Pope Benedict to Resign

Wolverine1997

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I'm glad I can come here and not see a bunch of open bagging on my religion. I'm a regular MGoBlog poster, and I was disgusted earlier with all the shots being taken. I had to hold myself back from firing back at people which would've most likely gotten me banned.

I guess that's the only thing I have in common with ND is. Religious beliefs. But I'm still a Wolverine!
 

palinurus

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Anointing of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Remember this? Jesus didn't hold that all money ever made should go to the poor. There are some things that can be done (ie anoint jesus with super expensive perfume, build a grand church) without making us bad people.


This is a good point. I wouldn't downplay the effect that a beautiful church (think the Basilica, as an ND example) has in inspiring the faithful, in fact, helping them to BE more faithful, more holy, and thus act with greater Christian virtue, including Christian charity, thus helping more people. The poor don't exist because the Church has some ornate churches, and cashing it all to feed the poor wouldn't help them for very long. Better to fuel the faith of those who can do the things that help the poor on an ongoing basis and make alleviateing suffering a life faith mission. I wouldn't underestimate the power of the Church's visual beauty to do this.
 

Spiewak

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The point is that the doctrine of Infallibility applies very infrequently. So infrequently, in fact, that you wouldn't be able to find an applicable situation in which the Church has contradicted itself or been proven wrong.

But to reiterate Emcee77's earlier point, the practical significance of this doctrine is commonly overstated. It flows from the Church's understanding of its own founding, its purpose, etc. that the Holy Spirit won't allow it to fall into heresy (which, again, can be difficult to define).

This is 300-level Catholic theology here, so there's little point in continuing to argue unless we're going to start linking to scholarly sources.

Jumping in late here, but yes, papal infallibility is widely understood.

Pope is only infallible when making "Ex cathedra" ("from the chair") statements on faith and morals.

Believe the only true, defined ex cathedra statement is regarding the Assumption of Mary.
 

aubeirish

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I think a Pope from the U.S. would be absolutely incredible for the Catholic Church, despite some initial backlash from the European public.

The strongest North American candidate is probably Cardinal Marc Ouellet. He was Archbishop of Canada and is the current prefect of the Congregation of Bishops in the Vatican. I had the chance to meet him, he is very very educated man and a good orator. I would say that he doesn't have the charisma of John Paul II though. That man could lift the masses even in death.
 

aubeirish

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I studied in Rome this summer and have been to the Vatican several times to hear Benedict speak and give blessings. The world really underestimates how brilliant and wise the man actually is. He's not the most popular, but IMO he's done wonders for the Church.

I have heard him speak a few times myself, and this is absolutely true. Unfortunately, we live in a world of perception. The content is often overlook.
 

tko

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PopeKelly_zpsb37860f4.jpg
[/IMG]

Waiting for the smoke.
 

ulukinatme

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We got a new pope in Benedict. You know what changed for me? I had to forget the entire mass I had memorized and learn a new way to say mass.

That's about the only change I can really think of.

Prayers for the Pope's health though.

These are my feelings. I switched to a 3rd shift schedule after I married my wife who does nursing 3rd shift too. Missed mass for the last two years until just recently...I would understand if changing the wording was important or drastically changed the meaning, but it's the exact same thing at it's core. All the responses are nearly identical to the previous responses, but it has a more old fashioned feel to it and a few words were switched to some synonyms. I'm harping a bit. I really don't see the point in the change, and while it's mildly annoying, I find it completely unnecessary.
 

Old Man Mike

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Hmmmmm..... extreme amount of oversimplified commentary here [about almost every point in discussion]. These sentences are rife with threat to create massive disagreements without ever really knowing what the other guy is talking about. I'll add a very few things, which I believe are sound:

1). The Doctrine of Church Infallibility is a real complexity and essentially a deduction arising from Jesus' comments to Peter about "binding and loosing". The Moral Theology discussion on what this actually applies to goes MANY different ways.

