MSU beating Iowa was very bad for ND

[yankeeND]

My vote would actually go to Urban Meyer, ha.

Well, even though that is subjective, just like me saying Saban is, it is a very fair argument and opinion. Meyer is exceptional at what he does.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Dantonio is Jim Tressel lite. He wins with defense, field position and turnover margin. He is a huge beneficiary of a weak UM and Big Ten overall. He was very lucky this year in that:
1 - They caught Oregon before their offense clicked
2 - Outside of catching Oregon at the right time, they basically had a two game schedule that they realistically split
3 - They have yet to face a team that can actually throw the ball with consistency and regularity.

I look back at their schedules and think the last time they played a regular season team with a reasonable passing attach was Oregon last year and ND in 2013....both losses. Oh, and who can forget Dantonio's screwy decision to pull Cook (who had played all game) in the 2013 ND game on the final drive to put in Maxwell in for a quick 4 and out to seal the game for ND.

He is a good coach, a very good coach. But, IMO, he is on the second rung of coaches, like BK.

 

[ThePiombino]

So are we, and this is something of a down-year for MSU, and and up-year for us. Talk about glass houses.

We're not where we are because of a miracle play. They are. Hardly glass houses.

 

[yankeeND]

Also, Kelly has some nice wins over some excellent coaches in his time here. Add Stoops, Miles, and Shaw with Dantonio. My point is that we are making progress with Kelly. I am just saying that I am glad we are getting a shot at Meyer and the Buckeyes, and that Kelly has found a way to get it done against some of the best out there. I don't know if we have the horses to get it done against them, but I sure love the fact that we are in this position instead of playing in another Pinstripe bowl.

 

[ThePiombino]

They also got hosed against Nebraska so it evens out. Either way they should be 12-1...

Not talking about bad calls, I'm talking about once in a lifetime bullshit luck. The Nebraska (no) call was a hose job, but it wasn't dumb luck.

 

[Teomonsternd]

I don't think you understand the word "factual" or the word "incorrect."

You first point has a hilarious amount of assumptions, and more importantly if you don't think Dantonio is in-home with Hayes and Corley saying "we're in the playoffs, we won the Big Ten. None of the other teams can say that." You're crazy. They have a clear-cut card to play over ND, OSU, and Michigan.

Your second point is quite obviously incorrect. A 2-loss MSU is not going to stay ahead of a 1-loss Ohio State that they barely beat. The reason a 1-loss Iowa stayed up where they did is because exactly that... they have 1-loss. Stanford is where they are strictly because they have the conference championship to hang their hat on.

Your third point isn't a point. So, yeah... good effort?

Not true, a 2 loss Stanford team is ahead of OSU, just as a 2 loss MSU team would have been ahead of OSU by virtue of their head to head win, ON THE ROAD. Was logic one of those life skills that you decided was optional? A 2nd loss in a conference title game that the 1 loss team didn't even make because they couldn't even win their side of the conference isn't going to trump a head to head loss on the road. I'm embarrassed for you. Also, that bland vanilla offense that you mention in point #2 isn't going to look very good against the best team in the country. When recruits wake up on January 1st and M$U got the snot beat out of them, making the playoffs isn't going to sell them to head to East Lansing.

 

[T Town Tommy]

And they missed blatant OPI. We actually had the play covered, and then they trucked the DBs covering the receivers. So not only did they fail to get the play off, but then the refs let them cheat-code their way to a TD.

Ah... but ND probably cost Spartie a shot at the NC a few years ago for some questionable PI calls. i tend to believe the calls go both ways and eventually even themselves out.

 

[IrishLax]

Not true, a 2 loss Stanford team is ahead of OSU, just as a 2 loss MSU team would have been ahead of OSU by virtue of their head to head win, ON THE ROAD. Was logic one of those life skills that you decided was optional? A 2nd loss in a conference title game that the 1 loss team didn't even make because they couldn't even win their side of the conference isn't going to trump a head to head loss on the road. I'm embarrassed for you. Also, that bland vanilla offense that you mention in point #2 isn't going to look very good against the best team in the country. When recruits wake up on January 1st and M$U got the snot beat out of them, making the playoffs isn't going to sell them to head to East Lansing.

