Re: Ron Brown -- Long Rant

magogian

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Re: Ron Brown -- Long Rant

From what I understand, Ron Brown has taken a public stance against a local ordinance that would ban discrimination against gays/lesbians. And because of his public speech, he is being eviscerated in the press.

For example, there is this gem from Gene Wojciechowski at ESPN: "And if he continues to confuse faith with a person's fundamental right not to be discriminated against, then Perlman and Osborne should fire him. Because while his religious beliefs are his own -- and his opinions protected under the First Amendment -- Brown remains a representative of a university whose core values stress the 'diversity of ideas and people.'"

I love it. "Diversity of ideas and people" but ONLY those ideas and people that I, Gene W., and others in the PC crowd agree with.

From what I understand, Rob Brown has never said that he would discriminate against a gay player on the basis of the player's sexual orientation. If Brown did, then I would support his firing. But I have seen no allegation to this effect. Notably, the outcry concerns his general speech against homosexuality in general.

I suspect the very public outcry over Brown's statements is one of the issues he is trying to raise. As this episode illlustrates, all too often the thrust of these "non-discrimination" laws is not so much to prevent actual discrimination on that basis (firing because of sexual orientation, etc., which is generally unobjectionable to ban) but to silence any and public debate or dissent on the broader issues.

There is nothing wrong with people objecting to and debating the substance of Brown's public statements on homosexuality. But as this episode illustrates, all too often the "tolerant" and "diversity" crowd utterly pervert the words to mean toleration of and diversity in a relatively narrow set of ideas (pro-gay, anti-Christian, etc.). If you are an anti-Christian gay man like David Savage, you can publically attacked high school students in a speech for their Christian beliefs, use sexual innuendo, and essentially **** all over the Bible. After a number of students began walking out on the speech, Savage began heckling them in front of everyone. Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens | FOX News & Commentary: Todd Starnes There was no sincere apology from Savage or the speech organizers. They just said they were sorry if anyone was offended. LOL.

Ron Brown's manner of communicating his speech is far less objectionable, yet he must be silenced because of the substance of his speech . David Savage promotes the narrow set of ideas that are in favor with the "tolerate and diverse" crowd so it doesn't matter that his manner of communication is patently offensive.

In the end, every time I hear somone laud "diversity" and "toleration" I laugh on the inside. It is such a joke. Diversity and Toleration are noble ideas, but have been perverted in practice. Today, all it means is complete and protected speech for those who support a narrow range of ideas, but rejection, public ridicule, and an attempt to silence the speech from those who do not support the ideas of the "tolerant and diverse" crowd.

I, for one, am sick of it.
 

phgreek

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well stated...

I don't care which side folks are on...hijacking the intent of laws and words to silence an oposing viewpoint just can't and won't be tolerated...
 

notredomer23

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Great post....

It annoys me how the writer tries to portray brown. Oh no, he doesn't want anti-discrimination laws. This is my personal belief but anti-discrimination laws like this are just a load of crap and half the time lead to extra rights. The topic of someone being gay(or straight for that matter) should not matter.
 

MNIrishman

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While I've never heard of this guy, I agree with you. Diversity of ideas should mean acceptance of objectionable ideas along with mainstream ones. You make the point that him discriminating based on his philosophical objection is ethically wrong , and this is an important point. He is entitled to his opinion, as are we all. He is not entitled to use that opinion to infringe on the rights of others.
 

ugo2011

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Ignoring the whole left wing conspiracy argument for a second, the fact is that Ron Brown has actively campaigned for his belief that that gays do not have the right to not face discrimination on the basis of their sexuality. His employer, the University of Nebraska, has a policy stating the direct opposite.

No one disagrees that Ron Brown has the right to say and believe whatever he wants. But you want employers to be forced to tolerate employees who have the clear and stated mission of advocating against one of the employer's fundamental principles (in this case, non-discrimination). That sounds worse that this left wing silencing campaign you are referring to.
 

Rhode Irish

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Wow. The OP is one of the most confused, idiotic things I've ever read. I can't fully respond because I am too incensed to say what I want without getting banned. Ron Brown is a piece of ****, and I hope he is fired and blackballed for his ignorant and vile views.
 
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magogian

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Wow. The OP is one of the most confused, idiotic things I've ever read. I can't fully respond because I am too incensed to say what I want without getting banned. Ron Brown is a piece of ****, and I hope he is fired and blackballed for his ignorant and vile views.

