Oversigning Recruits

[Bogtrotter07]

LAX buddy, you are okay. But you should let it go. They are just spewing forth mountains of shiit, hoping that their little intellectually dishonest turd sandwiches get lost it the totality of it all. I am out of here. My waders no longer guarantee me safety.

 

[Bishop2b5]

That's a ridiculous conspiracy theory. That also hinges on someone being so embittered and cash starved that they want to take the bribe.

Don't be so sure about that. It's ruthless in the SEC. As FinancePHD mentioned, Urban sent everything he had on us to Utah a few years ago before they played us and UF released a lot of negative stuff about Cam during his NCAA investigation. There's actually a group of Auburn boosters funneling money into a program to do anything they can to get Bama in trouble. One of them pretended to be a Bama fan, befriended Julio Jones and Mark Igram, took them on a fishing trip, then turned them into the NCAA for accepting illegal benefits. They even had something going a few years ago called Operation Red Dog where they posed as Bama boosters and offered free cars to our recruits and players with the intention of turning them in if they accepted.

Several years ago, one of their boosters gave $34,000 to a former Bama player who'd gotten involved with drugs and fallen on hard times to say he'd gotten all sorts of illegal benefits while at Bama. He later recanted, but the damage was done and we got put on probation. I don't know if did or didn't get anything illegal, but an Auburn booster paid him big bucks to say he did. There are similar stories involving other SEC schools and boosters shelling out big bucks to hire PI's, dig up dirt, or do anything to get a rival program in trouble. It's cutthroat and ruthless sometimes. The idea that another school's fans wouldn't go to any length or jump on an opportunity to smear a rival school with something like this is far from a conspiracy theory. It's commonplace.

 

[FinancePhD]

This is all very valid (minus your spelling of pejorative... I kid, I kid). But what I will say is that you've probably missed what I've said on medicals previously in the walls of text... but I've always supported the liberal use of medicals to keep a kid in school who you would otherwise force out through other means. Most schools would just trump up violation of team rules or strongly "encourage" them into a transfer or just cut them altogether for no reason at all. As an athlete with lots of athlete friends at lots of different colleges, I know that pushing players out happens in every sport at every school.

So I'm not biased against the practice... I just want you Alabama people to admit that your school is probably putting kids on medicals who are still physically able of PARTICIPATING in the sport even if they aren't going to be a big time contributor.



All good points, but I really doubt someone shell out tens of thousands of dollars for something that "might" hurt recruiting (let's be serious, it wouldn't). If it was something serious? I could see it. Definitely. But the two examples that you just gave all involve someone taking an hour out of their day to release some damning info... that's far less of a barrier than going out of your way to attempt to buy testimony on a topic that would have minimal impact at best to Alabama. No one thinks kids are really going to give a crap about something as little as this when Alabama is destroying every CFB team in the country

The WSJ article is an example of the far extents people are willing to go to "prove" this against 'Bama and disparage them... there is no way someone is paying $10k+ to someone to go on record with allegations of something that isn't a violation in any way shape or form.



Fine. Nothing more to be said here.

(BTW, I have a day off today... if you couldn't tell... so keep it coming haha)

Sadly I do not have your time. Spring break is in a little over a week so I am trying to get exams ready and somehow write a paper to keep my advisor happy.

I know you do not know me personally so you are skeptical of my motives. I fully understand that since I have been on this site for a day and a half or so and this is the only topic on which I have commented (and one of only 5 or 6 that I have read). I see a team that had 4 medicals in a year for three years and I simply do not know if that is high. You said you looked around a bit and found a few that had 2 and in your search that was the high limit. My particular research is in catastrophic risk (the fat tails like hurricanes, tornadoes, mispelling the word pejorative , and stuff like that). That is why I am really picky about people using normal distributions and why a couple of years where it seems high does not make me jump to the conclusion that it is high.

