Law School Advice.

Jason Pham

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. . . Add in my savings and my parents generously helping me out, and I'm probably going to graduate with around $600 in student loans. Not thousands, hundreds. . . .

This is an enviable position to be in; if you like the jobs available to you coming out of a strong regional school, going for little cost means a kind of professional and financial flexibility that is harder to come by if you are looking at significant post-law school debt, even for graduates of top ten school.

Glad to hear that things seem to be going well at UGA for you, greyhammer.
 
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Emcee77

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Yeah, great advice by Pham. That's the calculus you want to engage in. How much debt will I have to take out in hopes of getting what kind of job that will entail what kind of lifestyle, and how much am I willing to risk to get that job.

I tend to agree with greyhammer that if you need to take out a lot of debt, don't go. If you take out a lot of debt, then you will likely have to work at some kind of large or mid-size firm or elite boutique firm to pay it off, and a lot of people are not prepared for that lifestyle, even if they think they are. I've seen a LOT of people burn out in just a couple years of BigLaw life. One of my law school classmates got a job out of law school at Kirkland & Ellis, a huge, elite Chicago law firm, and left after only about 9 months. Working till 3 a.m. every night, sleeping in the office ... law firms can be like white collar sweat shops. I have another friend who went to Yale Law and, after just a couple years practicing law at two large firms in D.C., is going back to school to be a midwife, despite her debt load, because the lawyering life just wasn't for her.

The thing to highlight is this: these people thought they wanted to work at big firms. They are smart people who are good at writing and analysis and are no strangers to hard work, so it seemed like a no-brainer ... why not use those skills to make some real cash. But now these people are kind of up you know what creek because they are forced to choose between their own happiness and mental health and their financial security (well, not really, as a matter of fact ... my friends both have spouses who make plenty of money so it's not like they are starving, but other people in their position aren't so lucky). I always tell people that I wouldn't take a financial gamble on law school unless you are really, really sure you want to be a lawyer, maybe because one of your parents was a lawyer or you worked in a law firm of you have some really clear career goal. If not, it's just not a safe bet.

I'm not totally sure I agree with greyhammer on dropping out after the first semester if you are in the bottom half of the class. Again, it depends on your career goals ... if you want to be a big-firm lawyer and you are incurring a lot of debt, then yes, maybe you drop out. But Joe Biden was 76th in his class of 85 people at Syracuse Law, and he is a heartbeat away from being president of the United States. It depends on what you want and how much you want to gamble on getting it.
 
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Irish Houstonian

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This is implied by Pham's post but if you want to go to one of those Florida schools, you are pretty much limiting yourself to working in Florida. If that's not your goal (it seems that it is), then you need to consider where you do want to work/live and apply to other law schools accordingly.

Minor tip: don't send out a bazillion applications. I made the mistake of applying to over 20 law schools and spending nearly $1,000 on applications hoping to get into a reach. It's very easy to predict what schools you will get into based solely on your LSAT and G.P.A. so applying to reaches is kind of pointless unless you are a minority.

Welcome to LawSchoolNumbers.com | Law School Numbers

Well, not to brag, but I went to The U and had offers all over the place. You do well enough and people will come, Ray.
 

greyhammer90

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Well, not to brag, but I went to The U and had offers all over the place. You do well enough and people will come, Ray.

Well that can always happen. But statistically it's good to assume that you'll end up in the middle of your class when deciding law schools. Too many people assume they'll blow it out of the water with ease like they did in college.
 

gkIrish

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Well, not to brag, but I went to The U and had offers all over the place. You do well enough and people will come, Ray.

When did you graduate? Regardless, you are the exception to the rule. I'm sure you were at the top of your class.
 

NOLAIrish

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I'm typically highly risk-averse in my advice to law school applicants, so adjust the following according to your own risk tolerance and circumstances.

Law school makes sense only for a few groups of applicants. Whether an applicant should attend law school depends on balancing the following factors: (1) the employment numbers for the school in question, (2) the cost of attendance, (3) their career objectives, and (4) their tolerance for risk.

Generally, law school makes sense if the job that would be available to you as a median-ranked student is sufficient to service your loan burden.

jpham said it better than I could. If you want to go, pick somewhere that has low costs unless you cant get into a top 10 law school.

I go to UGA, which is considered by most to be a top ten value school. I would recommend at least applying there. They offered me in-state tuition for my first year and I applied for in-state status and (thankfully) received it. Add in my savings and my parents generously helping me out, and I'm probably going to graduate with around $600 in student loans. Not thousands, hundreds.