Thanks for illustrating the point so nicely and the neg. rep! That last part hurt the most . . .
 

Anchorman

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Faith doesn't grant someone the right to discriminate any more than it does the right to commit any other type of crime. Huge fan of the Gene W article and Brown deserves every ounce of backlash he gets. To try and hide behind faith and allow discrimination to continue is cowardly and pathetic.

if you actually took the time to listen to the Savage video, you'd hear exactly what many Catholics, including myself, have trouble with accepting. You think high school kids have never heard the word 'pansy-assed'?' Give me a break. There is really nothing in the video that even comes close to attacking anyone personally nor to 'pissing all over the bible'. I've heard Theology professors and priests here at ND speak more pointedly towards this.

The savage vid, for whoever is curious:
Dan Savage discusses bible at High School Journalism convention - YouTube
 
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Rhode Irish

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I just don't understand how someone could be capable of putting together a coherent 500 word post, yet not have the faculty to understand or recognize the inherent difference between (1) being intolerant of who a person is when it has no impact on you and (2) being intolerant of a person's viewpoint that is discriminatory and potentially damaging to people who haven't done anything wrong.

For example, if you are a racist and you proudly declare that you "hate" minorities, and then someone says they "hate" you because you are a racist, those two "hatreds" are not equivalent. One is reprehensible and one is noble. The backlash to this foolish man's foolish comments is heroic, in my estimation. The world would be better were it rid of people like Mr. Brown. He and people who share in his ignorance are a detriment to humanity.
 
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Freedom of speech means you are free to say what you want and not get arrested. It doesn't mean you can say what you want and people have to live with it. Ron Brown is a hateful bigot who deserves to be fired over his idiotic viewpoints, and yes homophobia is idiotic with absolutely ZERO exceptions, just like hating blacks, Jews, or any race is idiotic as well.
 

irishog77

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Is not approving of homosexuals behavior (or even condemning it) the same thing as HATING homosexuals?
 

Rhode Irish

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Is not approving of homosexuals behavior (or even condemning it) the same thing as HATING homosexuals?

It is equally as stupid and just as poor of a reflection on your character, but I suppose if you kept your disapproval to yourself then it would be less harmful. Once you inject yourself into an issue that has nothing to do with you, any meaningful difference between disapproval and hatred vanishes in my view. What reason would a person have for voicing their unsolicited opinion on the matter other than malice toward those of whom he disapproves?

Nobody gives a great goddamn what Ron Brown (who?) thinks about this issue. It does not impact him in any meaningful way. If he doesn't approve of homosexual behavior, he should refrain from participating in it. Boom. Problem solved. Beyond that, it doesn't matter what he thinks of it.
 

CarrollVermin

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Interestingly, the University of Notre Dame recently took a similar stance towards the gay, lesbian, and transgender community. After the student government had passed a resolution supporting adding sexual orientation to the University's non-discrimination clause, the University chose not to add the clause.

I love Notre Dame, I was very fortunate to graduate from the University and I owe much of my adult success to the education I received and the networks that I formed while I was there. Instances like this, however, make me question the stance the University takes. We are called for Social Justice and Social Responsibility. We are called to serve a just and loving God, and uphold the values of a just and loving society, then the University acts hypocritically in its own actions.

The gay, lesbian, and transgender fight is no different than what every minority group has faced before it. We tend to forget that they are human beings and as such should be afforded the same rights and liberties that other Americans have: a right to live their life according to their own choices, free from persecution and injustice. Just as they do not have a right to impose their morality upon us, we do not have the right to impose ours on them.

When the people like Brown, or institutions like Notre Dame take their stands against civil liberty and justice, we are likely to commit the same injustice against them that other generations have forced upon others.
 

magogian

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It is equally as stupid and just as poor of a reflection on your character, but I suppose if you kept your disapproval to yourself then it would be less harmful. Once you inject yourself into an issue that has nothing to do with you, any meaningful difference between disapproval and hatred vanishes in my view. What other reason would a person have for voicing their unsolicited opinion on the matter other than malice toward those of whom he disapproves?

Nobody gives a great goddamn what Ron Brown (who?) thinks about this issue. It does not impact him in any meaningful way. If he doesn't approve of homosexual behavior, he should refrain from participating in it. Boom. Problem solved. Beyond that, it doesn't matter what he thinks of it.