I don't know if it is high. I would love for it to be examined. I think personally that the number of medical redshirts is high. Perhaps that is inline with other schools. If medical exemptions are higher than other schools though, it would still remain to be seen if it is due to fraud. Does Alabama give medical that it should not, does Alabama simply beat the hell out of their players, or is Alabama giving the right number of exemptions and other teams are too low? I really do not know but there seems to be a lot of steps left to go before jumping to Alabama has exemptions therefore it is roster management due to oversigning. That is my personal view on medical exemptions.

I am sorry that I may have projected thoughts of other posters onto you. There are no doubt many different views from people that are against oversigning as there are many different views from people that are for oversigning.

I honestly only come here because someone posted a link to this thread (I think it may have been on mgo?) and I just joined to thank Bishop for trying to represent the other side. As you can tell I am much better as a lurker than as a poster.

 

[BeauBenken]

For real. I don't even want to bother reading any of this.

TL;DR

 

[BGIF]

ResLife posted this SBNation article written by an Alabama fan which was originally posted on IE in the Improper Benefits thread. It's about oversigning plain and simple so I reposted the article to go along with the previous discussion here.

2014 Roster Lookahead: The Number Crunch - Roll 'Bama Roll

Bama has 12 players that have used up their eligiblity (I didn't see in the article that they graduated), 5 that left for the NFL draft and 2 that have transferred. That's 19 vacancies when they have 24 verbals and expect 3 more.

Now we are repeatedly told that the SEC doesn't oversign. "It's a myth!" But the Tide fan author clearly notes he used to take issue with the Oversigning.com crowd but since as many as 9 undergraduates without degrees may lose their slots and he's having a change of heart albeit a mealymouthed one:

... to be honest, when the numbers start to get this loose, our position starts to creep towards being untenable.

Starts to creep?

Look for a timely outbreak of career ending flu to hit the Tuscaloosa campus.

 

[ResLife Hero]

ResLife posted this SBNation article written by an Alabama fan which was originally posted on IE in the Improper Benefits thread. It's about oversigning plain and simple so I reposted the article to go along with the previous discussion here.

2014 Roster Lookahead: The Number Crunch - Roll 'Bama Roll

Bama has 12 players that have used up their eligiblity (I didn't see in the article that they graduated), 5 that left for the NFL draft and 2 that have transferred. That's 19 vacancies when they have 24 verbals and expect 3 more.

Now we are repeatedly told that the SEC doesn't oversign. "It's a myth!" But the Tide fan author clearly notes he used to take issue with the Oversigning.com crowd but since as many as 9 undergraduates without degrees may lose their slots and he's having a change of heart albeit a mealymouthed one:




Starts to creep?

Look for a timely outbreak of career ending flu to hit the Tuscaloosa campus.

Thanks for moving this, I'd forgotten this thread was out there.

Imagine being a backup and having to worry every year that a freshman might not only take your spot on the depth chart, but he might also take your scholarship and education away.

 

[ACamp1900]

Saint Saban.

 

[T Town Tommy]

I would love for the NCAA to make athletic scholarships four years mandatory. I would also love for them to make athletes stay all four years. I would also love for them to make a coach stay through their current contract.

But it ain't happening. If Notre Dame wants to offer four year scholarships for athletes, then great. If Notre Dame wants to appeal to the NCAA to make it a mandatory requirement then pick up the phone and call M. Emmert. Otherwise, it's like beating a dead horse. A really dead horse.

 

[IrishLion]

"Violation of Team Rules" incoming shortly

 

[NDWorld247]

I would love for the NCAA to make athletic scholarships four years mandatory. I would also love for them to make athletes stay all four years. I would also love for them to make a coach stay through their current contract.

But it ain't happening. If Notre Dame wants to offer four year scholarships for athletes, then great. If Notre Dame wants to appeal to the NCAA to make it a mandatory requirement then pick up the phone and call M. Emmert. Otherwise, it's like beating a dead horse. A really dead horse.

Yes, but it's a horse ND fans love to beat! And, I'm not interested in getting in a big debate about this, but I'm curious if you'd still bleed Crimson if your son was one of the nine players that's going to get "cut" before August?

 

[T Town Tommy]

Yes, but it's a horse ND fans love to beat! And, I'm not interested in getting in a big debate about this, but I'm curious if you'd still bleed Crimson if your son was one of the nine players that's going to get "cut" before August?