A great number of Church Scholars think that this was intended by Jesus to refer to the forgiveness of Sin and, thereby, the sacrament of confession and absolution. Others use this to imagine the Infallibility of "The Church" on all matters of Faith and Morals [note NOT science]. Here the problem is the definition of what this "Church" is that actually "pronounces" on such things? This is not a trivial matter. Nothing is more obvious than that powerful personages high in church positions have differed [even violently] about almost anything. This is why we have The Creed, and why it is so short.

Persons wanting to maintain some easy fiction [with intellectual honesty you have to call it that] that "The Church" pronounces on such matters, have invented the concept of The Magisterium. This speculative body is allegedly composed of The Pope, high Church "authorities" such as Cardinals and Bishops, and maybe some other theologians. But again, these persons almost never agree exactly, so who's "in" and who's "out" at any given decade, minute, century? The Magisterium upon examination dissolves into a "consensus-at-the-moment" among authority figures, but [except for the basics of The Creed] a consensus which could change anytime.

Catholics are composed, just like all humans, of sheep and goats. Sheep have fear, and want clear, simple directives as to the recipe for personal salvation. Goats don't have quite so much fear, and would rather like to know whether their next chosen actions really make sense, or are they just obeying orders. If "orders" are clearly Orders From God, then you forget your goat-like nature, and get in line. But if they're not so clear, then it has been argued that the higher moral road IS to actually question and think about what one should best do. One can see these characteristics often in Ten Commandment-type Catholics vs Gospel-of-Love-type Catholics. Each group tends to wonder how the other guys are in The Church.

2). Some persons thought to cut through the Magisterium mess by saying that it was only The Pope who had the Infallibility Right. Most scholars throughout Church history thought that this was a bad idea, but in the 19th century a Pope rammed through [yep, read the history on this, it's pretty embarrassing] the concept that popes were infallible.

This infallibility was to be only concerned with "matters of faith and morals" and was only to be considered valid if he engaged in a directed ceremony "ex cathedra" [from St.Peter's Chair] to so pronounce. Popes have done this EXACTLY TWICE. One was by that very Pope to pronounce on Mary's Immaculate Conception, and the other was by a 20th century Pope to pronounce upon Mary's Assumption into Heaven.

I don't want to be too controversial here, but there were and are many Catholic scholars who view the Doctrine as "illegal" and inappropriately voted upon. Plus there are a number of scholars who view both pronouncements as at least somewhat wrong-headed.

What is required in detail for anyone to believe to be a Catholic is, as you see, very complicated, and so much so that one should take each issue and make a depth study on it. There is no useful broadbrush here.
 
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BeauBenken

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I'm glad I can come here and not see a bunch of open bagging on my religion. I'm a regular MGoBlog poster, and I was disgusted earlier with all the shots being taken. I had to hold myself back from firing back at people which would've most likely gotten me banned.

I guess that's the only thing I have in common with ND is. Religious beliefs. But I'm still a Wolverine!

No you're not. You're slowly becoming one of us.

One of us. One of us. One of us...
 

phork

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I loved Jon Stewarts piece on the daily show.

The Pope apparently had a crisis of faith, considering he has an ongoing deep relationship with someone he has never met. Just like Te'o!
 

Black Irish

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I loved Jon Stewarts piece on the daily show.

The Pope apparently had a crisis of faith, considering he has an ongoing deep relationship with someone he has never met. Just like Te'o!

Jon Stewart ripping on the Pope and Te'o in one breath? He must be one of those godless USC fans.
 
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Hmmmmm..... extreme amount of oversimplified commentary here [about almost every point in discussion]. These sentences are rife with threat to create massive disagreements without ever really knowing what the other guy is talking about. I'll add a very few things, which I believe are sound:

1). The Doctrine of Church Infallibility is a real complexity and essentially a deduction arising from Jesus' comments to Peter about "binding and loosing". The Moral Theology discussion on what this actually applies to goes MANY different ways.

A great number of Church Scholars think that this was intended by Jesus to refer to the forgiveness of Sin and, thereby, the sacrament of confession and absolution. Others use this to imagine the Infallibility of "The Church" on all matters of Faith and Morals [note NOT science]. Here the problem is the definition of what this "Church" is that actually "pronounces" on such things? This is not a trivial matter. Nothing is more obvious than that powerful personages high in church positions have differed [even violently] about almost anything. This is why we have The Creed, and why it is so short.

