Oversigning Recruits

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I, too, have become less concerned with the oversigning issue at least in Alabama's case - and the rest of the SEC (West) with their new regulations. While it used to be that a program signed them all and worked them out by fall, the new regulation that all who signed will be counted as scholarship players whether they enroll in the fall or not plus the limitation of fifty players over a rolling two year period is an improvement. It is also a regulation that the ACC and Big 12 do not have, although less strict than B1G regs.

We can count on Alabama to sign twenty-five recruits every year. Programs can become out of scholarship balance like Georgia, Arkansas, Ole Miss and A&M last year as well as Tennessee this year will have blooms of recruits in some years, but, for the most part, many of those programs have seen decreased numbers with new coaches coming on board. At Alabama Saban runs a tight ship with an overall significant decrease in embarrassing incidents to the program.

At ND we may have around the 23 number of recruits for the 2015 class, which would be the third year in a row. This may well be a stabilizing number to shoot for annually, since we had an attrition rate of fifteen players over the last four classes. So the difference between Alabama's yearly 25 and our 23 is palatable to me.

Alabama is now making sure players clear with academics, mostly before signing, and will take chances on only a few special cases. Alabama may also offer a couple of in-state recruits a year in their last five. Some have legacies with Alabama football and well as having Bama as a dream school.

Unless there is a significant problem or the player wants to transfer, Bama's scholarships are effectively good for the first two years. Those who cannot qualify go to prep school or JUCO nowadays. Their problem with their success is making room for them to enter a future class, though in a few cases they may wish they had not. Darius Paige is the lone medical scholarship (back) in the last four classes that I can recall. ND has had four (Roberson, Nichols, Spond, and Carrico). I can only recall one (Darius McKellar, class of 2009) who was offered a med scholarship and transferred and played football elsewhere.

But oversigning can be an issue elsewhere as well as in isolated cases and where it has no regulations or total disregard for a student athlete's academic future. The issue shouts for more uniform regulations among all conferences with University Presidents taking a firm stance with active oversight. If any one issue needs correcting, it would be how much is sacrificed by a university for success on the football field over everything else.
 

IrishLax

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And all things they KNEW would happen prior to signing their class. Otherwise Saban is just a really good guesser.

That's the thing, right? There is no possible way to know in advance about most attrition (guys like Kamara are an exception)... but things always tend to take care of themselves. For example, the possession arrest can now be used an excuse to kick a reserve RB off the team, but if they want/need to keep him then they don't have to kick him off. Being +8 gives them "flexibility".

You'd be hard pressed to find a team (Stanford?) that doesn't have any attrition year-to-year. Oversigning just makes sense if you can get away with it... to what degree is another debate.
 

T Town Tommy

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Kamara headed to JUCO and now this for Hart: Alabama running back Dee Hart arrested on multiple charges | TuscaloosaNews.com

Looks like 2 down, a couple to go. None of this is "fishy"... all natural attrition.

Kamara was in the doghouse on two seperate occasions with Saban during the season and it was well known that he would not be back with the team as early as November. You should do your research a little better Lax. And Hart. He was a vital part of the team last season and was one of the best players on special teams. Probably wasn't going to see too much as far as rb, but was expected to contribute in other ways. And Saban has been very heavy handed in dealing with players that mess up. Some would even argue he is much more heavy handed than your beloved Irish coach in that regard.
 

IrishLax

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Kamara was in the doghouse on two seperate occasions with Saban during the season and it was well known that he would not be back with the team as early as November. You should do your research a little better Lax. And Hart. He was a vital part of the team last season and was one of the best players on special teams. Probably wasn't going to see too much as far as rb, but was expected to contribute in other ways. And Saban has been very heavy handed in dealing with players that mess up. Some would even argue he is much more heavy handed than your beloved Irish coach in that regard.

Are you high? Or can you not read?

I said: nothing fishy... all natural attrition.
 

tussin

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I can read... and I can read what the intent of your post was too. Sell that BS to somebody else.

I think the intent was to show that oversigning has a way of working out naturally without fishiness.
 