He voiced his opinion because there was a public debate on a bill/ordinance. But I guess those that disagree you with should be prevented from their voicing their opinion on matters of public concern, such as laws.

What a way to run a democratic republic!
 

magogian

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Interestingly, the University of Notre Dame recently took a similar stance towards the gay, lesbian, and transgender community. After the student government had passed a resolution supporting adding sexual orientation to the University's non-discrimination clause, the University chose not to add the clause.

I love Notre Dame, I was very fortunate to graduate from the University and I owe much of my adult success to the education I received and the networks that I formed while I was there. Instances like this, however, make me question the stance the University takes. We are called for Social Justice and Social Responsibility. We are called to serve a just and loving God, and uphold the values of a just and loving society, then the University acts hypocritically in its own actions.

The gay, lesbian, and transgender fight is no different than what every minority group has faced before it. We tend to forget that they are human beings and as such should be afforded the same rights and liberties that other Americans have: a right to live their life according to their own choices, free from persecution and injustice. Just as they do not have a right to impose their morality upon us, we do not have the right to impose ours on them.

When the people like Brown, or institutions like Notre Dame take their stands against civil liberty and justice, we are likely to commit the same injustice against them that other generations have forced upon others.

+1 to this post. Thank you for responding in a thoughtful manner.
 

Rhode Irish

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He voiced his opinion because there was a public debate on a bill/ordinance. But I guess those that disagree you with should be prevented from their voicing their opinion on matters of public concern, such as laws.

What a way to run a democratic republic!

I don't remember anyone suggesting that he be thrown in jail. Legally, he has every right to voice is barbaric opinion on the matter. But when your opinion exposes your reprehensible character, you should be ridiculed and shamed. Tact is independent of the law. Just because he has the legal right to expose himself as a bigot doesn't mean he should take every opportunity to do so.
 

bert2834

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For those who don't know a gay or lesbian or transgender person, trust me, it is not their choice.

My oldest brother is a homosexual and he was born that way. I and everyone else knew he was gay before he did.

People say it is a choice because some homosexuals have had it beat into their heads that being gay is wrong and against the Bible, so they choose to hide that part of themselves. Causing huge stress on everyone in their family.

Well, if it is so against the Bible and God makes every living thing, why does he make people gay?

I don't want to get into a whole Bible or church thing, but I do not believe in either even though I believe in a higher power. Just think that man ruined both.
 

mgriff

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He can say whatever he wants, but if people disagree with his opinion, they are free to spew the same hate towards him that he spews towards the gay community. Discrimination is discrimination whether it is for racial reasons, or sexual orientation.

The Bible, let's take a literal interpretation of a historical document that has no basis is historical fact. Even one of the cardinals from Australia recently stated that he believes the story of Adam and Eve is a fable.

People are free to believe what they wish, but when that turns into hatred or discrimination, which is exactly what this man preaches, then he should be ready to receive the same treatment in kind. An eye for an eye as that same text states.

If we can keep this civil I see no reason why we can't discuss difficult topics. The key is being respectful and understanding that people have different views. While I was raised in an Irish Catholic community and got up to the sacrament of confirmation, I no longer practice or even believe in the teachings of the Church. I'm not even sure how much I believe in God anymore, but I certainly do not buy into organized religion. A weird statement coming from a fan of the golden dome, but I have a massive amount of respect for many religious principles and the work ND and religious organizations conduct. I still, however, love ND football and it brings me into contact with many of you on here who are devout Catholics. I still respect your beliefs even though they differ from my own. We disagree about religion but ND football brought us together, so we should always be cognizant of that fact when debate on here.
 
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tadman95

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Being in NC who has a ballot amendment on Tuesday affirming marriage is between a man and a woman among other things, this is a hot topic around here.

I always like to take the opinion to the extreme; if there were enough "gay" people to force a vote to outlaw "heterosexual" marriage, would that be okay? Well of course not! So how do heterosexuals have the rights to limit the rights of gay people. On the basis of their religion is against one of the very foundations this country was founded on.

Another way is to consider it is to look at the world's population from a statistical point of view. With almost 7 billion people on the planet, the chances that everyone is born heterosexual, no homosexuality, is "zero".