Persons wanting to maintain some easy fiction [with intellectual honesty you have to call it that] that "The Church" pronounces on such matters, have invented the concept of The Magisterium. This speculative body is allegedly composed of The Pope, high Church "authorities" such as Cardinals and Bishops, and maybe some other theologians. But again, these persons almost never agree exactly, so who's "in" and who's "out" at any given decade, minute, century? The Magisterium upon examination dissolves into a "consensus-at-the-moment" among authority figures, but [except for the basics of The Creed] a consensus which could change anytime.

Catholics are composed, just like all humans, of sheep and goats. Sheep have fear, and want clear, simple directives as to the recipe for personal salvation. Goats don't have quite so much fear, and would rather like to know whether their next chosen actions really make sense, or are they just obeying orders. If "orders" are clearly Orders From God, then you forget your goat-like nature, and get in line. But if they're not so clear, then it has been argued that the higher moral road IS to actually question and think about what one should best do. One can see these characteristics often in Ten Commandment-type Catholics vs Gospel-of-Love-type Catholics. Each group tends to wonder how the other guys are in The Church.

2). Some persons thought to cut through the Magisterium mess by saying that it was only The Pope who had the Infallibility Right. Most scholars throughout Church history thought that this was a bad idea, but in the 19th century a Pope rammed through [yep, read the history on this, it's pretty embarrassing] the concept that popes were infallible.

This infallibility was to be only concerned with "matters of faith and morals" and was only to be considered valid if he engaged in a directed ceremony "ex cathedra" [from St.Peter's Chair] to so pronounce. Popes have done this EXACTLY TWICE. One was by that very Pope to pronounce on Mary's Immaculate Conception, and the other was by a 20th century Pope to pronounce upon Mary's Assumption into Heaven.

I don't want to be too controversial here, but there were and are many Catholic scholars who view the Doctrine as "illegal" and inappropriately voted upon. Plus there are a number of scholars who view both pronouncements as at least somewhat wrong-headed.

What is required in detail for anyone to believe to be a Catholic is, as you see, very complicated, and so much so that one should take each issue and make a depth study on it. There is no useful broadbrush here.
The infallibility of the Pope, because of its dogmatic nature and recent historical creation, is an easy argument to parody. Because of your cogent remarks on the matter, I have decided not to go there.
 

Old Man Mike

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Whiskey sort of asked me to comment more about these things. I'm not sure that I want to do that unless it would be about some very specific point. But i can say a little about the infallibility business.

1). prior to the meeting of cardinals wherein the infallibility of the pope was voted up, we of course had our traditional Catechism. looking fairly much like those that I grew up with 100+ years later. The USA had ours and other countries had theirs. As things were always controversial, differences would sneak in and the Office in the Vatican overseeing the correctness of the faith [the direct descendent of the Inquisition, now quite "understated" for public relations purposes] would vet these things, rewording stuff before giving an "Imprimateur" of approval. But notice, many different "bishops" could give their Imprimateur [i.e. it didn't always come from Rome] and sometimes these Imprimateurs were overthrown by "the next guy up". The point is that The Magisterium did not speak with one voice at any time in Church history --- maybe on a dogma here and there, but certainly not upon all the issues.

2). one early 1800s issue relates to the discussion in earlier thread posts. The equivalent of our USA "Baltimore Catechism" of the time [assuredly Imprimateured by a high authority] had a feature which was like "frequently asked questions". One of those questions was whether anyone spoke infallibly outside directly quoting the Bible, even the Pope? The Catechism answered authoritatively "Absolutely Not! Even the Pope is merely human and is subject to human error and does not speak infallibly". A VERY small number of years later, all those catechisms had to be rubbished.

3). almost no Catholic theologian has believed in the "literal interpretation" of the Bible. A moment's reflection on the phrase tells you why. The word "interpretation" forces the individual understanding into the very concept. As all individuals are human, we will interpret the literal words as we understand them and not necessarily as everyone will understand them. This is why there exist "commentaries" on the Scriptures and plenty different versions of commentary.

