Oversigning Recruits

[T Town Tommy]

It definitely gets Saban PR points for doing the right thing. Nick has even become a proponent of classwork and study since the GSR, FGR, and APR came into effect.

Scarbinsky was one of the local reporters that incurred Saban's ire in the past for daring to ask about oversigning at a presser.

Scarbinsky is a huge Auburn homer and any ire he receives from Saban is fine by me. Most of it is well deserved considering some of the comments Kevin throws out there.

As far as the scholarship Saban honored... simply PR for him. Much like it was for A&M a year or so ago and the many other schools that have done it in the past. In the end, the kid gets the chance at an education so kudos to him. Hope he takes advantage of it.

 

[Bishop2b5]

But it does provide a nice marketing opportunity for ol' Nicky, right? Why else did Bishop feel compelled to share this with a rival fanbase?

I shared it because several in here go out of their way at every opportunity to bash the school I attended and love. Negative stories are to be gleefully celebrated, and anything positive is to be dismissed, denigrated, spun or ignored... all done while patting yourself on the back about how noble, fair-minded, brilliant, and damned near perfect you are and how everyone else is scum that is beneath contempt. If you've made up your mind that nothing good could possibly happen at Bama, Saban's pure evil, we do nothing but mistreat and use players, injured players get cast aside, etc., etc., I see that any information to the contrary is not tolerated, as it doesn't fit with your already established opinion. I simply pointed out a nice story that showed Bama doing a good thing. Perhaps I should have known better.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I shared it because several in here go out of their way at every opportunity to bash the school I attended and love. Negative stories are to be gleefully celebrated, and anything positive is to be dismissed, denigrated, spun or ignored... all done while patting yourself on the back about how noble, fair-minded, brilliant, and damned near perfect you are and how everyone else is scum that is beneath contempt. If you've made up your mind that nothing good could possibly happen at Bama, Saban's pure evil, we do nothing but mistreat and use players, injured players get cast aside, etc., etc., I see that any information to the contrary is not tolerated, as it doesn't fit with your already established opinion. I simply pointed out a nice story that showed Bama doing a good thing. Perhaps I should have known better.

Forgive my cynicism. And I certainly don't subscribe to the view you've just described. See my first post on this page for a defense as to why 'Bama's oversigning isn't as morally outrageous as many here assume it is.

You're on a rival message board. Of course some ND fans are going to post very unflattering accusations about 'Bama here; and if those accusations also happen to cast our own program in a morally superior light, all the better! We find the same kind of fanatic (and irrational) denunciations of ND on Michigan and SC boards.

Gotta have a thick skin to post here as a rival fan. But I'd like to think we're more hospitable to rivals than most message boards.

 

[phork]

Great for the kid. So many kids get tossed to the curb. And I guess when you are signing 5 or 6 five star kids you can affored to oversign by 1 more. That won't count anyways.

 

[Rack Em]

I may cause a few heads to explode and ruin some people's image of Bama and Saban with this, but...

Live at 9 with Kevin Scarbinsky: The best story of Alabama's big recruiting class | AL.com

 

[ndfi78]

W.

T.

F.

 

[IrishLion]

It might be PR, and there might be plenty of things to argue against when it comes to Bama, but at the end of the day none of that matters when a story like this pops up (at least in my eyes).

One good deed is better than none.

 

[Irish#1]

I shared it because several in here go out of their way at every opportunity to bash the school I attended and love. Negative stories are to be gleefully celebrated, and anything positive is to be dismissed, denigrated, spun or ignored... all done while patting yourself on the back about how noble, fair-minded, brilliant, and damned near perfect you are and how everyone else is scum that is beneath contempt. If you've made up your mind that nothing good could possibly happen at Bama, Saban's pure evil, we do nothing but mistreat and use players, injured players get cast aside, etc., etc., I see that any information to the contrary is not tolerated, as it doesn't fit with your already established opinion. I simply pointed out a nice story that showed Bama doing a good thing. Perhaps I should have known better.

 

[ACamp1900]

I shared it because several in here go out of their way at every opportunity to bash the school I attended and love. Negative stories are to be gleefully celebrated, and anything positive is to be dismissed, denigrated, spun or ignored... all done while patting yourself on the back about how noble, fair-minded, brilliant, and damned near perfect you are and how everyone else is scum that is beneath contempt. If you've made up your mind that nothing good could possibly happen at Bama, Saban's pure evil, we do nothing but mistreat and use players, injured players get cast aside, etc., etc., I see that any information to the contrary is not tolerated, as it doesn't fit with your already established opinion. I simply pointed out a nice story that showed Bama doing a good thing. Perhaps I should have known better.

Good to know you finally understand...