I think this is more about driving voters to the polls at the expense of the civil rights of a small segment of the population. A democracy is NOT majority rule!
 

irishroo

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For those who don't know a gay or lesbian or transgender person, trust me, it is not their choice.

My oldest brother is a homosexual and he was born that way. I and everyone else knew he was gay before he did.

People say it is a choice because some homosexuals have had it beat into their heads that being gay is wrong and against the Bible, so they choose to hide that part of themselves. Causing huge stress on everyone in their family.

Well, if it is so against the Bible and God makes every living thing, why does he make people gay?

I don't want to get into a whole Bible or church thing, but I do not believe in either even though I believe in a higher power. Just think that man ruined both.

You'd be pretty hard-pressed to find someone who has actually done any amount of reflection, research, or just put a decent amount of thought into it who still believes homosexuality is a choice. Plenty of people think homosexuality is wrong (I'm not one of them), but not many still believe that gay people choose to be gay. This notion has been all but entirely disproven, and the science is right there for anyone who wishes to see it.
 

Redbar

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In the end, every time I hear somone laud "diversity" and "toleration" I laugh on the inside. It is such a joke. Diversity and Toleration are noble ideas, but have been perverted in practice. Today, all it means is complete and protected speech for those who support a narrow range of ideas, but rejection, public ridicule, and an attempt to silence the speech from those who do not support the ideas of the "tolerant and diverse" crowd.

I, for one, am sick of it.

Wow. So what we need is more intolerate, homogeneous thought out there. That usually works out well. So you don't like political correctness or stifled speech, the opposite of that is not to defend intolleration and a disgust for diversity. Just because noble ideas are often hard to achieve in reality, we should not prop up small mindedness as a more suitable reality.


For example, if you are a racist and you proudly declare that you "hate" minorities, and then someone says they "hate" you because you are a racist, those two "hatreds" are not equivalent. One is reprehensible and one is noble. The backlash to this foolish man's foolish comments is heroic, in my estimation. The world would be better were it rid of people like Mr. Brown. He and people who share in his ignorance are a detriment to humanity.

Very interesting.

Nobody gives a great goddamn what Ron Brown (who?) thinks about this issue. It does not impact him in any meaningful way. If he doesn't approve of homosexual behavior, he should refrain from participating in it. Boom. Problem solved. Beyond that, it doesn't matter what he thinks of it.

Great solution. Reps.
 

BobD

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Well here it goes....another one of those threads where I should keep my mouth shut but I can't.

I have three disagreements with my church.

1. The stance they take on homosexuality.

2. They don't allow priests to marry.

3. __________________________. (I don't want to discuss #3 here)

I believe #1 and 2 are kind of intertwined because if they did allow priest to marry, they'd be a little p!ssed at who many of them wanted to marry.


Hitting the post tab, then covering my head.
 
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HereComeTheIrish

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Well here it goes....another one of those threads where I should keep my mouth shut but I can't.

I have three disagreements with my church.

1. The stance they take on homosexuality.

2. They don't allow priests to marry.

3. __________________________. (I don't want to discuss #3 here)

I believe #1 and 2 are kind of intertwined because if they did allow priest to marry, they'd be a little p!ssed at who many of them wanted to marry.


Hitting the post tab, then covering my head.

no need... Speak your mind freely. I completely agree.
 

stlnd01

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4 thoughts:

1: Who's Ron Brown?

2: Whoever he is, who gives a **** what he thinks about some municipal non-discrimination ordinance?

3: I just love it when bigots spew their bigotry and then claim "free speech" as some sort of justification. You're absolutely free to say whatever pops into your small mind, and I'll defend that forever. But I'm just as free to think less of you for it. Or write a column or boycott you or pull my sponsorship or whatever I feel is appropriate short of criminal charges.

4: Keep that mouth open, Bob.
 

ACamp1900

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For example, if you are a racist and you proudly declare that you "hate" minorities, and then someone says they "hate" you because you are a racist, those two "hatreds" are not equivalent.

wrong.

hate is hate... and this type of thinking is what is wrong with the PC crowd... who decides when it is suddenly okay to discriminate on a certain person?? You can't say you hate someone for hating someone and not come off as a total, complete hypocrite, regardless of 'logic'

anyway, as far as the OP topic goes... whatever... Brown has a right to say whatever wants... and any employer of his has the right to fire him for it... that's about the jest.
 
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