The "literal interpretation" business achieved howler status when some very dogmatic conservative Protestant sects were driven to declare that one MUST use for this purpose the King James version of the Bible, rather than the Catholic version. The howler aspect of this was that these "scholars" neglected to realize that the KJV was in English, and few ancient history researchers could find evidence that Jesus or Paul or Moses spoke English.

The serious point of that wisecracker remark by me is that biblical scholarship continuously has shown MANY areas wherein very bad translations have been made from even Greek to English, let alone Hebrew or Aramaic. "Literal Interpretation" would demand original writings and thorough comprehension of very old versions of Middle Eastern languages to have even a ghost of a chance of working. Many parables and other literary devices used in the Bible require understanding of customs and mores of the times to even get the point. It is almost like trying to translate poetry.

4). The bottomline of this is that no one is going to come to you with a simply worded "Manual for a Holy Life" which is 10-20 pages long and answer every question that arises in one's life. The Game of GOD's Universe is a Game of Faith, not Certainty, and it is a Game of Being Internally Honest with yourself before making significant choices. Therein lies the actual value of The Church. The Church is not meant to be a mind-and-soul basher, but a spiritual support system. It is supposed to be a consultant for the confused and the distressed, and a "prophet" to the society [the role of Prophet being not future predictor but "speaking Truth to Power" about the malfunctions of societal power.]

Naturally The Church Administration wants you to take it seriously and so they oversell their role. Some, who never got the New Testament, missed the message of Servant Leadership entirely, and put the organization before the people, even while not realizing they are doing so. The Game of One's Life is a Dance between the individual soul and GOD. It is not a Dance between the individual and the Church. The Church, properly functioning and well-used by the individual, is a GREAT help in achieving wisdom, guidance, moral support, et al. It is not absolutely necessary. If it were, all persons living before Christ's Salvatory Act would be doomed to Hell. Wiser Moral Theologians put such things in their writings. Sometimes The Vatican doesn't like it much.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Naturally The Church Administration wants you to take it seriously and so they oversell their role. Some, who never got the New Testament, missed the message of Servant Leadership entirely, and put the organization before the people, even while not realizing they are doing so. The Game of One's Life is a Dance between the individual soul and GOD. It is not a Dance between the individual and the Church. The Church, properly functioning and well-used by the individual, is a GREAT help in achieving wisdom, guidance, moral support, et al. It is not absolutely necessary. If it were, all persons living before Christ's Salvatory Act would be doomed to Hell. Wiser Moral Theologians put such things in their writings. Sometimes The Vatican doesn't like it much.

Bravo.

And again, more please. On any subject.
 

palinurus

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A couple of polite points.

Re the Protestants and the Bible, it's also interesting that they skewer Catholics as non Bible believers when most of the books in the Protestants' bible were chosen by the early church fathers (the Protestant bible dropped a couple of books). Sometimes it seems as though some of the more hard core think the Christian church of which they are a member just popped up in 1500 out of nowhere.

A couple of points of disagreement or clarification. I don't think people should read these posts and reach the conclusion that we are pretty much on our own to conclude what is and isn't Church teaching, and that nothing, really, is required of us as Catholics. The Cathecism, as it stands was written to provide us with that sort of information on Church teaching. And the Magisterium is not meaningless; it has force. It isn't just, "Well, take it into consideration, but you can reject it all and still be a good Catholic." That can't be true.

Second, I doubt he meant it like this, but Mike's characterization of sheep and goats is, I think, unhelpful in that it is imprecise and rather pejorative. Sheep might well be motivated by something besides or in addition to "fear," and goats might be as fearful as anyone regarding, eg, losing the esteem of the "intelligentsia" (should they believe or accept Church teaching) or being seen as "obedient." I agree that some people can be looking for specific rules as rules for their own sake (legalistically, ie) and that others, out of pride or arrogance, are looking for a fight at every turn. But I think more people see the reason behind Church teachings and believe that, if the Church has no firm teachings, there isn't much point to it. I mean we can't lose sight of the fact that there is normally theological and philosophical analyis behind these teachings. Anyway, I don't accept the rather simplistic characterization of that analysis, esp. in that it seems to favor the disputacious.

