Racism

Wild Bill

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Hmmm... There isnt any discussion about why people checked the box. That bix wasnt checked at birth or conception. The culture/ family they grew up in would most certainly impact the box they check.

How would culture or family change my physical traits like skin color, hair or eyes?

Mixed races are certainly prone to that. Like what would Obama classiy himself as? White/black? What about tiger woods ? Other. We have white and black and Indian hispanics. There are multiple east asian races. What about the innumerable middle east races? But hey.... genetic diversity does have geograhical components but on a genetic level there is less than 1 percent different btw humans of all races. Take for example all the multiracial kids in America right now, there are mexian asians, white hispanics, black hispanics, asian indians..... wonder what they self identify as. I would be interested in say how ACamps family identifies their race.

I dont think this shows what you think it shows.

This study suggests that the race of a person can be identified, with almost 100% accuracy, with nothing more than their DNA. If race were a social construct there would be no genetic differences among races.

They did touch on mixed race children:

Neil Risch, PhD, a UC-San Francisco professor who led the study while he was professor of genetics at Stanford, said that the findings are particularly surprising given that people in both African-American and Hispanic ethnic groups often have a mixed background. "We might expect these individuals to cross several different genetic clusters," he noted. That's not what the study found. Instead, each self-identified racial/ethnic group clumped into the same genetic cluster.

I would be curious if there is a pattern on how mixed race children identify. It would make sense to me that they are just as likely to embrace both as they are to embrace one or the other but I am only guessing.
 
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Cackalacky

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How would culture or family change my physical traits like skin color, hair or eyes?



This study suggests that the race of a person can be identified, with almost 100% accuracy, with nothing more than their DNA. If race were a social construct there would be no genetic differences among races.

They did touch on mixed race children:



I would be curious if there is a pattern on how mixed race children identify. It would make sense to me that they are just as likely to embrace both as they are to embrace one or the other but I am only guessing.
Check out the article I posted earlier. Appostie text:
I am not being flip or coy. If you tell me that you plan to study "race and intelligence" then it is only fair that I ask you, "What do you mean by race?" It's true I don't always do math so well, but I understand the need to define the terms of your study. If you're a math guy, perhaps your instinct is to point out the problems in the interpretation of the data. My instinct is to point out that your entire experiment proceeds from a basic flaw -- no coherent, fixed definition of race actually exists.
......

Our notion of what constitutes "white" and what constitutes "black" is a product of social context. It is utterly impossible to look at the delineation of a "Southern race" and not see the Civil War, the creation of an "Irish race" and not think of Cromwell's ethnic cleansing, the creation of a "Jewish race" and not see anti-Semitism. There is no fixed sense of "whiteness" or "blackness," not even today. It is quite common for whites to point out that Barack Obama isn't really "black" but "half-white." One wonders if they would say this if Barack Obama were a notorious drug-lord.

When the liberal says "race is a social construct," he is not being a soft-headed dolt; he is speaking an historical truth. We do not go around testing the "Irish race" for intelligence or the "Southern race" for "hot-headedness." These reasons are social. It is no more legitimate to ask "Is the black race dumber than then white race?" than it is to ask "Is the Jewish race thriftier than the Arab race?"

The strongest argument for "race" is that people who trace their ancestry back to Europe, and people who trace most of their ancestry back to sub-Saharan Africa, and people who trace most of their ancestry back to Asia, and people who trace their ancestry back to the early Americas, lived isolated from each other for long periods and have evolved different physical traits (curly hair, lighter skin, etc.)

But this theoretical definition (already fuzzy) wilts under human agency, in a real world where Kevin Garnett, Harold Ford, and Halle Berry all check "black" on the census. (Same deal for "Hispanic.") The reasons for that take us right back to fact of race as a social construct. And an American-centered social construct. Are the Ainu of Japan a race? Should we delineate darker South Asians from lighter South Asians on the basis of race? Did the Japanese who invaded China consider the Chinese the same "race?"

Andrew writes that liberals should stop saying "truly stupid things like race has no biological element." I agree. Race clearly has a biological element -- because we have awarded it one. Race is no more dependent on skin color today than it was on "Frankishness" in Emerson's day. Over history of race has taken geography, language, and vague impressions as its basis.

"Race," writes the great historian Nell Irvin Painter, "is an idea, not a fact." Indeed. Race does not need biology. Race only requires some good guys with big guns looking for a reason.
What that study did was take groups of people back to the mother groups that have diverged phenotypically and that is how their outward appearance is. Race is really just boxes we have to check as part of our social identity like on census records etc.
 
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irishog77

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Check out the article I posted earlier. Appostie text:

What that study did was take groups of people back to the mother groups that have diverged phenotypically and that is how their outward appearance is. Race is really just boxes we have to check as part of our social identity like on census records etc.