IrishLion

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Damn, I thought TTown was in it for the long-haul.
 

tussin

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Kamara was in the doghouse on two seperate occasions with Saban during the season and it was well known that he would not be back with the team as early as November. You should do your research a little better Lax. And Hart. He was a vital part of the team last season and was one of the best players on special teams. Probably wasn't going to see too much as far as rb, but was expected to contribute in other ways. And Saban has been very heavy handed in dealing with players that mess up. Some would even argue he is much more heavy handed than your beloved Irish coach in that regard.

It's easy to be heavy handed when you have an extra cushion of 4-5 star players waiting to backfill any yearly attrition.
 

IrishLax

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I can read... and I can read what the intent of your post was too. Sell that BS to somebody else.

I think the intent was to show that oversigning has a way of working out naturally without fishiness.

That was exactly the point. Any effort at all towards honest reading comprehension would reveal that... as would reading subsequent posts between gk & I.

Gave Tommy a couple hours off to take the time to read better.
 

IrishLax

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Damn, I thought TTown was in it for the long-haul.

He is just gave him a couple hours off to stop typing and try reading. And to get his facts straight, as he didn't even know that Hart has been off the team since Sugar Bowl... yet WE'RE the uninformed ones.
 

IrishLion

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Speaking of oversigning, I saw that ND will be right at the 85-man limit if Riggs decides on South Bend.

Let's say for a minute that Tuitt, Niklas and GAIII all decide to stay in the South Bend for their senior seasons... that put's ND at 87/85 before Riggs is even under consideration.

What would have been done to get back down to limit?
 

IrishLax

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Speaking of oversigning, I saw that ND will be right at the 85-man limit if Riggs decides on South Bend.

Let's say for a minute that Tuitt, Niklas and GAIII all decide to stay in the South Bend for their senior seasons... that put's ND at 87/85 before Riggs is even under consideration.

What would have been done to get back down to limit?

You wouldn't have brought back Massa and Utupo as graduate students. After that, maybe you put Collinsworth in limbo.
 

IrishLion

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You wouldn't have brought back Massa and Utupo as graduate students. After that, maybe you put Collinsworth in limbo.

Well shoot, I didn't even think about the fifth year guys.
 

Bishop2b5

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It's easy to be heavy handed when you have an extra cushion of 4-5 star players waiting to backfill any yearly attrition.

That's true, but that's also one of the reasons you stock up on top recruits. Some will not pan out and some will screw up. You better have a backup plan and someone to fill their shoes.
 

JTLA

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Notre Dame has accepted 151 scholarships in the last 7 years.
Alabama has accepted 184. (The second most among major college programs.)

Two questions for Tommy.

1. Does unethical oversigning exist and who is guilty of it?

2. Why does Alabama need to sign an average of almost 5 more players per year than Notre Dame?
 

Bishop2b5

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Notre Dame has accepted 151 scholarships in the last 7 years.
Alabama has accepted 184. (The second most among major college programs.)

Two questions for Tommy.

1. Does unethical oversigning exist and who is guilty of it?

2. Why does Alabama need to sign an average of almost 5 more players per year than Notre Dame?

I'm not Tommy, but as a Bama fan I'll be glad to take a shot at answering you.

1. You'll have to define what you consider unethical oversigning. From what I read here in this forum, most define oversigning as signing more players on NSD than you currently have spots for on your 85 man roster. In of itself, I don't see anything unethical about that. It isn't against NCAA rules and is SOP at most schools. Between NSD and the start of fall practice, almost every program will lose a few players to academics, behavior issues, or injuries. The more talented programs will likely lose a few players who are buried on the depth chart and will transfer to a school where they have a better chance at playing time. This is all normal attrition that happens virtually every year at every school. If a coach doesn't allow for such attrition and oversign a bit to compensate for it, he'll end up without a full roster most years. Most of the time a coach already knows by NSD which of his players are planning to transfer and which 5th year seniors probably don't want to return or which won't be asked to return, so on paper he may, e.g., only have 17 roster spots open, but he knows that in reality he's going to have 21, and he anticipates that he'll probably have 3 or 4 more spots open up due to injury, grades, behavior, etc., since that's about the number he loses most years. I'm not sure I'd call anyone guilty of this, since it's perfectly within the rules, so there's not really anything to be guilty of.