 

[JTLA]

I've updated the Table of Total Signees to reflect current 2014 data.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuDZw4tTZbLXdDFOaDR0TTlzZlE0VElwakZVNVBlOFE&usp=sharing

A few notes, I've taken data from Rivals, as it's the easiest to cut and paste, but there are some discrepancies, for example Rivals has Tennessee with 31 for 2014, and 247 has them with 33.

The first sheet compiles the total numbers of signees for the past 7 years for the top 60 programs in terms of total recruiting points awarded by Rivals. I've created sortable columns for the last 7 years, most recent 5, most recent 4, etc...

I've put the SEC teams in RED, as you can see, no matter how you sort this data, a great number of teams from the SEC appear at the top of the list.

A couple of non-SEC teams are catching up and playing the game, Oklahoma State, Washington, Florida State, and Oklahoma are signing just as many in the last 5 years.

The simple mathematical fact is that the more guys who transfer, get cut, drop out, get injured, leave early for the NFL, etc... the more bodies you can take to fill those spots.

Lastly, with regards to Saint Saban, only Mississippi has signed more prospects in the last 7 years than Alabama.

 

[Me2SouthBend]

I've updated the Table of Total Signees to reflect current 2014 data.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuDZw4tTZbLXdDFOaDR0TTlzZlE0VElwakZVNVBlOFE&usp=sharing

A few notes, I've taken data from Rivals, as it's the easiest to cut and paste, but there are some discrepancies, for example Rivals has Tennessee with 31 for 2014, and 247 has them with 33.
The first sheet compiles the total numbers of signees for the past 7 years for the top 60 programs in terms of total recruiting points awarded by Rivals. I've created sortable columns for the last 7 years, most recent 5, most recent 4, etc...

I've put the SEC teams in RED, as you can see, no matter how you sort this data, a great number of teams from the SEC appear at the top of the list.

A couple of non-SEC teams are catching up and playing the game, Oklahoma State, Washington, Florida State, and Oklahoma are signing just as many in the last 5 years.

The simple mathematical fact is that the more guys who transfer, get cut, drop out, get injured, leave early for the NFL, etc... the more bodies you can take to fill those spots.

Lastly, with regards to Saint Saban, only Mississippi has signed more prospects in the last 7 years than Alabama.

Looks like Ole Miss has drawn a line in the sand. They've had enough, they won't take this crap any more, enough is enough!

Mississippi Rebels cut football recruit who also signed with Utah Utes - ESPN

Although, had he not signed w Utah as well, there was this gem...
Before Law's release, Freeze said Ole Miss had been willing to overlook "some academic challenges" the recruit likely would face stemming from issues he had early in high school.

Tennessee on the other hand... Even the recruiting boards can't keep up with their signing numbers.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

I shared it because several in here go out of their way at every opportunity to bash the school I attended and love. Negative stories are to be gleefully celebrated, and anything positive is to be dismissed, denigrated, spun or ignored... all done while patting yourself on the back about how noble, fair-minded, brilliant, and damned near perfect you are and how everyone else is scum that is beneath contempt. If you've made up your mind that nothing good could possibly happen at Bama, Saban's pure evil, we do nothing but mistreat and use players, injured players get cast aside, etc., etc., I see that any information to the contrary is not tolerated, as it doesn't fit with your already established opinion. I simply pointed out a nice story that showed Bama doing a good thing. Perhaps I should have known better.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Looks like Ole Miss has drawn a line in the sand. They've had enough, they won't take this crap any more, enough is enough!

Mississippi Rebels cut football recruit who also signed with Utah Utes - ESPN

Although, had he not signed w Utah as well, there was this gem...
Before Law's release, Freeze said Ole Miss had been willing to overlook "some academic challenges" the recruit likely would face stemming from issues he had early in high school.
Tennessee on the other hand... Even the recruiting boards can't keep up with their signing numbers.

Sounds a lot like what BK and crew was saying about McKenzie. And I will give credit where it is due on IE... had several posters out here that was not happy with the Irishs' recruitment of McKenzie due to his apparent grade issues. But for every one of them, there was another that was ready to get him on board as soon as possible.

 

[T Town Tommy]

I've updated the Table of Total Signees to reflect current 2014 data.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuDZw4tTZbLXdDFOaDR0TTlzZlE0VElwakZVNVBlOFE&usp=sharing

A few notes, I've taken data from Rivals, as it's the easiest to cut and paste, but there are some discrepancies, for example Rivals has Tennessee with 31 for 2014, and 247 has them with 33.

The first sheet compiles the total numbers of signees for the past 7 years for the top 60 programs in terms of total recruiting points awarded by Rivals. I've created sortable columns for the last 7 years, most recent 5, most recent 4, etc...

I've put the SEC teams in RED, as you can see, no matter how you sort this data, a great number of teams from the SEC appear at the top of the list.