Also, I am skeptical of whether "scholars" opinions should carry much sway in what we believe or don't. A scholar's opinion may be worth considering, depending on the scholar, but I am not convinced that, as a group, they are any more morally adept at judging Church teaching than an old Guatemalan kneeling in front of a tabernacle saying her beads. I'd bet that some of the scholars Mike referenced are considered "questionable" (at least) by the Church, and that is worth considering, too, before we credit their opinions.

None of this is to take away from the complexity of these issues. I don't pretend to understand them very well, and certainly not perfectly. I just get a bit concerned when a discussion starts down the road to the proposition that Christ would found a Church and then leave it to the people to grope around guideless, leaderless, rudderless. That's why I read "the gates of hell will not prevail against it" as meaning something serious: among other things, that the Church means something, that it won't go away, and that the Holy Spirit won't let the Church fall into serious error about important things. These seem implicit in the idea of Christ founding a Church at all.
 

Whiskeyjack

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A couple of points of disagreement or clarification. I don't think people should read these posts and reach the conclusion that we are pretty much on our own to conclude what is and isn't Church teaching, and that nothing, really, is required of us as Catholics. The Cathecism, as it stands was written to provide us with that sort of information on Church teaching. And the Magisterium is not meaningless; it has force. It isn't just, "Well, take it into consideration, but you can reject it all and still be a good Catholic." That can't be true.

I won't speak for OMM, but I don't think that was his argument. He posted in response to the discussion on Infallibility, and I believe his point is that the doctrine (and other aspects of the Church hierarchy) merits some suspicion.

Regarding his reference to sheep and goats; many people lack the intellectual capacity and/or curiosity to independently research and reason their way toward God. For such people, the Church's presentation of doctrine as a comprehensive and unquestionable theology unanimously propounded by the Magisterium is comforting. There's no need to worry since the Church has given you the "right" answer to every question already.

But in reality, there are very few black and white answers when it comes to morality, and much of what devout Catholics take to be "settled" doctrine is anything but. For those whom God has gifted with a powerful and curious intellect, there's actually a moral imperative to question authority and independently verify what you have been taught.

Take the ongoing child rape scandal. A staggering number of bishops and cardinals covered it up for years to protect the institution at the expense of children. Is there any doubt whether Jesus stands with the victims or the Church hierarchy here?

Historically, the Church was at its worst when its political power was at its highest. It still wields a lot of political power, and such power tends to corrupt. Suspicion of the mortal men who run the Catholic church, and their self-interested claim to infallibility, does not make one a renegade Catholic.
 
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palinurus

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I won't speak for OMM, but I don't think that was his argument. He posted in response to the discussion on Infallibility, and I believe his point is that the doctrine (and other aspects of the Church hierarchy) merits some suspicion.

Regarding his reference to sheep and goats; many people lack the intellectual capacity and/or curiosity to independently research and reason their way toward God. For such people, the Church's presentation of doctrine as a comprehensive and unquestionable theology unanimously propounded by the Magisterium is comforting. There's no need to worry since the Church has given you the "right" answer to every question already.

But in reality, there are very few black and white answers when it comes to morality, and much of what devout Catholics take to be "settled" doctrine is anything but. For those whom God has gifted with a powerful and curious intellect, there's actually a moral imperative to question authority and independently verify what you have been taught.

Take the ongoing child rape scandal. A staggering number of bishops and cardinals covered it up for years to protect the institution at the expense of children. Is there any doubt whether Jesus stands with the victims or the Church hierarchy here?

Historically, the Church was at its worst when its political power was at its highest. It still wields a lot of political power, and such power tends to corrupt. Suspicion of the mortal men who run the Catholic church, and their self-interested claim to infallibility, does not make one a renegade Catholic.



Re the first bold, I don't think that was his direct point, either, and didn't mean to imply it, only that amidst all the discussion, I didn't want that to be a false takeaway.

