Re: Ron Brown -- Long Rant

Rhode Irish

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We just disagree then. I think you're flat out wrong. Hating someone for no reason (their skin color or their sexual orientation, for example) is not the same as hating someone for a good reason (like, because they hate people because of their skin color or their sexual orientation). If your argument is a semantic one, substitute another word for "hate." The same idea applies.

hate is hate... and this type of thinking is what is wrong with the PC crowd...

And all this time I thought what was wrong with liberal thinking was its tendency to incorporate "moral equivalency" and not distinguish right from wrong. Funny how this works; I feel like a dog chasing its tail trying to follow the lecturing coming from my right.

who decides when it is suddenly okay to discriminate on a certain person??

Me. I'm deciding that it is not OK to tell a black person or a gay person they can't eat in your establishment, but if you want to tell a racist or a homophobe to eat somewhere else, that is OK. That is called having values.

You can't say you hate someone for hating someone and not come off as a total, complete hypocrite, regardless of 'logic'

No, hypocrite would be to contradict your own logic. If there is a logical distinction between two positions it isn't hypocritical.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I have three disagreements with my church.

1. The stance they take on homosexuality.

2. They don't allow priests to marry.

3. __________________________. (I don't want to discuss #3 here)

Are you Roman Catholic?
 
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no.1IrishFan

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I would ask someone who believes sexual preference is a choice, when did they decide to be straight?
 

pkt77242

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Well here it goes....another one of those threads where I should keep my mouth shut but I can't.

I have three disagreements with my church.

1. The stance they take on homosexuality.

2. They don't allow priests to marry.

3. __________________________. (I don't want to discuss #3 here)

I believe #1 and 2 are kind of intertwined because if they did allow priest to marry, they'd be a little p!ssed at who many of them wanted to marry.


Hitting the post tab, then covering my head.

Only 3?

My list would look more like Martin Luther's 95 theses (well in length not content).

Though I definitely agree with you on 1+2 and probably would on number 3 if I knew what it was.
 

NankerPhelge

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I opened up an issue of "Today's Catholic" recently and turned to the editorial page. The first letter started with the line "I am a proud pro-choice Catholic." I was stunned by the absurdity of such a statement.

My point is that the Catholic Church is not, and has never been a "church with no rules" where each person is his own priest and highest authority in interpreting Scripture. That is why there are so many other Christian denominations. One is not required to be Catholic. But, I would respectfully submit that to be a Catholic requires a willingness to put aside the arrogance that what "I" think is right, no matter what the Church teaches--some humility and obedience. This is, I understand, contrary in so many ways to prevailing current philosophies. But, I just can never understand why anyone who has strong disagreements with the Catholic Church's teachings and feels that those personal beliefs trump those teachings even bothers to profess Catholicism? There are plenty of denominations where you can make up your own rules, and then if they don't coincide to that particular denomination, you can find one that will. And I seriously say that with the utmost respect and intend offense to nobody. But if truth is unchanging and an objective reality that can be discerned, subjective opinions of the truth really mean nothing, do they? Is truth subject to democracy? Or to our own, individual, subjective views? If so, not much of a truth worth believing in, is it? Again, no offense to anyone. I just never could understand people who say "well, I'm Catholic, but I disagree with the Church on x,y,z, or maybe the whole alphabet." At what point does it make no sense to profess the Catholic faith if the disagreements are so many and so strong?
 

pkt77242

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I opened up an issue of "Today's Catholic" recently and turned to the editorial page. The first letter started with the line "I am a proud pro-choice Catholic." I was stunned by the absurdity of such a statement.

My point is that the Catholic Church is not, and has never been a "church with no rules" where each person is his own priest and highest authority in interpreting Scripture. That is why there are so many other Christian denominations. One is not required to be Catholic. But, I would respectfully submit that to be a Catholic requires a willingness to put aside the arrogance that what "I" think is right, no matter what the Church teaches--some humility and obedience. This is, I understand, contrary in so many ways to prevailing current philosophies. But, I just can never understand why anyone who has strong disagreements with the Catholic Church's teachings and feels that those personal beliefs trump those teachings even bothers to profess Catholicism? There are plenty of denominations where you can make up your own rules, and then if they don't coincide to that particular denomination, you can find one that will. And I seriously say that with the utmost respect and intend offense to nobody. But if truth is unchanging and an objective reality that can be discerned, subjective opinions of the truth really mean nothing, do they? Is truth subject to democracy? Or to our own, individual, subjective views? If so, not much of a truth worth believing in, is it? Again, no offense to anyone. I just never could understand people who say "well, I'm Catholic, but I disagree with the Church on x,y,z, or maybe the whole alphabet." At what point does it make no sense to profess the Catholic faith if the disagreements are so many and so strong?