A couple of non-SEC teams are catching up and playing the game, Oklahoma State, Washington, Florida State, and Oklahoma are signing just as many in the last 5 years.

The simple mathematical fact is that the more guys who transfer, get cut, drop out, get injured, leave early for the NFL, etc... the more bodies you can take to fill those spots.

Lastly, with regards to Saint Saban, only Mississippi has signed more prospects in the last 7 years than Alabama.

Name all the players at Bama who have left the program the last seven years under Saban that were cut due to "oversigning."

I'll hang up and wait.....

 

[NDinMich]

Name all the players at Bama who have left the program the last seven years under Saban that were cut due to "oversigning."

I'll hang up and wait.....

Here you go. This is just 2011 and 2010.


Alabama’s March to 85 Finished? « Oversigning.com

 

[T Town Tommy]

Here you go. This is just 2011 and 2010.


Alabama’s March to 85 Finished? « Oversigning.com

So out of that list there were three players mentioned that said their scholarship was not renewed. The others were grades, medicals, transfers, etc. Now, can anyone tell me why the three players mentioned did not have their scholarships renewed? Again... I'll hang up and wait.

 

[OrlaNDomer]

Do you really think that players at Bama lose scholarships because of grades? If they are contributors to the team no way that would happen.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Do you really think that players at Bama lose scholarships because of grades? If they are contributors to the team no way that would happen.

That didn't answer my question. You may think what you want but the list that was provided stated three players did not have their scholarships renewed. My question was pretty simple. Why were they not renewed?

 

[phork]

That didn't answer my question. You may think what you want but the list that was provided stated three players did not have their scholarships renewed. My question was pretty simple. Why were they not renewed?

The burden of proof is on you. ND signs the players it need to fill the 85 man without mysterious circumstances surrounding departures to get them back under the cap. Who/What/Why doesn't really doesn't matter because neither one of us is privy to the bullshit behind the Crimson Door.

 

[T Town Tommy]

The burden of proof is on you. ND signs the players it need to fill the 85 man with mysterious circumstances surrounding departures to get them back under the cap. Who/What/Why doesn't really doesn't matter because neither one of us is privy to the bullshit behind the Crimson Door.

The burden is on those on this board that claims Bama oversigns. If you post Bama oversigns, then surely you have all the proof you need. Again, why were the scholarships not renewed for the three players mentioned on the list?

 

[kmoose]

The burden is on those on this board that claims Bama oversigns. If you post Bama oversigns, then surely you have all the proof you need. Again, why were the scholarships not renewed for the three players mentioned on the list?

You're being WAY too sensitive about this. Alabama oversigns. That's not a debate.

 

[T Town Tommy]

You're being WAY too sensitive about this. Alabama oversigns. That's not a debate.

Simple question I asked. Therefore, the answer should be just as simple.

Would you be WAY too sensitive if I claimed Notre Dame's football players average ACT scores were not really any better than probably half the other colleges in D1 football? Do I have proof? No. Therefore, I don't post that as fact.

 

[kmoose]

Simple question I asked. Therefore, the answer should be just as simple.

Would you be WAY too sensitive if I claimed Notre Dame's football players average ACT scores were not really any better than probably half the other colleges in D1 football? Do I have proof? No. Therefore, I don't post that as fact.

You did not ask a simple question. You asked a question whose only true answer can come from someone with intimate knowledge of why each person left the program. I don't need to have intimate knowledge of the program to say that Alabama has 16 players in the NFL draft, this April. Yet they signed 26 recruits. They signed 26 guys to replace 16. That's oversigning. If you can point to another 10 guys that they already know are leaving the program before next season, then I have no problem saying that I might be wrong.

 

[Cackalacky]

In summary, we might not have Saban's scholarship numbers, but we feel pretty confident that we have his number down pat by now. This is the second year that we have been able to forecast the amount of attrition to take place after NSD almost to the exact number. Last year we nailed it on the number, this year we said 11 and there has been 12 thus far. Not too shabby considering we don't have his numbers

This is very telling for me. From the article. The power of prediction is very powerful.

 

[T Town Tommy]

You did not ask a simple question. You asked a question whose only true answer can come from someone with intimate knowledge of why each person left the program. I don't need to have intimate knowledge of the program to say that Alabama has 16 players in the NFL draft, this April. Yet they signed 26 recruits. They signed 26 guys to replace 16. That's oversigning. If you can point to another 10 guys that they already know are leaving the program before next season, then I have no problem saying that I might be wrong.

And your post makes the basis of my argument. IF one does not really know the program then one can not say for sure that they are oversigning.

But, to answer my original question - one chose not to come back his fifth year, one was dismissed for two DUIs (although it was reported he had grade issues), and one transferred because he was asked to change positions but did not want to. On the outside, what appears to be "making room" due to oversigning is something far different on the inside.