2. First, your claim that Bama has signed 184 players in 7 years sounds a little high. It may be correct, but I'd like to see where you got that number from. I recently saw someone here claim 119 in four years, but wouldn't or couldn't produce a source. It turned out the actual number was 99, so I'm skeptical of the numbers quoted sometimes without seeing their source. Often I find that the person tossing around unrealistic numbers is counting the same player twice (and in one case, three times), or counting players who signed but never qualified (and thus never counted), or some other inaccuracy. Bama, just like all other D1 schools, can only give 25 scholarships per year (unless you have scholarships remaining from the previous year, in which case you still can only give 50 in any two year period), so I don't believe it's possible or us to have given out 184 in 7 years. The most we could have awarded would be 175 unless we had 7 extra ones left over from our 2007 class, which I'm almost positive wasn't the case. It's likely that the 184 number you quote includes a few players that are being counted twice or players who signed but for various reasons never enrolled, and thus don't count. If Notre Dame only signed 151 during the same period, it's because ND has chosen not to oversign at all, even in anticipation of normal attrition between NSD and the start of fall practice. I understand the reasons for that and it has some noble ideas behind it, but it often leaves your team shorthanded and below the 85 man limit. Does Saban push the limits and engage in some roster management? Probably so, but to a much lesser degree than most on here seem to believe. Both the Bama approach and the ND approach have their pluses and minuses, but both are well within the NCAA's rules, so I don't see a problem with either.
 

phillyirish

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I'm not Tommy, but as a Bama fan I'll be glad to take a shot at answering you.

1. You'll have to define what you consider unethical oversigning. From what I read here in this forum, most define oversigning as signing more players on NSD than you currently have spots for on your 85 man roster. In of itself, I don't see anything unethical about that. It isn't against NCAA rules and is SOP at most schools. Between NSD and the start of fall practice, almost every program will lose a few players to academics, behavior issues, or injuries. The more talented programs will likely lose a few players who are buried on the depth chart and will transfer to a school where they have a better chance at playing time. This is all normal attrition that happens virtually every year at every school. If a coach doesn't allow for such attrition and oversign a bit to compensate for it, he'll end up without a full roster most years. Most of the time a coach already knows by NSD which of his players are planning to transfer and which 5th year seniors probably don't want to return or which won't be asked to return, so on paper he may, e.g., only have 17 roster spots open, but he knows that in reality he's going to have 21, and he anticipates that he'll probably have 3 or 4 more spots open up due to injury, grades, behavior, etc., since that's about the number he loses most years. I'm not sure I'd call anyone guilty of this, since it's perfectly within the rules, so there's not really anything to be guilty of.

2. First, your claim that Bama has signed 184 players in 7 years sounds a little high. It may be correct, but I'd like to see where you got that number from. I recently saw someone here claim 119 in four years, but wouldn't or couldn't produce a source. It turned out the actual number was 99, so I'm skeptical of the numbers quoted sometimes without seeing their source. Often I find that the person tossing around unrealistic numbers is counting the same player twice (and in one case, three times), or counting players who signed but never qualified (and thus never counted), or some other inaccuracy. Bama, just like all other D1 schools, can only give 25 scholarships per year (unless you have scholarships remaining from the previous year, in which case you still can only give 50 in any two year period), so I don't believe it's possible or us to have given out 184 in 7 years. The most we could have awarded would be 175 unless we had 7 extra ones left over from our 2007 class, which I'm almost positive wasn't the case. It's likely that the 184 number you quote includes a few players that are being counted twice or players who signed but for various reasons never enrolled, and thus don't count. If Notre Dame only signed 151 during the same period, it's because ND has chosen not to oversign at all, even in anticipation of normal attrition between NSD and the start of fall practice. I understand the reasons for that and it has some noble ideas behind it, but it often leaves your team shorthanded and below the 85 man limit. Does Saban push the limits and engage in some roster management? Probably so, but to a much lesser degree than most on here seem to believe. Both the Bama approach and the ND approach have their pluses and minuses, but both are well within the NCAA's rules, so I don't see a problem with either.