Well if you opinion held sway than 75% of Catholics would just disappear (and probably close to 90% in the US if you count people who think priests should marry, homosexuality is ok or use birth control). These are not truths they are man made rules that can be changed. Do you still believe that the Sun revolves around the Earth? because for the longest time the Church believe that as well and persecuted anyone who spoke out against them?

In full disclosure while I was born and raised Catholic (and I even have baptized my children) I am a Deist by belief).
 

phgreek

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We just disagree then. I think you're flat out wrong. Hating someone for no reason (their skin color or their sexual orientation, for example) is not the same as hating someone for a good reason (like, because they hate people because of their skin color or their sexual orientation). If your argument is a semantic one, substitute another word for "hate." The same idea applies..

...conflating race w/ a christian guy's view/opinion on homosexuality is complete and total BULL$hit. Nobody on here (that I've seen) supports or tolerates racism. I do see people struggling with doctrinal issues...issues of faith as relates to homosexuality. How can you simply throw people in the box with racists? Thats a convenient "sloganish" way to deal with an issue facing the largest part of the population of this nation.

...easy for you to call it moral equivalency because a lifetime of faith based teaching is time wasted to you. Point is, its not to MANY people. Throwing those people in a bucket with racists...and trying to bully and guilt them...well you effing tell me how that does anything but **** everyone off...its that kind of **** I'm tired of...

...just think your response(s) are emotional, and completely dismiss whats going on here...
 

Rhode Irish

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Nanker, first, I respect your views and beliefs. I mean that honestly, and it goes for everyone else here with a thoughtful perspective on these things. I do not assume to know all their is to know about existential matters. My views are my own, I did not come to them lightly, and I respect that not everyone shares them.

Whether intentional or not, you've just laid out many of the reasons why I, and so many of my generation, were Catholic. In many ways, I still identify with Catholics because of my upbringing and my time in the church, but as an adult I find much of the catholic teaching to be abhorrent to my personal views, and I find many of the catholic beliefs to be absurd to the point that they border on science fiction. I am not arrogant enough to expect the church to change to accommodate my way of thinking.

As anyone who has ever studied the cosmos with any degree of seriousness can surely understand, I find it difficult to formulate much in the way of concrete beliefs about who we are, where we came from and why we're here. I certainly believe it would be foolish to dismiss the possibility of a higher power or a creator based on the lack of hard evidence. On the other hand, I have seen nothing in the bible, or the Koran, or in any of the other books of the other world religions, that provide satisfactory answers to my questions.

It is quite clear to me that most of the bible is allegory (a fact that has unfortunately escaped a great many of the religious folks I know), which is not in itself a bad thing. Allegory is a useful teaching tool. Many of the lessons of the bible seem to me to come from the right place, and it shares that trait with the other world religions. For that reason, I do not begrudge anyone who finds their purpose or place in a particular religion or a particular church, or who finds the answers to their questions, or at the very least solace regarding the meaning of their existence.

But for me, I do not need a book written by mortal men centuries prior to the enlightenment to instruct me on matters I generally find intuitive: don't murder, rob, lie, cheat, steal. Do the right thing. Value your friends and family, as well as all your fellow man. I consider these universal ideals. On the other hand, I do find a lot of the values of the men who wrote the bible - particularly attitudes toward women, homosexuals, etc. - to more reflect the attitudes of their time than any timeless truism passed down from the heavens.

Anyway, I understand your defense of your church. I don't know what the answer is for the church as an institution. I understand and respect its unwillingness to change - the church doesn't exist for the sake of it, but to spread a specific message and idea. For that reason, fundamental change seems like a contradiction. A state can change its philosophies and policies with the times, but the church is its philosophies and policies, so if it changed them it would cease to exist. But as the church's grip on peoples' thoughts loosens over time, I question whether it will be able to stay relevant.

Things seem to be sort of regressing to the mean, so to speak - women and homosexuals are beginning to experience the kind of equal treatment they seem to naturally deserve, and I don't see that trend reversing. People's attitudes about sex and marriage are becoming more logical and less influenced by a church-based attitude that is seemingly devoid of reason or logic. Like so many things with the church, the reason has always been "because we said so" or "because God wants it that way," and those explanations just don't stand up once people begin to question them.

OK, I think I've wandered a bit off the path here. I thought your post was thoughtful and I wanted to respond. I suppose I've done that, in a way.
 

