquiry, but the ball is in the court of them, Jenkins, and other senior leadership.

 

[BobbyMac]

Woohoo post 2000!*

After looking myself it says I'm post 2001 so I willingly vacate a faux congrats post even though IE has no issue with it.

Sorry if this double posts or is a double post having troubles with the ole iPhone

Odd... now I'm #2000.

Thanks for vacating your faux congrats so quickly... That's very Irish of ya!

.

 

[ResLife Hero]

I'm curious to where the "consolidated effort to do harm to the program" stuff is coming from. Having worked with 2 people on the leadership council, and from what others have mentioned about Jenkins and Swarbrick, I'd think the program was fairly well protected from internal issues.

Seriously asking because I never saw this when I sat in on leadership meetings.

 

[NDohio]

Good stuff BGIF.

Maybe I'm the only one who doesn't know a lot about Jenkins.

What's the word on this guy? President, powerful, I get that. Where do his allegiences lie in regards to athletics?

He cheers for Notre Dame. Duh!

 

[JTLA]

The Blue Dress vs. Email

The Blue Dress vs. Email

I'm very aware of that history, and I'm not referring to Jenkins or Swarbick. I'm referring to those who are mid-level academics in charge of things like deciding to comb through years of emails to catch every honor code violation they can.

I'm totally with you on this, but I think I understand the concern for going through the emails. Email acts like DNA only worse. If Jenkins or Swarbrick is going to put their name on this investigation, they have to be 100% certain there is no DNA where it shouldn't be. If he says these are the only 4 players or this was only in 2012 or this was only 'help', then he has to know that the emails support that.

In short, what I'm trying to say is that anyone ever on any email chain could forward said email chain and have a 'blue dress' so to speak that counters what they say. That would be truly devastating to the university and their careers for that matter.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Interesting statement.

So, Jenkins, Swarbrick, The General Counsel, the Compliance Officer, and an unnamed professor are a cabal "to inflict as much harm on the football program as possible".

Jenkins was the guy that went to Monk to get rid of Willingham so he could fly to Utah as the incoming ND President to secure the college coach most ND fans at the time walked on water.

When Urban's wife wanted Florida winters, Jenkins hired Weis in a scramble with Kevin White as his albatross.

Jenkins approved the training table no prior ND president would allow.

Jenkins approved the student athletes to spend most of their non class time in the Gug where prior president's pushed Residentiality.

Jenkins hired Jack Swarbrick the first AD since Dick Rosenthal that WASN'T trying to downgrade the football in accordance with the directives of President Malloy and V. P. Beauchamp.

A spirit of cooperation between the Head Football and Admissions was achieved under Jenkins watch.

Jenkins replaced the head of Res Life creating a lesser draconian environment.

Micheal Floyd and the football programs were direct beneficiaries of Jenkins forward thinking. And Floyd didn't get a free ride.

ND had their first undefeated season in 24 years and 6 ND head coaches during Jenkins 9th year at the helm.

Jenkins O.K.ed the removal of The Traditional Grass

Jenkins approved the Stadium Skyboxes


I can go chapter and verse on Malloy and Company dismembering a successful program. You were what about 4 or 6 at the time.

Fr Ted and Fr Joyce were praised for rebuilding the program but that was AFTER Ted forced out ND's greatest coach ever, Leahy. Then he hired Brennan as HC although he has no college HC experience while he simultaneously cut scholarships. Five years later he hired Kuharich. Then he hired Ara BUT only after Ara turned down the job over admissions, scholarships, and other program issues.

ND's president in 1930 was the first to downgrade the program after Rock's death when he hired Hunk, cut scholarships drastically and bunches of players left school as academics were tightened.

Ted and Monk, a la, White did a lot of harm to the football program. It was too late before they found the harm they did to the university, and academics, as well. There has always been a school of thought that the football program, and the blue collar Irish mentality was demeaning to the greatness of the University. To get great football players schools have had to recruit from beneath the upper classes.

Proof of this lies in the early dominance of the Ivy League schools. There became a point where they would no longer do what it takes; although if you are wealthy or powerful, your progeny can still "C" out at some really good schools. This is deeper than individuals and stories. This is deeper than oversimplified stories.

Not only is BGIF dead on, he doesn't pander to the individuals reputations or discount the whole sordid moral-social component. Frankly, as soon as ND gained success, people wanted to ditch the image and attitudes that got them there. As BGIF points out his happened at least about every 20 years. Father Ted is the best example of an administrator that showed up on both ends of the spectrum. Monk is the best example of someone who rode the pendulum toward the academic end, and fell off on the return downswing. With Kevin White.

Could be happening again. If it is it will be my last attempt to watch 'em pick up the pieces.

Also, I have talked to a number of really intelligent people. From people that know, the Thursday night rumors, ahead of the Friday rumors (of NCAA origin) that included vacating wins, have to have come from someone with inside knowledge at ND. Whether it was someone that was questioned in the situation, an employee, or a member of the investigation. The very earliest stuff had to come from within ND!

 

[sfk324]

Nope. Flat out wrong.

A violation only occurs when you KNOWINGLY play an ineligible player. You have to have known or should have known at the time of the game that the player wasn't eligible.

The rules are written that way specifically for cases like this... so that if you play a player at the start of the season and halfway through it turns out they did something wrong back at the start of the semester you aren't on the hook for playing them in those games.

Explain Derrick Rose and Memphis in context of your erroneous contention. Memphis and Calipari knew nothing about it, but they vacated all wins from that season.

 

[JTLA]

Nope. Flat out wrong.

A violation only occurs when you KNOWINGLY play an ineligible player. You have to have known or should have known at the time of the game that the player wasn't eligible.

The rules are written that way specifically for cases like this... so that if you play a player at the start of the season and halfway through it turns out they did something wrong back at the start of the semester you aren't on the hook for playing them in those games.

I don't know the facts of each case, but I found an article which gives a history of vacated victories.

Here Are Your All-Time Vacated Standings For Division I College Football