It would be tough but if you know the rules going in, then you have to accept what happens.

 

[NDWorld247]

It would be tough but if you know the rules going in, then you have to accept what happens.

Interesting, and thanks for your response. So, now I'm curious, what "rules" were you told during the recruiting process? How did Saban and co. address the idea that at anytime your son's scholarship could be pulled if they found someone better?

 

[T Town Tommy]

Interesting, and thanks for your response. So, now I'm curious, what "rules" were you told during the recruiting process? How did Saban and co. address the idea that at anytime your son's scholarship could be pulled if they found someone better?

Saban shoots pretty straight. He doesn't promise playing time nor the fact that a scholarship is four years. It's a decision a recruit has to make based on that. Now, if he did promise four years and pulled it, then that's different. And wrong.

 

[ACamp1900]

Saban shoots pretty straight.

 

[phork]

I would love for the NCAA to make athletic scholarships four years mandatory. I would also love for them to make athletes stay all four years. I would also love for them to make a coach stay through their current contract.

But it ain't happening. If Notre Dame wants to offer four year scholarships for athletes, then great. If Notre Dame wants to appeal to the NCAA to make it a mandatory requirement then pick up the phone and call M. Emmert. Otherwise, it's like beating a dead horse. A really dead horse.

And I would love for teams not to try and skirt the rules because its not technically "illegal", its borderline criminal.

I coach tyke football (7,8 & 9) in my city. We had a rule that stated for protection of the center we can't use someone lined up directly on the center. They have to be 3 yards in front of the center. A Coach this year, call him Nick, decided to run the "Fake snap to the QB and run the center up the middle". Obviously abusing the rule that was in place to protect the center. So technically not in the rule book, but there it is.

 

[T Town Tommy]

And I would love for teams not to try and skirt the rules because its not technically "illegal", its borderline criminal.

I coach tyke football (7,8 & 9) in my city. We had a rule that stated for protection of the center we can't use someone lined up directly on the center. They have to be 3 yards in front of the center. A Coach this year, call him Nick, decided to run the "Fake snap to the QB and run the center up the middle". Obviously abusing the rule that was in place to protect the center. So technically not in the rule book, but there it is.

And I don't like the dive or the fade route to the corner of the endzone. Maybe we should outlaw them too. The NCAA determines the rules. And I believe they should change it.
As far as your example... get with the league and have the rule changed. Same as I said about getting with the NCAA and mandating four year scholarships.

 

[irishog77]

Saban shoots pretty straight. He doesn't promise playing time nor the fact that a scholarship is four years. It's a decision a recruit has to make based on that. Now, if he did promise four years and pulled it, then that's different. And wrong.

If this is true, then why not just outright drop the players lagging behind on the depth chart? Why does the student need to go on medical or transfer?

 

[JTLA]

Table of Total Signees

Table of Total Signees

I prepared a table which details the total number of signees for the top 60 recruiting schools in the last 6 years as ranked by Rivals.

Whether you sort by the last 6, 5, or 4 years, the degree to which the SEC simply signs - and thus oversigns - more recruits than the other conferences is evident.

In the last 6 years, 8 of the top 13 are SEC
In the last 5 years, 8 of the top 11 are SEC
In the last 4 years, 10 of the 17 are SEC

Who currently has the most commits for 2014? Tennessee with 33.

The problem isn't going away and it isn't getting better.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuDZw4tTZbLXdDFOaDR0TTlzZlE0VElwakZVNVBlOFE&usp=sharing

 

[greyhammer90]

After reading this thread I vote Tommy's new avatar should be:

 

[T Town Tommy]

After reading this thread I vote Tommy's new avatar should be:

Done.

 

[BGIF]

I prepared a table which details the total number of signees for the top 60 recruiting schools in the last 6 years as ranked by Rivals.

Whether you sort by the last 6, 5, or 4 years, the degree to which the SEC simply signs - and thus oversigns - more recruits than the other conferences is evident.