Anchorman

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...conflating race w/ a christian guy's view/opinion on homosexuality is complete and total BULL$hit. Nobody on here (that I've seen) supports or tolerates racism. I do see people struggling with doctrinal issues...issues of faith as relates to homosexuality. How can you simply throw people in the box with racists? Thats a convenient "sloganish" way to deal with an issue facing the largest part of the population of this nation.

...easy for you to call it moral equivalency because a lifetime of faith based teaching is time wasted to you. Point is, its not to MANY people. Throwing those people in a bucket with racists...and trying to bully and guilt them...well you effing tell me how that does anything but **** everyone off...its that kind of **** I'm tired of...

...just think your response(s) are emotional, and completely dismiss whats going on here...

Religion tolerated slavery and racism for a long time. It is no different, and down the road those that discriminated based on orientation will be viewed just as abhorrent as those who did so based on race. If my religion told me not to consume shellfish, I would say that was dumb. Wait... it does. And I do.
 

Rhode Irish

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...conflating race w/ a christian guy's view/opinion on homosexuality is complete and total BULL$hit.

I see no difference between hating someone for their race and hating them for their sexual orientation. It isn't bullshlt. It is discriminating against someone for who they are, and its wrong.

Don't give me this stuff about "struggling with doctrinal issues," either. As I explained in my long *** post above, my biggest problem with the church is their poisonous teachings and positions on health and gender issues. But even if you are a devout catholic and you believe that homosexuality is wrong, then just don't participate in it. Others doing something you consider to be immoral doesn't impact your relationship with God. Justifying hate on religious terms is offensive. Don't use your beliefs to justify your active intolerance of other people who may not share your beliefs.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I have three disagreements with my church.

1. The stance they take on homosexuality.

2. They don't allow priests to marry.

3. __________________________. (I don't want to discuss #3 here)

Here are brief explanations of the Church's position on homosexuality and priestly celibacy.

If, as a well-catechized Catholic, you have principled objections to those positions, I'd be interested in reading them.

I believe #1 and 2 are kind of intertwined because if they did allow priest to marry, they'd be a little p!ssed at who many of them wanted to marry.

You apparently believe that many priests are homosexuals. The evidence suggests otherwise.

I'd encourage you to study your faith further before publicly declaring your disagreement on certain subjects. You do the Church a disservice otherwise.
 

phgreek

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Religion tolerated slavery and racism for a long time. It is no different, and down the road those that discriminated based on orientation will be viewed just as abhorrent as those who did so based on race. If my religion told me not to consume shellfish, I would say that was dumb. Wait... it does. And I do.

..chapter, and verse please...guiding documents please...anything DOCTRINE supporting racism, and I get what you are saying. Generally speaking, slavery and racism happened BECAUSE people FAILED to follow teachings not the other way around...so I disagree.

Again...its an easy jump to lump all of this together...but its just not supported
 

no.1IrishFan

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As a Christian, there is a documentary that I STRONGLY encourage everyone to watch. It's called "Lord please save us from your followers". It's on Netflix.
 

Rhode Irish

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Here are brief explanations of the Church's position on homosexuality.

If God caused Sodom to be burned because of homosexuality, do you think San Francisco is still around just because God is not aware of it yet?

I say this only half jokingly. It is low hanging fruit, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts (or anyone's with a serious opinion).
 

pkt77242

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I love Lewis Black. Go to the 3 minute mark or so.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/o-id4GKsaQk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

Whiskeyjack

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If God caused Sodom to be burned because of homosexuality, do you think San Francisco is still around just because God is not aware of it yet?

That passage is cited as one of many scriptural supports for the sinfulness of homosexual activity. Do you believe that the Bible is divinely inspired? If not, our discussion on this subject is going to take a dramatically different direction.

This isn't an instance of an anachronistic ceremonial requirement from the OT which is no longer binding; it's a clear moral mandate which is reiterated in the NT as well. If you don't believe it, you have some serious issues with the Bible which need to be reconciled before you go on calling yourself a Christian.

And the argument from scripture is simply one of many. The Natural Law argument is even more compelling.

I get the impression you didn't really read that article, and simply cherry-picked the first thing you thought you could throw back in my face. Note this sentence at the bottom of the article:

[Homosexuals] must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.

The Church doesn't advocate hate or discrimination against homosexuals; quite the opposite in fact. But homosexual activity is immoral according both to Holy Scripture and Natural Law. If you'd care to argue otherwise based on something other than moral relativism or general libertarian instincts (which I share, btw), I'd love to discuss this further.
 

phgreek

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I see no difference between hating someone for their race and hating them for their sexual orientation. It isn't bullshlt. It is discriminating against someone for who they are, and its wrong.