You're not even trying. I actually specifically addressed Stanford, they're higher obviously because they're a CONFERENCE CHAMPION which is a primary part of the committee's criteria. A 2-loss MSU would not have been a champ.

In short, take your red bar and go troll somewhere else.

 

[gkIrish]

Slightly out of context, but weren't you arguing the exact opposite like a week ago in favor of Ohio State? That the Buckeyes HAD blown out opponents even though they had really just gotten their double digit lead in the 4th?

Sorry if it wasn't you, and even if it was, I'm not really trying to call you out. Just noting inconsistences. When did you become a Big Ten fan? Haha

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

That was me, which is why I said it was a blowout. I wasn't disagreeing with the OP, I was just trying to make the point that they didn't play terribly IIRC.

Well you said Dantonio was, and I disagree. Saban is the best coach in America. Don't get so defensive. Other people are allowed to have opinions too dude.

Yes, but Kelly can't coach and Dantonio is "Best Coach in America"

MSU won by 3 in Kelly's first year and hasn't won since. They lost by 18 points in '11, 17 points in '12, and 4 in '13. An average ND differential of +9. ND was their only loss in '13.

Dantonio's winning percentage against Kelly is 0.250 significantly worse than MSU's historical 0.370. Dantonio was 2-1 versus Weis.

MSU has replaced ND with the likes of Eastern Michigan, Wyoming, and Air Force.

My opinion is that D'Antonio is the best because he has had a tremendous amount of success with a significant lack of talent relative to other teams, like Bama. Someone else brought up BK being 3-1 against D'Antonio presumably to argue that BK is a better coach.

If head to head is all that matters then Brady Hoke is as good of a coach as Brian Kelly. That's why head to head isn't all that matters, especially when the relative resumes are not even close. Head to head matters a lot between Urban and Saban because they both win about 11 games a year and have multiple championships on their resume.

Not talking about bad calls, I'm talking about once in a lifetime bullshit luck. The Nebraska (no) call was a hose job, but it wasn't dumb luck.

What was lucky about blocking a punt? IMO getting hosed by the refs means you lost a game you should have won. Blocking a punt means you won a game fair and square, albeit on a miracle play.

 

[yankeeND]

We talk about lack of talent, but recruiting is a big part of coaching as well. Dantonio is starting get some more high profile kids over the last two cycles. Will be interesting to see how he does with them. It may bolster him to the level that you hold him to go. I do think he is a great coach, but I just disagree that he is the best one. He is still making his case for that though, so we'll see.

Also, I don't think that head to head is the only factor for arguing who is a better coach, but I think it is a factor to consider. Whether you think that Kelly is a great coach or not, he has accomplished some great things in his time here. Maybe he is not the guy that will get it done, but he is the guy that turned us around and got us back on track.

 

[phork]

We're not where we are because of a miracle play. They are. Hardly glass houses.

Virginia.

 

[woolybug25]

Virginia.

I wouldn't say that was a miracle. It wasn't a hail mary or crazy play by any means. Just a long TD pass to win the game.

 

[IrishLax]

Virginia.

We were already in field goal range? I still don't understand people calling that a "Hail Mary" and the like. It was just bad coverage and a good throw on a normal play.

 

[Old Man Mike]

1). Dantonio is a VERY good coach; how the heck anyone can't see that stuns me;
2). Brian Kelly is a VERY good coach; same thing; In my opinion, Kelly's better, especially because he's a systemic offense genius and few are;
3). Us getting OSU to defeat in our bowl advantages our recruiting far more than any other match-up I can imagine [assuming we're not in the playoffs which we are not]; Our head-to-heads with Urban are in my opinion far more important going forward than our head-to-heads with MSU;
4). Iowa can beat Stanford. THAT makes great recruiting for us when it happens;
5). I'll be rooting for MSU to beat Alabama --- anyone who doesn't see the vital need to bring Alabama back to the rest of the field recruiting-wise is crazy --- I'll in fact be rooting for the mighty SEC to get embarrassed in every game they play. They LOOK like a myth this year; hopefully it's true.

 

[ThePiombino]

Virginia.