Re the second bold, we may agree, I don't know, and this is a point I was raising. One can raise confusion about any teaching to the point that there would appear to be no "Church teachings" about morality and I do not think that is true. Without raising specific issues, it's hard to say whether we agree or not, but the Church has outlined some intrinsically immoral things and others it left for prudential consideration. There are reasons why the Church reaches such various positions on thiese things, often because to do otherwise would put it at odds with itself without a basis.

I don't know about the third bold. I am not sure that higher IQ people have a greater right to disagree with (or act at variance with) specific Church teaching than less intelligent people do (if the "smart" people's analysis leads them to that conclusion). These aren't all "the smartest guy knows the right answer" issues. Nor are they "the smart guys can reach variant acceptable decisions if they want" issues. That would seem to be true only of prudential issues.

As to the abuse scandal, I agree, of course, that the failure of leadership and cover ups were reprehensible. The bishops caused and/or enabled great evil to kids and did great harm to the authority of the Church; it's a grave fault that should continue to be addressed. But those actions weren't done as an exercise of the Church's teaching authority. To the extent they hid behind their authority, you are right and I agree. Re political power, I think it's a power that is pretty diminished these days, as seen in the US by the divergent views of self-identified Catholic polticians. Not sure that that is so good.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I stumbled upon the following AmCon article yesterday, which in turn led me to the full text of a letter between J.R.R. Tolkien and his son, Michael. Thought some of you might find it interesting, particularly as it related to scandal in the Church.

From a 1963 letter from J.R.R. Tolkien to his son Michael. Michael was out of sorts and doubting the institution of the university, and the institution of the Church. Tolkien responded that the unavoidable truth is that if we want to preserve the living tradition of learning, we need the institution of the university; and likewise with the tradition of Christianity. Our task, said Tolkien, is to love and support these institutions in spite of their many, many failings — failings which are our own, if we think about it.

Tolkien goes on about scandals within the Church, and how to resist them.

You speak of 'sagging faith', however. That is quite another matter: In the last resort faith is an act of will, inspired by love. Our love may be chilled and our will eroded by the spectacle of the shortcomings, folly, and even sins of the Church and its ministers, but I do not think that one who has once had faith goes back over the line for these reasons (least of all anyone with any historical knowledge.)

'Scandal' at most is an occasion of temptation – as indecency is to lust, which it does not make but arouses. It is convenient because it tends to turn our eyes away from ourselves and our own faults to find a scape-goat. But the act of will of faith is not a single moment of final decision; it is a permanent indefinitely repeated act -- a state which must go on – so we pray for 'final perseverance'. The temptation to 'unbelief (which really means rejection of Our Lord and His claims) is always there within us. Pan of us longs to find an excuse for it outside us. The stronger the inner temptation the more readily and severely shall we be 'scandalized' by others. I think I am as sensitive as you (or any other Christian) to the 'scandals', both of clergy and laity. I have suffered grievously in my life from stupid, tired, dimmed, and even bad priests; but I now know enough about myself to be aware that I should not leave the Church (which for me would mean leaving the allegiance of Our Lord) for any such reasons: I should leave because I did not believe, and should not believe any more, even if I had never met any one in orders who was not both wise and saintly. I should deny the Blessed Sacrament, that is: call Our Lord a fraud to His face. If He is a fraud and the Gospels fraudulent – that is : garbled accounts of a demented megalomaniac (which is the only alternative), then of course the spectacle exhibited by the Church (in the sense of clergy) in history and today is simply evidence of a gigantic fraud. If not, however, then this spectacle is alas! only what was to be expected: it began before the first Easter, and it does not affect faith at all – except that we may and should be deeply grieved. But we should grieve on our Lord's behalf and for Him, associating ourselves with the scandalizers not with the saints, not crying out that we cannot 'take' Judas Iscariot, or even the absurd & cowardly Simon Peter, or the
silly women like James' mother, trying to push her sons.

It takes a fantastic will to unbelief to suppose that Jesus never really 'happened', and more to suppose that he did not say the things recorded of him – so incapable of being 'invented' by anyone in the world at that time : such as 'before Abraham came to be lam' (John viii). 'He that hath seen me hath seen the Father' (John ix); or the promulgation of the Blessed Sacrament in John v: 'He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life'. We must therefore either believe in Him and in what he said and take the consequences; or reject him and take the consequences. I find it for myself difficult to believe that anyone who has ever been to Communion, even once, with at least right intention, can ever again reject Him without grave blame. (However, He alone knows each unique soul and its circumstances.)