Assuming all this is true, do things like affirmative action and racial quotas help perpetuate the belief that race is not a social construct, and in turn, perpetuate racism?
 
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Cackalacky

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Yea...when we define racism only in the realm of some superiority complex...something seems to be missing. I don't think we disagree...but maybe. So let me ask you... Is racism (as you define it) in the intent of the actor alone? Or in the action? Or in the perception of the receiver?

Assuming all this is true, do things like affirmative action and racial quotas help perpetuate the belief that race is not a social construct, and in turn, perpetuate racism?

To answer both simultaneously....the intent of racism is to demean and subjugate minorites. It serves no other purpose and is a relatively modern concept (see Whiskeyjack's very good response above). Therefore i believe that both majority groups and their institutions have the capacity to generate, enforce, promulgate, and imbue the culture they share with minorities with their racism. I think that minorities have seen so much of it for so long that it is multigenerational and with that comes along perception and expectations that majority groups and institutions are still promulgating racist policies and ideas. Much of minority responses are reactionary.

I dont know how I feel abou AA as it has benefits but also can cause problems that are well documented. All in all I think it was good intent and good execution and has benefitted many minorities.
 
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BobbyMac

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To answer both simultaneously....the intent of racism is to demean and subjugate minorites. It serves no other purpose and is a relatively modern concept (see Whiskeyjack's very good response above). Therefore i believe that both majority groups and their institutions have the capacity to generate, enforce, promulgate, and imbue the culture they share with minorities with their racism. I think that minorities have seen so much of it for so long that it is multigenerational and with that comes along perception and expectations that majority groups and institutions are still promulgating racist policies and ideas. Much of minority responses are reactionary.

I dont know how I feel abou AA as it has benefits but also can cause problems that are well documented. All in all I think it was good intent and good execution and has benefitted many minorities.

Racism isn't about minorities and majorities. It's about power, where one race furthers its agenda at the expense of others. See European Colonialism in Asia, Oceania, Africa and the Americas.
 
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Cackalacky

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Racism isn't about minorities and majorities. It's about power, where one race furthers its agenda at the expense of others. See European Colonialism in Asia, Oceania, Africa and the Americas.

Its all about minorities and majorities and inherent social inequalities. Certainly we can include dominant minorities in the discussion which is typical of colonialism. I had previously been centered around discussing dominant majorities oppressing minorities such as here and in Germany by the Nazis. But yes both dominant minorities and dominant majorities use their considersble political, military and economic power to subjugate. Racism is a very effective tool in both of their arsenals.

Thanks for bringing up the dominant minority aspect. I think it leads credibitility to the social construct point of view.
 

Bluto

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people can recognize race almost instantaneously when looking at one another.

This is 100% false based on my experience. When I walk around in LA people assume I am 100% Mexican. When I worked in Alaska people assumed I was Native American. When I went surfing in Hawaii people assumed I was Polynesian. When I was in Detroit people assumed I was Middle Eastern. If I stayed in the sun all summer and dressed in certain clothes and walked through Oakland some might assume I am African American. Nobody has ever once assumed I am part Irish. Based on my experience context is everything in terms of how people perceive what my ethic background is.
 
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Legacy

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Federal judge blocks further implementation of Texas' voter ID law (Dallas news)

A federal judge in Corpus Christi blocked further implementation of Texas' controversial voter identification law, after finding for a second time that it intentionally discriminates against minorities.

In a court order Wednesday, U.S. District Judge Nelva Gonzales Ramos blocked Texas from implementing portions of the 2011 voter ID law, which was considered to be one of the strictest in the country. And in a striking blow to the state, she blocked entirely a revamp to the law that the Texas Legislature passed earlier this year as Senate Bill 5. The legislation was an effort to appease Ramos and do away with the finding of discriminatory intent.

"Even if such a turning back of the clock were possible, the provisions of SB 5 fall short of mitigating the discriminatory provisions of SB 14," Ramos wrote. The original voter ID bill was passed as Senate Bill 14.

Ramos had previously ruled in 2014 that the law was purposefully discriminatory, but that ruling was appealed to the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. The appeals court ruled that the law had discriminatory effects, but asked Ramos to reconsider her ruling that it was drawn up with discriminatory intent.

In April, Ramos reaffirmed that ruling, saying the law violated Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act, which prohibits discrimination, as well as the 14th and 15th amendments.
In all, Texas' voter ID law has been ruled discriminatory five times -- four times by Ramos and once by the 5th Circuit.

The plaintiffs also had asked Ramos to consider placing Texas under federal supervision for further changes to its election laws. If that happens, Texas would be the first to be returned to supervision since a 2013 U.S. Supreme Court ruling allowed several southern states with histories of discrimination out of that supervision.