Are you seriously comparing what happened in the UM/MSU final seconds to Fuller beating a DB on a deep route? Stop reaching, people.

 

[phork]

I wouldn't say that was a miracle. It wasn't a hail mary or crazy play by any means. Just a long TD pass to win the game.

We were already in field goal range? I still don't understand people calling that a "Hail Mary" and the like. It was just bad coverage and a good throw on a normal play.

Uh yah right. We were on our second string QB, on the 40 yard line. A 57 Yard FG is hard for the most seasoned FG kicker to make let a lone a freshman. And we scored with 12 seconds left... Thats as close to desperate as you can get.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

We talk about lack of talent, but recruiting is a big part of coaching as well. Dantonio is starting get some more high profile kids over the last two cycles. Will be interesting to see how he does with them. It may bolster him to the level that you hold him to go. I do think he is a great coach, but I just disagree that he is the best one. He is still making his case for that though, so we'll see.

Also, I don't think that head to head is the only factor for arguing who is a better coach, but I think it is a factor to consider. Whether you think that Kelly is a great coach or not, he has accomplished some great things in his time here. Maybe he is not the guy that will get it done, but he is the guy that turned us around and got us back on track.

This is where I've been all season.

Kelly took over an ND team that was great in name only. Thing about the roster he inherited, both defensively and offensively. There were some players no doubt but Harrison Smith was lambasted on internet boardz all over because he was position switched so often.

Kelly used Tommy Rees, a QB that could't throw farther than 40 yards down field and managed to win some big time games. Kelly's offense absolutely requires a QB that can get the ball out deep and also who can deliver accurate passes on the short and intermediate. He had a QB who could do about 1/2 of that, which severely limited what he could call on offense.

We were severely depleted at numerous positions. He just now has the roster in an active reloading state and it's going to continue to mature.

I just hope we can keep Kelly for 3 more years. That would allow the program to develop the momentum back to the top.

Step 1 right now: Beat tOSU

 

[ThePiombino]

Uh yah right. We were on our second string QB, on the 40 yard line. A 57 Yard FG is hard for the most seasoned FG kicker to make let a lone a freshman. And we scored with 12 seconds left... Thats as close to desperate as you can get.

desperation =/= miracle

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Uh yah right. We were on our second string QB, on the 40 yard line. A 57 Yard FG is hard for the most seasoned FG kicker to make let a lone a freshman. And we scored with 12 seconds left... Thats as close to desperate as you can get.

Desperate or miracle? I'd say Stanford was desperate to get the ball downfield to kick a game-winning FG but it wasn't a miracle play.

ND hitting Will Fuller on a deep route was during times of desperation but it wasn't a miracle play.

Aaron Rodgers lobbing the ball in the end zone, traveling nearly 60 yds in the air into a heap of players and his guy coming down with it...that would probably be considered a miracle play. It was truly the only chance they had.

 

[Henges24]

Must be a boring Monday for many here...

 

[gkIrish]

Must be a boring Monday for many here...

What the heck else do you want us to talk about man? I really hate posts like this.

 

[woolybug25]

Uh yah right. We were on our second string QB, on the 40 yard line. A 57 Yard FG is hard for the most seasoned FG kicker to make let a lone a freshman. And we scored with 12 seconds left... Thats as close to desperate as you can get.

So pretty much any time a team wins when they are on the ropes it's a "miracle"?

Lift your standards, homie.

 

[mtnd15]

Hopefully 'Bama completely truck-sticks them to soften the glamour of them making the playoffs a la us in 2012.

^And of course hopefully we smack them down next year in front of every midwest recruit.

One can hope.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Lax you either have way to much time on your hands. Or you are an angry worrisome person.

 

[connor_in]

Wow, surprised at the amount of MSU hate here.

I can understand the concern with recruiting as it is becoming another local power that has increased its recruiting profile and is now starting to get better classes.