The only cure for sagging of fainting faith is Communion. Though always Itself, perfect and complete and inviolate, the Blessed Sacrament does not operate completely and once for all in any of us. Like the act of Faith it must be continuous and grow by exercise. Frequency is of the highest effect. Seven times a week is more nourishing than seven times at intervals. Also I can recommend this as an exercise (alas! only too easy to find opportunity for): make your communion in circumstances that affront your taste. Choose a snuffling or gabbling priest or a proud and vulgar friar; and a church full of the usual bourgeois crowd, ill-behaved children – from those who yell to those products of Catholic schools who the moment the tabernacle is opened sit back and yawn – open necked and dirty youths, women in trousers and often with hair both unkempt and uncovered. Go to Communion with them (and pray for them). It will be just the same (or better than that) as a
mass said beautifully by a visibly holy man, and shared by a few devout and decorous people. (It could not be worse than the mess of the feeding of the Five Thousand – after which [Our] Lord propounded the feeding that was to come.) I myself am convinced by the Petrine claims, nor looking around the world does there seem much doubt which (if Christianity is true) is the True Church, the temple of the Spirit* dying but living, corrupt but holy, self-reforming and rearising. But for me that Church of which the Pope is the acknowledged head on earth has as chief claim that it is the one that has (and still does) ever defended the Blessed Sacrament, and given it most honour, and put it (as Christ plainly intended) in the prime place. 'Feed my sheep' was His last charge to St Peter; and since His words are always first to be understood literally, I suppose them to refer primarily to the Bread of Life. It was against this that the W. European revolt (or Reformation) was really launched – 'the blasphemous fable of the Mass' – and faith/works a mere red herring. I suppose the greatest reform of our time was that carried out by St Pius X:1 surpassing anything, however needed, that the Council2 will achieve. I wonder what state the Church would now be but for it. This is rather an alarming and rambling disquisition to write! It is not meant to be a sermon! I have no doubt that you know as much and more. I am an ignorant man, but also a lonely one. And I take the opportunity of a talk, which I am sure I should now never take by word of mouth. But, of course, I live in anxiety concerning my children: who in this harder crueller and more mocking world into which I have survived must suffer more assaults than I have. But I am one who came up out of Egypt, and pray God none of my seed shall return thither. I witnessed (half-comprehending) the heroic sufferings and early death in extreme poverty of my mother who brought me into the Church; and received the astonishing charity of Francis Morgan.3 But I fell in love with the Blessed Sacrament from the beginning – and by the mercy of God never have fallen out again: but alas! I indeed did not live up to it. I brought you all up ill and talked to you too little. Out of wickedness and sloth I almost ceased to practise my religion – especially at Leeds, and at 22 Northmoor Road.4 Not for me the Hound of Heaven, but the never-ceasing silent appeal of Tabernacle, and the sense of starving hunger. I regret those days bitterly (and suffer for them with such patience as I can be
given); most of all because I failed as a father. Now I pray for you all, unceasingly, that the Healer (the Hælend as the Saviour was usually called in Old English) shall heal my defects, and that none of you shall ever cease to cry Benedictus qui venit in nomme Domini.

*Not that one should forget the wise words of Charles Williams, that it is our duty to tend the accredited and established altar, though the Holy Spirit may send the fire down somewhere else. God cannot be limited (even by his own Foundations) – of which St Paul is the first & prime example – and may use any channel for His grace. Even to love Our Lord, and certainly to call him Lord, and God, is a grace, and may bring more grace. Nonetheless, speaking institutionally and not of individual souls the channel must eventually run back into the ordained course, or run into the sands and perish. Besides the Sun there may be moonlight (even bright enough to read by); but if the Sun were removed there would be no Moon to see. What would Christianity now be if the Roman Church has in fact been destroyed?