Ramos did not rule on that request Wednesday but ordered both sides to file briefs stating whether hearings were necessary on the issue.
 
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NorthDakota

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This is 100% false based on my experience. When I walk around in LA people assume I am 100% Mexican. When I worked in Alaska people assumed I was Native American. When I went surfing in Hawaii people assumed I was Polynesian. When I was in Detroit people assumed I was Middle Eastern. If I stayed in the sun all summer and dressed in certain clothes and walked through Oakland some might assume I am African American. Nobody has ever once assumed I am part Irish. Based on my experience context is everything in terms of how people perceive what my ethic background is.

I can pass for Hispanic or Native very easy. Mom's side are a bunch of German and Irish ghosts. Dad's side,
Everyone either looks Aryan AF or very tan. When my beard fills in more i could probably pass for middle eastern too.
 
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Irish#1

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CrownRoyal

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Thanks for posting. Longstreet was brilliant as a leader. Lee recognized his military mind and used him accordingly. One might ask if Lee had too much confidence in Longstreet when he ordered the charge upon Cemetery Hill? I wonder if there will be calls to remove his statue from Gettysburg, with many blindly not knowing he supported reconstruction and Grant?

This is so true.....the misconception of the Civil War and some of its Leaders is mind boggling.

Are we to remove the Democratic party for supporting segregation and the KKK at one time????
 

phgreek

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To answer both simultaneously....the intent of racism is to demean and subjugate minorites. It serves no other purpose and is a relatively modern concept (see Whiskeyjack's very good response above). Therefore i believe that both majority groups and their institutions have the capacity to generate, enforce, promulgate, and imbue the culture they share with minorities with their racism. I think that minorities have seen so much of it for so long that it is multigenerational and with that comes along perception and expectations that majority groups and institutions are still promulgating racist policies and ideas. Much of minority responses are reactionary.

I dont know how I feel abou AA as it has benefits but also can cause problems that are well documented. All in all I think it was good intent and good execution and has benefitted many minorities.

So in order for actions to be deemed racist...there must be intent...i think many use "racist" beyond the fenceline established here. I think actions are frequently deemed racist for their result...not their intent.
 

Bluto

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I've seen studies that suggest they indeed notice the difference and match according to characteristics like skin color. In this case I think skin color is a suitable surrogate for race. So...to the extent they can see it, they use it to make sense of things. To me that is the genetic part...the propensity to seek and match "like" things. No judgement or hatred...

It has been my experience that kids do indeed notice differences in skin color. However, I do not believe that is a good surrogate for "race". The reason I say this is that it seems to me that melonin is much less important than cultural and social context when it comes to the way we currently describe race. For example, how would one go about explaining the racial differences between an African with light brown skin, an African with very dark skin, an East Indian with very dark skin and Meso-Americans or why the Japanese considered themselves the "master race" to a young child based on how we currently perceive and use the term "race". Never mind the race of any of those described above who happen to be Albino. They would not be able to follow that at all.

As well, no one is walking out an a limb to say people generally have distrust and fear toward "different"...rather people, places or things. Some part of that is likely very old and hard-wired through natural selection. Not saying we don't push those impulses aside in a healthy environment...but that stuff is there

I do not believe that people are hardwired to fear and distrust "different". Again young kids based on my experience actively seek as many different experiences based around the five sense as they can. That is part of the developmental learning process. They eat dirt, touch and grab everything and anything, stick forks in outlets, pick up and play with cat poop thinking it's "Indian Clay", ect. Now, whether or not these experiences are positive or negative reinforcements is largely a result of their environment. Also, they are for the most part very social and actively seek out others to engage in play irregardless of skin tone.

The kind of hatred described in this thread is certainly not "genetic"...but there are biases we are born with...they may well be vestigial (for lack of a better term) in our current existence...but they are there. Given our propensity to either seek "same" or repel "different"...I think the point is pretty clear about having open discussions about race and diversity......

Again I believe that the entire idea of "same" and "different" as it relates to humans and the idea of "race" is a complete social and cultural construct. Or if one reads the Bible the result of what happened at Babble maybe?

You can disagree...you can approach racism/bias, and strategize how best to deal with it. I believe understanding genetic pieces generally referred to as human nature are pretty important to that endeavor... especially as relates to children. You can deny those exist I suppose...

Again, I have not read, seen or experienced a single thing in my life that would demonstrate to me that there is a genetic component in regards to racism.
 