Unfortunately, if your situation is not like mine, I wouldn't recommend going to law school. Unless you fall within a very small range, it's not a good investment.

If you choose to disregard my advice, and decide to try your luck at an expensive school in the top 50's (if you can't get into one of those, again, it might be a good idea to think about what else you could do), for God's sake work HARD the first semester. If you get your grades back after the first semester and you're not above the middle of your class, drop out immediately. There is no money in being stubborn and the first semester WILL dictate your job offers for 1L summer. A successful 1st semester of law school = a successful law school career.

You two both sound like law students here. You should go to law school if you love the law. That's a big, broad question, and it's nebulous and difficult to answer before you get into law school. It's also the only thing that I've seen separating happy JDs from unhappy JDs in post-law-school life. It's not debt load or placement in a white shoe firm. I don't know a ton of people who loved their BigLaw placement, actually. Most lasted just long enough to pay off their debts and then got out. One thing you need to consider is whether you'll be happy with a law-related, non-lawyer job. I'd say a substantial minority of my cohort wound up there. I actually wasn't bothered by firm life, as a lot of folks are. Still, life took me in another direction, and I got an offer I couldn't turn down. About 10% of my working life is spent practicing law. The rest is law-related, non-lawyer work, and it's the most enjoyable work I've ever done.

I wouldn't throw out Miami or Stetson based simply on tuition. Unless the law school scheme has changed dramatically since I was there, over the next 2-3 months, the private schools that've accepted you will start to offer generous scholarships. My tuition at NDLS nearly a decade ago was the same as a half-ride at UGA today. I don't understand that to be a unique situation. Plus, as you get closer and closer to the final deadline to accept your offer, you can start to leverage your offers against one another. Notre Dame upped their offer by about 50% toward the end of the process. Another school moved me from half to full. I'm not sure if that was a result of me waiting to sign or me calling them up and talking to them about other enticing offers (be respectful and be grateful; just play "conflicted undergrad").

Also, if you're dead set on a region, there are almost always some well-regarded local law schools in the third tier that will give a full-ride to anyone who could get in to UGA and UF. Half of the lawyers I work with are Loyola New Orleans grads. On the low end, I can predict fairly accurately whether a lawyer has a Loyola or Tulane degree. Among the high quality lawyers, though, it's a coin flip.

Irish8248: 10 years in public service and the last 20 years of debt payments are forgiven

Just for federal (not private) lenders, right?

It covers Perkins Loans and FFELs. It's a maximum of the last 15 years of debt payments, and in my experience, the benefit is mostly illusory.

You can't simply do a straight extended or extended graduated repayment plan (those are the guaranteed 25-year plans). Payments on either don't qualify. Instead, you can do income-based repayment, pay-as-you-earn or income-contingent repayment. All of those plans shorten as you make more money.

Let's say you graduate with $90,000 in eligible debt (a law school graduate would max out at $146,500 if he took out federal loans for undergrad and law school). If you're single and making a flat $65,000 a year, you're talking about approximately 40% of your loan will be forgiven. For most people, that turns out to be worth in the neighborhood of $7,500 a year. Remember, though, that a lot of that represents interest that wouldn't exist if you hadn't extended. If you bump up to $85,000 a year, you're down to less than a third. If you get married and she works and doesn't have large loans, you're going to have to look hard at filing separately. Otherwise, it's extremely likely you'll be paying off faster under the alternate plans than under the 10-year.

The PSLF is great for people paying off their federal college loans while working at the lower-levels of public service (for instance, at $36,000, half of your $90,000 eligible debt would be forgiven). For someone with a law degree, making an appropriate salary, it's a nice perk, but it'll never put you on equal footing with what you'd make in industry. Besides, the real incentive to stay 10 years is to vest so you can start pulling down that lovely state retirement...
 

Jason Pham

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Well, not to brag, but I went to The U and had offers all over the place. You do well enough and people will come, Ray.

There's no doubt that those who do well at many schools will do well when it comes to the job search, but of the more than 40% of graduates from the University of Miami not working in JD-required, full-time, long-term gigs, how many of those do you think showed up on their first day of 1L thinking that they would do just a little less than well enough? Also, doing well at one school can mean something starkly different from doing well at another and prospective law students should take into account the risk of falling outside the group of students who "do well" and the consequences that follow.