 

[kmoose]

And your post makes the basis of my argument. IF one does not really know the program then one can not say for sure that they are oversigning.

Oversigning is simply signing more recruits than you can legally give scholarships to. It sounds more to me like you are arguing that Alabama does not throw kids away, to make room for their oversigned players. That may, or may not, be true. For instance, this player that was asked to switch positions; you don't think it's possible that the coaching staff identified this kid as someone who wasn't ever going to really contribute, and would almost certainly request a transfer if they asked him to play another position? And that maybe that is why they asked him to switch positions? I'm not saying that's what happened, but it certainly isn't as far-fetched as mermaids, ancient aliens, or smart blondes.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Simple question I asked. Therefore, the answer should be just as simple.

Would you be WAY too sensitive if I claimed Notre Dame's football players average ACT scores were not really any better than probably half the other colleges in D1 football? Do I have proof? No. Therefore, I don't post that as fact.

The thing is, you're on a ND board, trying to defend the indefensible to a bunch of guys who won't believe the bullshit.

If you went on a Bama board and said that about the ACT scores, and I was a ND fan on YOUR board, I'd just laugh it off, because A) I'd never be able to convince a bunch of Bama fans otherwise, and B) even though that's actually pretty easy to disprove, it's YOUR board and I wouldn't even waste my time.

The statement you said about ACT scores can be looked up as many of those scores are posted somewhere online. But your question, as kmoose said, well, how can we possibly know? I'd like someone on Bama's side of things to explain the numbers honestly, in a real way, but they can't, so they don't.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Oversigning is simply signing more recruits than you can legally give scholarships to. It sounds more to me like you are arguing that Alabama does not throw kids away, to make room for their oversigned players. That may, or may not, be true. For instance, this player that was asked to switch positions; you don't think it's possible that the coaching staff identified this kid as someone who wasn't ever going to really contribute, and would almost certainly request a transfer if they asked him to play another position? And that maybe that is why they asked him to switch positions? I'm not saying that's what happened, but it certainly isn't as far-fetched as mermaids, ancient aliens, or smart blondes.

The player you mention saw significant time on special teams his first season. He was competing against Robert Lester for playing time and was not going to beat him out for the position. The staff asked him to move to another position, at which time he declined and then transferred.

 

[IrishLax]

That didn't answer my question. You may think what you want but the list that was provided stated three players did not have their scholarships renewed. My question was pretty simple. Why were they not renewed?

If you're suggesting that they weren't cut, then the burden of proof is on YOU to supply the reason why the scholarship was not renewed. This is common sense dude...

I honestly give zero craps about "oversigning"... in all other college sports, there is TONS of of scholarship/financial aid juggling and kids get cut routinely to open up a roster spot for getting hurt or under-performing or whatever.

I would really like for certain SEC schools just to be honest with everyone and say "Yup, obviously we oversign to account for attrition. We don't break any rules. Deal with it." What's insulting is to hear people act like projected returning players + signed LOIs = 85, when the eyeball test clearly shows that it is over that number.

FWIW, I've always though Nick Saban acknowledged that he oversigned. I've heard him say numerous times that he only promises kids scholarships for 1 year and nothing more and they have to work to keep it. I actually respected that he was up front... reading these posts where people try to act like Alabama's greater than average attrition, players being offered medicals who go on to play elsewhere, "scholarship not renewed", and just 2nd grade level addition don't clearly show that Alabama oversigns is... sad.

Yeah, I think sad is the best adjective. Be honest with yourselves.

 

[T Town Tommy]

The thing is, you're on a ND board, trying to defend the indefensible to a bunch of guys who won't believe the bullshit.

If you went on a Bama board and said that about the ACT scores, and I was a ND fan on YOUR board, I'd just laugh it off, because A) I'd never be able to convince a bunch of Bama fans otherwise, and B) even though that's actually pretty easy to disprove, it's YOUR board and I wouldn't even waste my time.

The statement you said about ACT scores can be looked up as many of those scores are posted somewhere online. But your question, as kmoose said, well, how can we possibly know? I'd like someone on Bama's side of things to explain the numbers, but they can't, so they don't.

I just explained in detail the first response from an Irish poster on this board to the question I posed about the three players. And to the ACT scores, I do know what some Irish players ACT scores were. And they are far from what most on this board would like to believe. But it is not relevent to the conversation at hand. I did not state ND football team's ACT scores were in the 50 percentile range. Nor did I state it as fact. The only reason it was used to show that one can say what they want - with no basis in fact - and put it out there as fact. All I asked was a simple question and the response I gave in my answer in regards to the three players has no merit on whether Bama oversigns and cuts players to make room.