I'm guessing the definition of "normal attrition" differs greatly at Notre Dame and Alabama. At Notre Dame, normal attrition is usually one guy a year who can't cut it academically. At Bama normal attrition is signing 372 recruits in one class when you only have 6 scholarships available so you kick out all the underperforming players for not going to class even though the terms of Alabama standards and old nicks personal promises stated that you never had to go to class in the first place.
 

Bishop2b5

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I'm guessing the definition of "normal attrition" differs greatly at Notre Dame and Alabama. At Notre Dame, normal attrition is usually one guy a year who can't cut it academically. At Bama normal attrition is signing 372 recruits in one class when you only have 6 scholarships available so you kick out all the underperforming players for not going to class even though the terms of Alabama standards and old nicks personal promises stated that you never had to go to class in the first place.

Exaggerate and just plain make facts up to fit your views much? First, Bama has never signed 372 recruits in one class. Despite all the made up numbers you and others throw around, we've never signed a single player over what the NCAA allows. Second, ND's normal attrition is higher than 1 per year. Third, I'm sure it makes you feel better to claim that all ND's players are academic giants, your program would never lower their admission standards just because a kid could play ball (ignoring your recent star's ACT score of only 17), and no other school makes their players go to class or take academics seriously. Do you realize that since Saban took over, Bama leads the nation in producing academic All-Americans and had a Campbell Trophy winner. Our players go to class and take school seriously. You should be proud of ND's academics without feeling the need to make up completely false stuff to put others down. Fourth, if you don't like the fact that ND is at a disadvantage for not oversigning like other schools, petition the NCAA to change the rules. Most of the member schools of the NCAA don't see it your way. That's why they haven't implemented rules to stop it. ND refusing to oversign but then complaining others have an unfair advantage is like a guy saying he won't drink, won't go to clubs, won't date girls who aren't virgins, won't kiss a girl until the 3rd date, and won't stay out past 11 pm, but then complains that he can't get a date and it's not fair that the other guys get all the girls. Noble morals, but you chose them. Live with the results and stop whining that everyone else has a huge advantage because they won't voluntarily hamstring themselves too.
 

phillyirish

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Exaggerate and just plain make facts up to fit your views much? First, Bama has never signed 372 recruits in one class. Despite all the made up numbers you and others throw around, we've never signed a single player over what the NCAA allows. Second, ND's normal attrition is higher than 1 per year. Third, I'm sure it makes you feel better to claim that all ND's players are academic giants, your program would never lower their admission standards just because a kid could play ball (ignoring your recent star's ACT score of only 17), and no other school makes their players go to class or take academics seriously. Do you realize that since Saban took over, Bama leads the nation in producing academic All-Americans and had a Campbell Trophy winner. Our players go to class and take school seriously. You should be proud of ND's academics without feeling the need to make up completely false stuff to put others down. Fourth, if you don't like the fact that ND is at a disadvantage for not oversigning like other schools, petition the NCAA to change the rules. Most of the member schools of the NCAA don't see it your way. That's why they haven't implemented rules to stop it. ND refusing to oversign but then complaining others have an unfair advantage is like a guy saying he won't drink, won't go to clubs, won't date girls who aren't virgins, won't kiss a girl until the 3rd date, and won't stay out past 11 pm, but then complains that he can't get a date and it's not fair that the other guys get all the girls. Noble morals, but you chose them. Live with the results and stop whining that everyone else has a huge advantage because they won't voluntarily hamstring themselves too.

That's a bold claim, do you have any facts to support that?

Also I like you, so here is a link to help you out:
Paragraph Structure - Academic Writing

That's a cite that specializes in proper paragraph structure. Has a bunch of helpful tips such as letting you know that when you start a new view or argument your supposed to start a new paragraph. You know, so you don't type a 6000 word essay all in just one paragraph, kind of like how you've been doing.
 