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palinurus

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I stumbled upon the following AmCon article yesterday, which in turn led me to the full text of a letter between J.R.R. Tolkien and his son, Michael. Thought some of you might find it interesting, particular as it related to scandal in the Church.


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This is very interesting; thanks.
 

chubler

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...I was taught that the Magisterium wasn't a group of people within the church with a specific set of powers, but rather the collective responsibility of the bishops (and therefore the cardinals and pope) as the leaders who make doctrinal decisions for the church to guide and instruct the faithful when they strayed; More of a duty or an obligation than an empowerment.
 

Old Man Mike

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That definition is as good as any. The problems with it are:

1). The Magisterium has changed its positions on things over time and so cannot be argued to clearly "get it right" for any given issue;

2). Some of the Magisterium differ with one another on the same issue at the same moment in time. This causes one to begin to imagine "good" members of the Magisterium vs "bad" ones. Or wisemen vs fools. Or whatever dichotomy this seems to be. But if so, who are the Wise and who the Fools? Or is none of this sensible, and The Magisterium rather some Metaconceptual Entity from which Truth somehow mysteriously distills? Even if that, how long does one wait to determine which of the "distillations" coming from this chaotic situation is Correct?

3). There have been many times in Church history where persons NOT of bishop rank seemed considered members of The Magisterium. [Take St. Thomas Aquinas]. [i.e. "Doctors" of The Church]. And in the earliest days there were few "bishops" at all. Did the Magisterium slowly "magically" form across time?

Studying Church history is an arduous and sometimes "threatening" task, and I do not recommend it to anyone of "soft" faith. It doesn't "dent" my own faith, because I concentrate on constant real-time fortification through Communion, and I view The Church as being more the grass-roots than the Administration. Church history will show the student of it that the development of fresh, valuable spiritual concepts [based on the unshakeable foundations of The Creed] have never arisen from The Magisterium [which operates like classical administrations to maintain status quo and "do no harm" to the institution], but from the grass-roots [priests and sisters and laymen] who create and give lives to the great charities and services which are The Church's real gifts to humanity.

As a last [probably unwise] comment upon Church Doctrines and sanctioned thought: St. Thomas Aquinas among many other praised deductions of moral theology, wrote that GOD did NOT instill the Soul at "conception", but waited until the embryo was much further along [he even had a sexist difference in there as to when foetal boys got souls vs foetal girls]. That idea was all to the good for a long while with The Magisterium. Much earlier in the Moral theology "game", super-Magisterial St. Augustine said that all the babies who ever were born but were not baptized were doomed to burn in He!l. That lasted for a shorter time as cooler heads ultimately prevailed to inform Augustine that this particular concept of his uber-severe mind was full of crap. Thankfully.

The whole point of all of this is: The Church is mainly its people and its message of Love and neighborliness. That never changes and is the reason to see the Church as Divinely founded and supported. When one studies the darker aspects of the history of some misguided flawed humans who had high positions in The Magisterium, I at least become MORE convinced that The Church is constantly supported by The Holy Spirit. How else have we continued to survive such people over the centuries?
 

chubler

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I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of your post and 99% of the letter.
However, I am personally willing to accept the church's claim of papal infallibility.

Not, of course, at face value. But it seems to me that your earlier analogy of a bishop's imprimatur being revoked by someone higher up the hierarchy of the magisterium could provides a way for the claim of papal infallibility to be less odious (although it requires a very specific interpretation). e.g.: the holy spirit guides the pope's hand so that the church as a whole does not fall into heresy, although individual units of the church might. In this view, the pope could himself be incorrect about certain issues (to throw an example out, one of JPII's or Benedict's papers on specific theological issues ) as long as the church as a whole didn't begin to follow a heretical path.

I of course reject the claim that any human can speak "infallibly" all the time across all moral and theological issues. My personal belief is that papal infallibility is restricted to the more theological side of things- Benedict was guided by the holy spirit in keeping the church from into theological heresy (eg. arianism, protestantism, confusion on the identity of god or the means of salvation) but not necessarily guided on the moral ramifications of that theology- His his positions on the use of condoms in HIV-ridden African nations might be an example.
 
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