NCAA Ruling on the ND Academic Scandal

tussin

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The issue isn't what ND did or didn't do. The issue is player eligibility.

My understanding is that player ineligibility would not result in NCAA sanctions (including vacated wins) if there was no evidence of institutional knowledge and/or malpractice at the time.

Is this incorrect?
 
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koonja

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Yeah, I haven't actually had a chance to read the NCAA's statement or ND's response because I'm in the field today but here are my truncated thoughts:

1. Blame the NCAA all you want, this is ND's fault. The NCAA has shown time and time again they let the worst offenders off the hook (besides USC lol) who actually commit violations for a competitive advantage... but hammer anyone who tries to "do the right thing" being strict and self-reporting honestly. In this case, ND didn't just self-report they conducted a LUDICROUS investigation and review of electronic documents the kind of which has NEVER been done in the history of collegiate academics. This probe was not only unnecessary, it was illogical.

Scenario 1: Notre Dame discovers plagiarism by some students, gives them zeros on the assignments, moves on.

Scenario 2: Notre Dame discovers plagiarism by some students, launches a massive multi-layer investigation of any and all of their correspondence and assignments including digital forensics, also reviews documents handled by all associates, suspends all players with any transgressions uncovered, and reports a potential violation because one student also happened to have a part time job on the support staff.

Scenario 1 we never hear of any of this and life moves on. Scenario 2 we lose multiple starters for the 2014 season and vacate 21 wins. Bunch of idiots in charge.

2. The NCAA is a bunch of assholes. This is no different than Kim Dunbar where all it takes is one person that wants to "make an example" and this is what you get. If the girl is just another student there is no grounds for any sort of "violation"... but simply because of an extracurricular activity she chose to participate in, they can classify commonplace cheating as a "benefit."

3. This has been in the works for awhile. When the NCAA opens an investigation, they're like OSHA. They're going to find something. Oversight bodies want to smack you as hard as possible to feel good about themselves and justify their existence. For well over a year now (really since the beginning) I'd heard we were going to have to vacate these wins. I've posted as much here more than a few times. Notre Dame administrators were incredulous that they were getting hit with sanctions for "doing everything right"... shows how utterly stupid and incompetent they are. The very day after the Frozen Five thing first broke I wrote a post for a blog stating definitively how we were handling the situation as poorly as possible and everything I said (I think, haven't actually read the statements yet) has been proven 100% correct.

I will give you credit. I typically take your 'bad news potentially' with a grain of salt because you're pessimistic, but you did say we could vacate wins when I and others thought you were crazy.
 

wizards8507

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My understanding is that player ineligibility would not result in NCAA sanctions (including vacated wins) if there was no evidence of institutional knowledge and/or malpractice at the time.

Is this incorrect?
Maybe, I'm not an expert at all. My only point was to contrast this with the strictly "off the field" stuff. If you have hookers running around campus, that's obviously lack of institutional control but it has nothing to do with the game being played on the field. Players playing who should be ineligible directly impacts the outcome of games and is thus more relevant to the vacating of wins, IMO.
 

IrishSteelhead

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NCAA Ruling on the ND Academic Scandal

So Kelly is 27-48 at ND? UNACCEPTABLE!!!!!!!
 

Ndaccountant

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Maybe, I'm not an expert at all. My only point was to contrast this with the strictly "off the field" stuff. If you have hookers running around campus, that's obviously lack of institutional control but it has nothing to do with the game being played on the field. Players playing who should be ineligible directly impacts the outcome of games and is thus more relevant to the vacating of wins, IMO.

well, receiving impermissible benefits - off the field stuff - impacts eligibility too.
 

IrishSteelhead

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Not that I've ever seen. Pretty sure it's still a loss or win for the other school and nothing for the school vacating.



You are correct sir. Just consulted our friends out West that know all about this:

a10c7c419491dc9d87b7fb1f02d359cb.jpg
 

connor_in

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What I'm dealing with right now:

"I really feel for you Jake. It really hurts when the glowing reputation of a school that thinks so highly of themselves starts to realize they are no different than any other university, and should maybe join the Big 10 and get piss pounded by good teams every year instead of playing Boston College 4 times a year".

We R ND.

Do you work at State Farm and wear khakis? Asking for a friend.
 

Pops Freshenmeyer

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Here's part of Notre Dame president John Jenkins' rationale for appealing NCAA's order to vacate wins in academic fraud case: <a href="https://t.co/MoN5GGFYOl">pic.twitter.com/MoN5GGFYOl</a></p>— Brian Hamilton (@BrianHamiltonSI) <a href="https://twitter.com/BrianHamiltonSI/status/801118508893384704">November 22, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

This is absolutely on point. The NCAA is vacating those wins because ND went back in time and failed them in those classes making them retroactively academically ineligible. But since UNC, after what I'm sure was careful review, meditation and much soul searching decided "fuck you" the wins still count as the athletes were eligible under their system.
 

Ndaccountant

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What I'm dealing with right now:

"I really feel for you Jake. It really hurts when the glowing reputation of a school that thinks so highly of themselves starts to realize they are no different than any other university, and should maybe join the Big 10 and get piss pounded by good teams every year instead of playing Boston College 4 times a year".

We R ND.