You guys sound like mgoboard when talking about beating scUM. Look at the stats of that game, MSU was beating them everywhere but the scoreboard, and doing it with a decimated OLine. Meatchicken was gifted a TD on a 12 second goal line plunge in the middle of the line. And JH spread out 2 guys wide to get the punt returner when there wasn't one. state put all their guys on the line of scrimmage and blew thru scUM's OLine like a lightsaber thru melted butter. The snap wasn't great, but it wasn't the first one that was off only he bobbled this one because a wall of white was crushing in. Also, they had lived by their kicker flipping the field all day. A bit of luck, yes, to actually get it pitched to him, but if scooped and scored which is more what usually happens would that satisfy your tender sensibilities? Also, this was U of f###ing M. Would you rather be facing them on the recruiting trail with Harbaugh as the new messiah resurrecting the Wolverines behemoth...which was the narrative going into the season and was only getting more pumped up as the year went along?

MSU has had some luck, yes. most schools that make it this far usually do...see our 2012 team and tell how the ball bounced for them. The narrative then was how consistently lucky we were.

Their conference is not the best, but it isn't the worst either and their division was certainly tougher than Iowa's. Yeah they always play a directional Michigan school. That was announced years ago and has been a boon for those school's finances while giving MSU a relatively easy win, but they have also played home and home with Boise State when they were relevant and Oregon too. BTW check out their last 3 bowl games.

I think MD is a good coach and feel that him and BK are on similar developmental paths for their programs. MD just got luckier on his QB than we did and doesn't face the same academic hurdles.

PS Yes I have Spartan friends and have pulled for them to get better over the years how could you not when they had John L Smith ... kind of like our Willingham years. I respect MD because he has done it by having kids develop.and not play much until 4-5 year except in RB. Very similar to Bret.

 

[Teomonsternd]

Chicken little, Iowa didn't win a conference championship and they are ahead of OSU, same record. MSU would certainly have been ahead of OSU even if they lost; they beat them head to head ON THE ROAD. Losing an extra game in the conference championship game that the other team failed to qualify for would not have hurt MSU. All that matters is that MSU and OSU had identical records in the regular season, and MSU won the head to head matchup. If you can't see this, then you truly are the dip$hit we all know you are.

 

[IrishLax]

Uh yah right. We were on our second string QB, on the 40 yard line. A 57 Yard FG is hard for the most seasoned FG kicker to make let a lone a freshman. And we scored with 12 seconds left... Thats as close to desperate as you can get.

lol... there were 34 seconds when ND finished running the previous play, ND was on UVA's 39. ND had a timeout in hand, chose not to use it. Ran down the clock some because of Smythe, conscious decision not to use a timeout.

So just to be clear... you're calling needing ~10 yards in 30+ seconds to be in very makeable field goal range a "miracle" similar to needing a bobble-snap-blocked-punt-fumble-return-TD-as-time-expires? If that's a miracle, what would you call Stanford needing 50ish yards to get in the same field goal range against us in 30 seconds? Impossible? Divine intervention?

ND ended up snapping the ball with about 19 seconds left, UVA sold out to stop the short pass and ND executed a pass over the top (like they had done previously in the game and would continue to do all year). That's routine football, not MIRACLE IN CHARLOTTESVILLE!!!

 

[connor_in]

Are you seriously comparing what happened in the UM/MSU final seconds to Fuller beating a DB on a deep route? Stop reaching, people.

It doesn't matter what we ND or IE fans think, the majority of the CFB world seems to think it, thus it becomes the narrative. In fact, if you ask around, I would bet that most people think we were as lucky as most people think State is.

 

[ThePiombino]

It doesn't matter what we ND or IE fans think, the majority of the CFB world seems to think it, thus it becomes the narrative. In fact, if you ask around, I would bet that most people think we were as lucky as most people think State is.

I personally have not heard to anyone refer to it as a miracle. I have heard the word "survive", but not "miracle". Your point is valid nonetheless.

 

[woolybug25]

It doesn't matter what we ND or IE fans think, the majority of the CFB world seems to think it, thus it becomes the narrative. In fact, if you ask around, I would bet that most people think we were as lucky as most people think State is.

Where is this coming from? I have a bunch of friends that are Michigan fans and I can't think of any of them calling us lucky this season. From my seat, I don't see this narrative around anywhere.

If you said that there is a narrative that we don't put teams away, sure. That is certainly out there (and true), but I dont hear or see on TV anybody trying to push the "ND is just lucky" narrative.