In the last 6 years, 8 of the top 13 are SEC
In the last 5 years, 8 of the top 11 are SEC
In the last 4 years, 10 of the 17 are SEC

Who currently has the most commits for 2014? Tennessee with 33.

The problem isn't going away and it isn't getting better.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuDZw4tTZbLXdDFOaDR0TTlzZlE0VElwakZVNVBlOFE&usp=sharing

"Oh come on! Oversigning is a myth created by jealous fans who don't have as good as coaches as we do." SEC mantra


Surely, there is no correlation between the SEC's run in the BCS and their years dominating the Oversigning charts. has to be coincidence.

 

[greyhammer90]

Done.

Very nice sah.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Reading through this thread compelled me to hunt down NOLAIrish's* posts on Louisiana's TOPS program. I found them in this thread, which contains a lot of good insight into this topic.

In short, most southern states have a scholarship program similar to LA's TOPS, which offers a full ride to any student who meets very modest academic standards. This allows SEC schools to freely transfer under-performing football players from athletic to academic scholarships, effectively kicking them off the team without pulling their financial aid. This tactic isn't available to elite private institutions like ND, Standford, Vandy, etc. because the academic qualifications of the general student populace are so much higher than the football team; ND would have to abolish tuition/ put every student on academic scholarship for it to be an option.

Since most of the kids that get forced out keep their scholarships, the practice isn't as morally outrageous as it appears at first blush. The issue then becomes mostly about amending the NCAA bylaws to level the playing field instead of protecting recruits from dishonest coaches.

*NOLA is a boss. I was afraid he had stopped posting when I started the search, but to my pleasant surprise, he's just been contributing in odd threads that I haven't visited recently.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I may cause a few heads to explode and ruin some people's image of Bama and Saban with this, but...

Live at 9 with Kevin Scarbinsky: The best story of Alabama's big recruiting class | AL.com

 

[BGIF]

I may cause a few heads to explode and ruin some people's image of Bama and Saban with this, but...

Live at 9 with Kevin Scarbinsky: The best story of Alabama's big recruiting class | AL.com

Al Capone funded orphanages and soup kitchens.


ND gave a medical scholarship to a HS football commit who broke his neck diving into the shallow end of a friend's pool ... in 1994.

Congratulations on Alabama catching up with the last millenium.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I may cause a few heads to explode and ruin some people's image of Bama and Saban with this, but...

Live at 9 with Kevin Scarbinsky: The best story of Alabama's big recruiting class | AL.com

/r/cfb was circlejerking over aTm's decision to do something similar as well on NSD. In my humble opinion, the fact that this is even newsworthy in the SEC is damning in and of itself. There are lots of other programs that do this sort of thing regularly as a matter of course.

But we should give credit where its due. Good on Saban for this one.

 

[Me2SouthBend]

Al Capone funded orphanages and soup kitchens.


ND gave a medical scholarship to a HS football commit who broke his neck diving into the shallow end of a friend's pool ... in 1986.

Congratulations on Alabama catching up with the last millenium.

The reverse head explosion technique. Nice.

On a related note, Capone exploded heads w a bat.

 

[BGIF]

/r/cfb was circlejerking over aTm's decision to do something similar as well on NSD. In my humble opinion, the fact that this is even newsworthy in the SEC is damning in and of itself. There are lots of other programs that do this sort of thing regularly as a matter of course.

But we should give credit where its due. Good on Saban for this one.

Actually it should be good on the University. It comes out of their pocket and doesn't count against Saban's elastic number.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Actually it should be good on the University. It comes out of their pocket and doesn't count against Saban's elastic number.

But it does provide a nice marketing opportunity for ol' Nicky, right? Why else did Bishop feel compelled to share this with a rival fanbase?

 

[BGIF]

But it does provide a nice marketing opportunity for ol' Nicky, right? Why else did Bishop feel compelled to share with a rival fanbase?

It definitely gets Saban PR points for doing the right thing. Nick has even become a proponent of classwork and study since the GSR, FGR, and APR came into effect.

Scarbinsky was one of the local reporters that incurred Saban's ire in the past for daring to ask about oversigning at a presser.