Don't give me this stuff about "struggling with doctrinal issues," either. As I explained in my long *** post above, my biggest problem with the church is their poisonous teachings and positions on health and gender issues. But even if you are a devout catholic and you believe that homosexuality is wrong, then just don't participate in it. Others doing something you consider to be immoral doesn't impact your relationship with God. Justifying hate on religious terms is offensive. Don't use your beliefs to justify your active intolerance of other people who may not share your beliefs.

...again you insert hatred when there is none. THATS the entire damned point. I don't know this Brown guy from Adam....maybe he is using religion as a shield. But the general notion being spewed here is that hatred is what drives people to action when they disagree with homosexuality. I'm telling you the motivation, if these are true Christians, is quite the opposite. Do I try and save wayward souls, or do I let people do as they do...what is God's expectation of me, if I follow the doctrine? YOU do not get to define God's expectations for his followers (ie "Others doing something you consider to be immoral doesn't impact your relationship with God.") , even if it seems fair, logical, or convenient to you.

Look...my personal conduct is probably more in line with what you are saying...But I'm telling you what I see. I'm telling you race and homosexuality do not belong in the same sentence when you talk about Christian views and associated actions. Its simply a non-starter.
 

pkt77242

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Here are brief explanations of the Church's position on homosexuality and priestly celibacy.

If, as a well-catechized Catholic, you have principled objections to those positions, I'd be interested in reading them.



You apparently believe that many priests are homosexuals. The evidence suggests otherwise.
I'd encourage you to study your faith further before publicly declaring your disagreement on certain subjects. You do the Church a disservice otherwise.

I am confused by this part. it seems to talk about pedophilia which is completely different from Homosexuality. So you arguement holds no water there. I am not agreeing with Bob just disagreeing with your proof.
 

pkt77242

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Here are brief explanations of the Church's position on homosexuality and priestly celibacy.
If, as a well-catechized Catholic, you have principled objections to those positions, I'd be interested in reading them.



You apparently believe that many priests are homosexuals. The evidence suggests otherwise.

I'd encourage you to study your faith further before publicly declaring your disagreement on certain subjects. You do the Church a disservice otherwise.


Actually this cracks me up. If you are Catholic and want to become a priest you must be celibate and not marry but if you are a Lutheran preacher and want to become a Catholic priest you can keep your wife. Why not turn down the Lutheran preacher who who wants to become a priest just like a married practicing Catholic would be turned down. Again a rule that makes no sense.
 

BobD

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Here are brief explanations of the Church's position on homosexuality and priestly celibacy.

If, as a well-catechized Catholic, you have principled objections to those positions, I'd be interested in reading them.



You apparently believe that many priests are homosexuals. The evidence suggests otherwise.

I'd encourage you to study your faith further before publicly declaring your disagreement on certain subjects. You do the Church a disservice otherwise.

With hundreds of thousands of priests worldwide, odds are "many" is an accurate word to use, since just one gay priest would be way more than current rules allow.

Most days I read your posts and wish I was able to put my thoughts to writing as well as you, then some days you post things that make me hope I never come across that arrogant.

Still, I respect you and I'd bet money your a pretty cool dude.
 

no.1IrishFan

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To think what could be accomplished if we just loved one another as instructed. Crazy, I know.
 

irishpat183

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You cannot legislate tolerance, acceptance...etc. You just can't. All these laws do is create more of a divide.

Look at Affirmative Action...what a dumpster fire that is. All it's done is create more resentment.

Someone/some company doesn't want to hire a person because of their skin color??? Fine. Let them. They will ultimately suffer the consequences when they pass on a great employee.

But government has absolutely ZERO right to pass laws attempting to curb the way someone FEELS or their individual prejudices. Don't care how ridiculous the feelings are. It's not the governments job to get us all to like each other.

This "anti-bullying" crusade is a damn joke. You know how you deal with a bully? You punch him in the face. He's either gonna kick your ***, or you're gonna kick his. Either way, it's over after that.
 

Zwidmanio

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Lost in the debate over religion above, is that the beginning of this entire controversy stemmed from testimony in front of a city council. Catholics and other Christians may believe that homosexuality is wrong and immoral. That's fine. The government shouldn't, and really can't, do much of anything about it.

However, on the flip side, I don't think that laws, statutes, regulations, etc. should be influenced by purely religious belief. Just as the government shouldn't be free to impose secular standards of morality on religions, religions should not be permitted to impose their views of morality on the public as a whole.