We all know this sucks. But your posts over the last two months leaves reasonable people to question why you are fan of ND. Nobody has enjoyed this year but your posts read like a pouting 12 year old.
 

IrishBroker

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We all know this sucks. But your posts over the last two months leaves reasonable people to question why you are fan of ND. Nobody has enjoyed this year but your posts read like a pouting 12 year old.

There are different types of fans. Not everyone is a Kool-Aid drinker. Not everyone is satisfied with a 8-9 win season and a meaningless bowl win/loss
 

BeatSC

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he's on the Bengals practice squad, takes alot of selfies in pre game, that's about it

Yep, sounds like KVR. I guess he isn't conquering the world the way he thought he would.....should have come back for an extra year IMO.
 
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koonja

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We all know this sucks. But your posts over the last two months leaves reasonable people to question why you are fan of ND. Nobody has enjoyed this year but your posts read like a pouting 12 year old.

No. No one with a life would follow a team this closely if they weren't fans. The entire ND product has been embarrassing in 2016. My posts are a reflection of reality.

BVG was awful, BK has gotten really bad, Nic Wieshar isn't a receiving threat, everyone in their right minds believes Dexter Williams should get carries, Trumbetti shouldn't be in coverage (although this appears to be fixed), etc. -- everything I say has evidence to support it.

This isn't pouting, it's reality.
 
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Ndaccountant

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There are different types of fans. Not everyone is a Kool-Aid drinker. Not everyone is satisfied with a 8-9 win season and a meaningless bowl win/loss

Ha. You got me.

mikvggi.gif


Really though, it isn't about being satisfied or not and if you think that is what I am referring to, you are mistaken.
 

ND NYC

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this thread just went to even money for thread of the year.
(did the frozen five thread win in 2014?)

seriously though, what in the fuck is this!? cant quote put into words how pissed I am right now both with ND and the NCAA.

Lax, I remember, you did call this a long time ago. Props.
 

NDohio

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We all know this sucks. But your posts over the last two months leaves reasonable people to question why you are fan of ND. Nobody has enjoyed this year but your posts read like a pouting 12 year old.

There are different types of fans. Not everyone is a Kool-Aid drinker. Not everyone is satisfied with a 8-9 win season and a meaningless bowl win/loss

Now I know IrishBroker is PAT. He is the only one that would stand up for Koon...
 

NDohio

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Yeah, I haven't actually had a chance to read the NCAA's statement or ND's response because I'm in the field today but here are my truncated thoughts:

1. Blame the NCAA all you want, this is ND's fault. The NCAA has shown time and time again they let the worst offenders off the hook (besides USC lol) who actually commit violations for a competitive advantage... but hammer anyone who tries to "do the right thing" being strict and self-reporting honestly. In this case, ND didn't just self-report they conducted a LUDICROUS investigation and review of electronic documents the kind of which has NEVER been done in the history of collegiate academics. This probe was not only unnecessary, it was illogical.

Scenario 1: Notre Dame discovers plagiarism by some students, gives them zeros on the assignments, moves on.

Scenario 2: Notre Dame discovers plagiarism by some students, launches a massive multi-layer investigation of any and all of their correspondence and assignments including digital forensics, also reviews documents handled by all associates, suspends all players with any transgressions uncovered, and reports a potential violation because one student also happened to have a part time job on the support staff.

Scenario 1 we never hear of any of this and life moves on. Scenario 2 we lose multiple starters for the 2014 season and vacate 21 wins. Bunch of idiots in charge.

2. The NCAA is a bunch of assholes. This is no different than Kim Dunbar where all it takes is one person that wants to "make an example" and this is what you get. If the girl is just another student there is no grounds for any sort of "violation"... but simply because of an extracurricular activity she chose to participate in, they can classify commonplace cheating as a "benefit."

3. This has been in the works for awhile. When the NCAA opens an investigation, they're like OSHA. They're going to find something. Oversight bodies want to smack you as hard as possible to feel good about themselves and justify their existence. For well over a year now (really since the beginning) I'd heard we were going to have to vacate these wins. I've posted as much here more than a few times. Notre Dame administrators were incredulous that they were getting hit with sanctions for "doing everything right"... shows how utterly stupid and incompetent they are. The very day after the Frozen Five thing first broke I wrote a post for a blog stating definitively how we were handling the situation as poorly as possible and everything I said (I think, haven't actually read the statements yet) has been proven 100% correct.


So, with the way ND handled this scenario, why would any successful football coach want to come here?
 

gkIrish

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Lol

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">My career stat page at ND says I had 0 catches for 0 yards and 0 touchdowns...did they vacate all my stats too?? Oh wait never mind...</p>— Jake Golic (@JGolic88) <a href="https://twitter.com/JGolic88/status/801136646125142016">November 22, 2016</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

dad4aa

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There are different types of fans. Not everyone is a Kool-Aid drinker. Not everyone is satisfied with a 8-9 win season and a meaningless bowl win/loss

So because someone doesn't cry "fire BK" or "this team sucks" that makes them a Kool-Aid drinker? No one is satisfied with 8–9 wins in a season or going to a meaningless ball game. Some of us on here just handle it with more maturity than others and our life isn't totally wrapped around Notre Dame's football success.
 
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