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IrishSteelhead

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6884ebca3401cbf1c87252a605432c7e.png



LOL
 
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Cackalacky

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wiki - Race and Genetics
The relationship between race and genetics is relevant to the controversy concerning race classification. In everyday life, many societies classify populations into groups based on phenotypical traits and impressions of probable geographic ancestry and socio-economic status—these are the groups usually called "races" in countries like the United States, Brazil, and South Africa. Patterns of variation of human genetic traits are generally clinal, with more abrupt shifts at places where steady gene flow is interrupted. It is possible to statistically correlate genetic markers with individual geographic ancestry, and to use the genetic markers to hypothesize ancestral genetic clusters. The frequencies of alleles tend to form clusters where populations live closely together and interact over periods of time. This is due to endogamy within kin groups and lineages or national, cultural or linguistic boundaries. This causes genetic clusters to correlate statistically with population groups when a number of alleles are evaluated.

Genetic analysis enables scientists to estimate the geographic ancestry of a person by using ancestry-informative markers, and by inference the probable racial category into which they will be classified in a given society. In that way there is a distinct statistical correlation between gene frequencies and racial categories. However, because all populations are genetically diverse, and because there is a complex relation between ancestry, genetic makeup and phenotype, and because racial categories are based on subjective evaluations of the traits, it is not the case that there are any specific genes, that can be used to determine a person's race.

"Race" doesnt exist in biology. Once scientits began decoding human DNA they wanted to stop differentiating by "race" because they understood what the DNA was telling them. In medicine they will try to use race to determine a probability that you may be more susceptible to genetic related diseases based on your self identified race but the correlation isnt always positive.

Please stop claiming there is a genetic component to race. Race doesnt exist. The social stratification, class warfare, and other societal ills do exist because they have been implementedby groups in power and have affected specific in-groups.

Genes and more specifically accumlated haplogroups have spread all over the world with human evolution and then by colonization. The best one can claim is that there are defining/dominant haplogroups which elicit phenotypical appearances which lead to ingroup bonding. But there is not gene for race. There is no correlation to phenotype and intelligence or other societal constructs except when scoial constructs are erroneously applied to persons exhibiting phenotypical pre-conceptions.

World_Map_of_Y-DNA_Haplogroups.png
 
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Redbar

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drayer54

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What does that have to do with racism?

People are using the rallying cry of opposing racism (hate) and fascism to violently suppress their message.

The irony is that they are using fascist tactics to try and remove the first amendment rights of others. Another irony is that they wear hoods and masks and look just as stupid as the KKK.

The difference is that the press has virtually ignored them and deemed their cause ok, signaling that if enough people disagree with you, you should be beaten in the streets and the 1st amendment doesn't apply to them.

I found it interesting and soft on what should be considered a terrorist hate group.

Tons more footage of them in action today in Berkely on youtube.
 

Bluto

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People are using the rallying cry of opposing racism (hate) and fascism to violently suppress their message.

The irony is that they are using fascist tactics to try and remove the first amendment rights of others. Another irony is that they wear hoods and masks and look just as stupid as the KKK.

The difference is that the press has virtually ignored them and deemed their cause ok, signaling that if enough people disagree with you, you should be beaten in the streets and the 1st amendment doesn't apply to them.

I found it interesting and soft on what should be considered a terrorist hate group.

Tons more footage of them in action today in Berkely on youtube.

Yeah ok. I can 100% guarantee not much happened in Berkeley today. Some assholes talkin shit and looking for trouble in Berkeley of all places found what they were looking for and got their asses kicked. Whoop de do. I've seen West Virginia post game celebrations that were more out of control than that. Hit me back when ANTIFA blows up kids in a federal building or walk into a church and gun people down or draw down with high powered riffles on federal law enforcement officers.This is just more of the "yeah but" bullshit I've been hearing my whole life. Put and egg in your shoe and beat it with that horse shit.
 
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drayer54

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Yeah ok. I can 100% guarantee not much happened in Berkeley today. Some assholes talkin shit and looking for trouble in Berkeley of all places found what they were looking for and got their asses kicked. Whoop de do.

Some a-holes looking for trouble and talking shit in Charlottesville got hit by a car and everyone lost their minds.

I guess it is who gets hurt that impacts whether or not it's a whoop de do or an ehhrmagerd.
 

Bluto

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Some a-holes looking for trouble and talking shit in Charlottesville got hit by a car and everyone lost their minds.

I guess it is who gets hurt that impacts whether or not it's a whoop de do or an ehhrmagerd.

Nope. Some violent asshole ran down a peaceful protester in Charlottesville. In Berkeley some violent assholes from out of State found exactly what they were looking. Again, take that sorry ass shit somewhere else. Daily Stormer maybe? You'd fit right in.
 

drayer54

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Nope. Some violent asshole ran down a peaceful protester in Charlottesville. In Berkeley some violent assholes from out of State found exactly what they were looking. Again, take that sorry ass shit somewhere else. Daily Stormer maybe? You'd fit right in.

So the assumption is that people in Charlottesville who were protesting nazi's were peaceful?

People who aren't liberals protesting are aholes got what they deserved.

Thanks. Case in point.

For the record, I think they are both aholes.
 
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