IrishLax

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Let's chill with the pettiness. Bishop gave a lengthy, well-conceived post in #577 to attempt to answer two legitimate hypothetical questions. You responded with with hyperbole and an attack, which is basically the same shit I just got on TTown about. That's how discussion ends up going nowhere.
 

phork

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Well at least they are graduating 75% of their players.
 

JTLA

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I'm not Tommy, but as a Bama fan I'll be glad to take a shot at answering you.

1. You'll have to define what you consider unethical oversigning. From what I read here in this forum, most define oversigning as signing more players on NSD than you currently have spots for on your 85 man roster. In of itself, I don't see anything unethical about that. It isn't against NCAA rules and is SOP at most schools. Between NSD and the start of fall practice, almost every program will lose a few players to academics, behavior issues, or injuries. The more talented programs will likely lose a few players who are buried on the depth chart and will transfer to a school where they have a better chance at playing time. This is all normal attrition that happens virtually every year at every school. If a coach doesn't allow for such attrition and oversign a bit to compensate for it, he'll end up without a full roster most years. Most of the time a coach already knows by NSD which of his players are planning to transfer and which 5th year seniors probably don't want to return or which won't be asked to return, so on paper he may, e.g., only have 17 roster spots open, but he knows that in reality he's going to have 21, and he anticipates that he'll probably have 3 or 4 more spots open up due to injury, grades, behavior, etc., since that's about the number he loses most years. I'm not sure I'd call anyone guilty of this, since it's perfectly within the rules, so there's not really anything to be guilty of.

2. First, your claim that Bama has signed 184 players in 7 years sounds a little high. It may be correct, but I'd like to see where you got that number from. I recently saw someone here claim 119 in four years, but wouldn't or couldn't produce a source. It turned out the actual number was 99, so I'm skeptical of the numbers quoted sometimes without seeing their source. Often I find that the person tossing around unrealistic numbers is counting the same player twice (and in one case, three times), or counting players who signed but never qualified (and thus never counted), or some other inaccuracy. Bama, just like all other D1 schools, can only give 25 scholarships per year (unless you have scholarships remaining from the previous year, in which case you still can only give 50 in any two year period), so I don't believe it's possible or us to have given out 184 in 7 years. The most we could have awarded would be 175 unless we had 7 extra ones left over from our 2007 class, which I'm almost positive wasn't the case. It's likely that the 184 number you quote includes a few players that are being counted twice or players who signed but for various reasons never enrolled, and thus don't count. If Notre Dame only signed 151 during the same period, it's because ND has chosen not to oversign at all, even in anticipation of normal attrition between NSD and the start of fall practice. I understand the reasons for that and it has some noble ideas behind it, but it often leaves your team shorthanded and below the 85 man limit. Does Saban push the limits and engage in some roster management? Probably so, but to a much lesser degree than most on here seem to believe. Both the Bama approach and the ND approach have their pluses and minuses, but both are well within the NCAA's rules, so I don't see a problem with either.

So your answers are there is no such thing as unethical oversigning and you doubt my math without checking it.

No one can know whether a player transferred on his own accord or was forced out unless he publicly commented. All of the hand wringing and anecdotal evidence people cite is really not essential to the argument. Saying that 'maybe Saban pushes the limit'... blah blah blah is exactly the kind of b.s. I'm trying to avoid. To me unethical oversigning is pushing a kid out of your program who has done what you have asked him to do on the field and off, simply because a shiny new penny is available. So who does this? I don't know, but I'm guessing the schools that have the most commitments and worst grad rates do.

As for the data, I used Rivals.com's list of committed recruits and tabulated each year for the last 7 years. I have prepared a sortable table which you can twist any which way you want and find that the mighty SEC and Alabama are amongst the teams leading the NCAA in scholarships issued. They also typically lead the way with terrible GSR (73% for Alabama) and minority grad rates (56% for Alabama) but I digress.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuDZw4tTZbLXdDFOaDR0TTlzZlE0VElwakZVNVBlOFE&usp=sharing

Here is the source material... add them up.
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2014 Alabama Commitments
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2013 Alabama Commitments
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2012 Alabama Commitments
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2011 Alabama Commitments
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2010 Alabama Commitments
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2009 Alabama Commitments
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2008 Alabama Commitments
 

Bishop2b5

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So your answers are there is no such thing as unethical oversigning and you doubt my math without checking it.