There are definitely highly successful students coming out of many schools thought to be more regional in reach and reputation, but I wouldn't advise others to bet their money or time on a place where they would need to be ranked in the top quarter of their class to find a return.
 

Emcee77

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Law School Advice.

Well, not to brag, but I went to The U and had offers all over the place. You do well enough and people will come, Ray.



Well that can always happen. But statistically it's good to assume that you'll end up in the middle of your class when deciding law schools. Too many people assume they'll blow it out of the water with ease like they did in college.



Yeah, I totally agree with greyhammer, and I'm also curious, when did you graduate, Houstonian, if you don't mind my asking? The legal job market has changed dramatically in the last few years. I graduated a couple years ago from Loyola University Chicago, which is ranked comparably to the U last time I checked, and let's just say opportunities outside of the Chicago area were tougher to come by for most of my classmates than they appeared to be for the Loyola alums and upperclass students I talked to when I started. Not that I'm bitter about it or anything ... my wife has a great job in Chicago and I was always going to be staying in Chicago anyway. I wouldn't have gone to Loyola otherwise.
 
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Jason Pham

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You two both sound like law students here. You should go to law school if you love the law. That's a big, broad question, and it's nebulous and difficult to answer before you get into law school. It's also the only thing that I've seen separating happy JDs from unhappy JDs in post-law-school life. It's not debt load or placement in a white shoe firm. I don't know a ton of people who loved their BigLaw placement, actually. Most lasted just long enough to pay off their debts and then got out. One thing you need to consider is whether you'll be happy with a law-related, non-lawyer job. I'd say a substantial minority of my cohort wound up there. I actually wasn't bothered by firm life, as a lot of folks are. Still, life took me in another direction, and I got an offer I couldn't turn down. About 10% of my working life is spent practicing law. The rest is law-related, non-lawyer work, and it's the most enjoyable work I've ever done.

I wouldn't throw out Miami or Stetson based simply on tuition. Unless the law school scheme has changed dramatically since I was there, over the next 2-3 months, the private schools that've accepted you will start to offer generous scholarships. My tuition at NDLS nearly a decade ago was the same as a half-ride at UGA today. I don't understand that to be a unique situation. Plus, as you get closer and closer to the final deadline to accept your offer, you can start to leverage your offers against one another. Notre Dame upped their offer by about 50% toward the end of the process. Another school moved me from half to full. I'm not sure if that was a result of me waiting to sign or me calling them up and talking to them about other enticing offers (be respectful and be grateful; just play "conflicted undergrad").

I assume those who go to law school are at least interested in the law, though I recognize that this broad assumption has its exceptions. That said, I have a handful of friends at Penn with plenty of "love for the law" but who are saddled with big law sorta debt and who have missed the big law boat. Maybe they will land on their feet soon enough, but I don't know that any amount of love for the law is going to relieve the stress of having to service six figures worth of debt without a job that can service it. Tuition is increasing at almost all law schools, employment numbers aren't nearly what they were ten years ago, so I think the environment calls for a closer look at the costs and outcomes of attending law school.
 

NOLAIrish

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I assume those who go to law school are at least interested in the law, though I recognize that this broad assumption has its exceptions. That said, I have a handful of friends at Penn with plenty of "love for the law" but who are saddled with big law sorta debt and who have missed the big law boat. Maybe they will land on their feet soon enough, but I don't know that any amount of love for the law is going to relieve the stress of having to service six figures worth of debt without a job that can service it. Tuition is increasing at almost all law schools, employment numbers aren't nearly what they were ten years ago, so I think the environment calls for a closer look at the costs and outcomes of attending law school.

That's an argument for selecting among law schools (i.e. choosing a lesser school that minimizes debt over a superior school at full tuition), but I interpreted the bolded portions in my original response as an analysis of whether a student should go to law school at all.

Obviously, if you're so borderline that you can't get substantial assistance at a regional school, you do need to decide whether you've got the aptitude to be successful enough to pay off a law school debt. I'm making the further assumption we're not talking about that type of applicant.
 

Wild Bill

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Amend the bankruptcy code to allow discharge of student loans and let the games begin.
 

mick2

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I am now thoroughly frightened! lol. Good advice from everyone. Pham you've really made me think about the debt to job ratio.

Just got my status changed from "under review" to "Decision Rendered, Letter Mailed" from one of my top choices, any experience with that? is it good or bad or neither?
 