Generally, those not bound by religious orthodoxy are pretty accepting of the fact that homosexuality is an inherent trait and not one that is chosen. For this reason, I believe discrimination against homosexuals is as wrong as discrimination against race, sex, gender, etc. and that religious thought should not be used to justify statutory intolerance.
 

Rhode Irish

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That passage is cited as one of many scriptural supports for the sinfulness of homosexual activity. Do you believe that the Bible is divinely inspired? If not, our discussion on this subject is going to take a dramatically different direction.

This isn't an instance of an anachronistic ceremonial requirement from the OT which is no longer binding; it's a clear moral mandate which is reiterated in the NT as well. If you don't believe it, you have some serious issues with the Bible which need to be reconciled before you go on calling yourself a Christian.

And the argument from scripture is simply one of many. The Natural Law argument is even more compelling.

I get the impression you didn't really read that article, and simply cherry-picked the first thing you thought you could throw back in my face. Note this sentence at the bottom of the article:



The Church doesn't advocate hate or discrimination against homosexuals; quite the opposite in fact. But homosexual activity is immoral according both to Holy Scripture and Natural Law. If you'd care to argue otherwise based on something other than moral relativism or general libertarian instincts (which I share, btw), I'd love to discuss this further.

Whiskey, it just so happens that today is one of the busiest days of the year for me, so I don't have a lot of time to construct the type of response that is warranted by your post. If you do want to have a discussion, I will gladly pick this up when I have a little more time to do the conversation justice.

For now, I just wanted to briefly reply to say that I wasn't trying to cherry-pick or throw anything in your face. My question represents one of the many questions I have about judeo-christian faith: where has God gone? It seems like he used to be pretty involved: setting towns on fire, flooding the earth, parting seas, demanding that guys kill their kids to show allegiance, etc. My take, as I explained in my long post at the bottom of the last page, is that all of that stuff is allegory and has been largely misconstrued, and frequently used by the church to justify policy that is actually just the prevailing sentiment at any given time.

I think a lot of what I would say to you in response was included in my post from last night that I mentioned above. That might be a good starting point for understanding where I'm coming from on this stuff. I'm certainly not a biblical scholar, so I probably won't be able to engage in a debate interpreting scripture. I can, however, offer a perspective that I feel is objective and not influenced by dogma.
 

woolybug25

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You cannot legislate tolerance, acceptance...etc. You just can't. All these laws do is create more of a divide.

Look at Affirmative Action...what a dumpster fire that is. All it's done is create more resentment.

Someone/some company doesn't want to hire a person because of their skin color??? Fine. Let them. They will ultimately suffer the consequences when they pass on a great employee.

But government has absolutely ZERO right to pass laws attempting to curb the way someone FEELS or their individual prejudices. Don't care how ridiculous the feelings are. It's not the governments job to get us all to like each other.

This "anti-bullying" crusade is a damn joke. You know how you deal with a bully? You punch him in the face. He's either gonna kick your ***, or you're gonna kick his. Either way, it's over after that.

I like you, but sometimes your thought process is astonishing. You really believe that businesses should be able to discriminate freely?

And you're right concerning it not being the government's job to make us "like eachother", but i'll be damned if its not their job to protect all American's right of the pursuit of happiness. Racism, institutional bigotry, etc all infringe on those individual's rights to have pursue the same level of rights as you or I.
 

irishpat183

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I like you, but sometimes your thought process is astonishing. You really believe that businesses should be able to discriminate freely?

And you're right concerning it not being the government's job to make us "like eachother", but i'll be damned if its not their job to protect all American's right of the pursuit of happiness. Racism, institutional bigotry, etc all infringe on those individual's rights to have pursue the same level of rights as you or I.

1. Well, yes. In the end...who suffers? Not the consumer, who can go elsewhere....but the business. They lose customers and potential employees. If some guy wants to be a racist a-hole, let him....again, HE WILL LOSE.

2. Problem is, they're overreaching with this type of legislation. Governments job is not to tell me that I need to hire this guy becuase I have too few of his kind in my office. I agree that we all win when we are able to accept each others differences....but we lose when we're forced to do so.

Remember: The same freedom that protects you to be you...also guarantees my freedom from you. That's why I'm always scratching my head when we pass laws that "protect" certain groups.
 

irishpat183

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Don't get me wrong....I"m not some segragationist. I'm just against government.


No one man, given all the bigoty/sexism/anti-gay, has done more damage than the government has when it comes to "social" legislation.
 
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