No one can know whether a player transferred on his own accord or was forced out unless he publicly commented. All of the hand wringing and anecdotal evidence people cite is really not essential to the argument. Saying that 'maybe Saban pushes the limit'... blah blah blah is exactly the kind of b.s. I'm trying to avoid. To me unethical oversigning is pushing a kid out of your program who has done what you have asked him to do on the field and off, simply because a shiny new penny is available. So who does this? I don't know, but I'm guessing the schools that have the most commitments and worst grad rates do.

As for the data, I used Rivals.com's list of committed recruits and tabulated each year for the last 7 years. I have prepared a sortable table which you can twist any which way you want and find that the mighty SEC and Alabama are amongst the teams leading the NCAA in scholarships issued. They also typically lead the way with terrible GSR (73% for Alabama) and minority grad rates (56% for Alabama) but I digress.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuDZw4tTZbLXdDFOaDR0TTlzZlE0VElwakZVNVBlOFE&usp=sharing

Here is the source material... add them up.
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2014 Alabama Commitments
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2013 Alabama Commitments
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2012 Alabama Commitments
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2011 Alabama Commitments
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2010 Alabama Commitments
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2009 Alabama Commitments
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2008 Alabama Commitments

I didn't say there was no such thing as unethical oversigning. I simply asked you what your definition of that was, so that I didn't make an assumption about what you meant. As for tallying up Bama's signees over a 7 year period and coming up with 184, you did exactly what I pointed out above. You're counting players that signed but never qualified because of academics or health, and some others you're counting twice (JUCO players, grayshirts, etc.). No matter how much you want it to be so, Bama hasn't awarded scholarships to more players than the rules allow.

You don't like oversigning and believe it's unethical. You clearly dislike how some coaches manage their roster to stay within the 85 scholarship limit. That's fine, but that's YOUR opinion - one not shared by the NCAA and most of its member institutions. You just don't like the fact that ND puts itself at a self-imposed disadvantage by not oversigning and the other schools won't voluntarily do the same. It's not against NCAA rules and as long as a program is playing within the rules, that's all that matters.
 

Legacy

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If Alabama had been a Big 10 school

If Alabama had been a Big 10 school

limited by their regulations to show how they would justify scholarship offers that increased their potential current scholarship players to 88, you could review their classes and come up with 7 potential non-offers in each class (8 in the 2010 class. Those class numbers include recruits who signed but did not qualify.

Alabama as a Big 10 school - potential non-offers

I have readjusted with those offers with scholarships to the special teamers and to those in positions of need (only player offered at that position, for instance) - 8 players. Twenty-one of those signing, including players who did not qualify academically or walked on, would not have been on scholarship.

That leaves ninety-two scholarship players over four years, reduced from one hundred and three. Over the same four year time period, ND enrolled eighty-seven scholarship players.

ND's and Alabama's attrition rate was about the same (bottom) over that time period.

Oversigning as a Competitive Advantage - Of all eight with final inclusion (or of the twenty-nine possible non-exclusion) that I considered, only two - DeQuan Menzie ('13) and Vinnie Sunseri (this year) - would be drafted by the NFL. Only two others - Brandon Ivory, DT, and Brandon Hill, OT - are on the two deep in 2013. Arguably, that is not much of a competitive edge, especially if you were to include all twenty-nine recruits signed.

As a state school, among those three stars that may not have gotten scholarships were two per class from Alabama, who generally played on the scout team for a couple of years, and then may have either transitioned to a non-sports scholarships, played without one on the team or concentrated on their academics.

I see Alabama taking a few more chances on players than Notre Dame, but I see Saban mostly holding a firm line. We'll see how Flourney-Smith and Pettway pan out from this class. He may well have thought Kamara was a chance, which is why they signed/enrolled four RBs in '13.
 
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