Rack Em

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I am now thoroughly frightened! lol. Good advice from everyone. Pham you've really made me think about the debt to job ratio.

Just got my status changed from "under review" to "Decision Rendered, Letter Mailed" from one of my top choices, any experience with that? is it good or bad or neither?

You'll know when the letter arrives ;)
 

Jason Pham

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I am now thoroughly frightened! lol. Good advice from everyone. Pham you've really made me think about the debt to job ratio.

Just got my status changed from "under review" to "Decision Rendered, Letter Mailed" from one of my top choices, any experience with that? is it good or bad or neither?

Studying law and working in the legal profession can be an immensely rewarding pursuit and I've known lawyers who were able to take the education and the training they received during law school and throughout their careers and leverage it toward work that has been deeply meaningful, challenging, and gainful. That said, the struggle can be too real and the desire to study and practice the law should be weighed against the costs and outcomes. If you've thought all that through and have assessed the employment figures and the cost of attendance against your own tolerance for risk, you can at the very least say that you're making a fully informed decision.

The status change can mean a lot of things depending on the school. There are some schools that will call you or email you to let you know you've been admitted before changing the status; there are other schools that just send out acceptances in the mail with no prior communication as to their decision. If you're really (and understandably) worried about it, I would check out the applicant's thread for the school on top-law-schools.com to see if anyone has talked about their decision timeline (I would also advise not reading much else on the forum because the place is a little bit elitist and often depressing). But if the decision has been rendered, it's been rendered and you ought to rest knowing that there's nothing left for you to do here. Good luck! And keep us in the loop.
 

mick2

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Yeah I've peeked at the top law schools forums, but I don't read much into them, only crazy people post on forums asking for advice about law school....wait a minute. lol

Pham, here's my thought process, I've always wanted an advanced degree, I weighed options of getting my masters or going into law school. I feel that a degree in law would carry more weight and open more doors for me professionally than any other graduate degree, that's why I am pursuing that route. My sister is a big inspiration for me as well, she graduated with her JD in 2009.

And I hope that I can do what some of your law colleagues have done, and utilize my law degree to get a position where the work is fulfilling and rewarding, making a little dough would be nice too.

I'll admit part of the reason I am going to law school is to be validated, but its not my only motivation. But I would say that I have taken a more emotional process to get to my decision, and your advice has helped me take a harder look at the practical side of things.

I'll keep you all posted! thank you all for the input,keep it coming!
 

Jason Pham

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It sounds like you have a bit of soul searching to do before you commit to the idea of law school. The good news is that it sounds like you are definitely thinking about some of the right questions and you have at least one JD in the family so that the concept isn't entirely theoretical to you.

That said, I think you may be approaching the decision from the wrong angle. You're thinking of going to law school and receiving a law degree as if these were primary goals and leaving what comes after law school as secondary goals that depend on your primary goals.

That the law degree is a flexible degree is a misconception that stems from the fact that lawyers can end up doing diverse work in diverse fields. While that may be true, the lawyers that I know who have moved on from practicing the law went to law school not because of the jobs that were available to them after practicing law, but because they wanted to practice the law.

The threshold question in all of this is whether you want to be a lawyer. Have you wrestled with what it means to practice the law? What jobs in the legal field interest you most? And are those positions realistically attainable coming out of the law schools you're considering? If you want to be a lawyer, if you know what that means, and if you're comfortable with the employment opportunities offered by the schools you're considering, then I think you're generally good to go. But I would hate for you to have the wrong ideas about what a law degree means for your career, what being a lawyer looks like, and then being locked into a lifestyle you don't enjoy because of the loans you've taken on.
 
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greyhammer90

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Bascially what they just said. DO NOT go to law school because you want to delay looking for a job, do other business that you think a law degree would be helpful in, or make "contacts". It's not worth the time or money.
 

mick2

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Here is what I know. Many people who hold positions that I want to someday hold have law degrees, some of those people are lawyers currently, some lawyered for a while and later utilized their degree for another position and some utilized their jd for non legal positions right out of school.

I also know this is what I want to pursue, and I am familiar with the realities of life after Law school with my sister being in that boat currently. I haven't taken a hard look at the type of Law I would like to specialize in, and haven't considered all employment options for me coming out of Law school. But that doesn't mean I haven't put any thought into it.

I've got a dream, and a plan to achieve it, and I feel that a law degree is a key piece of my plan.
 

Jason Pham

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Here is what I know. Many people who hold positions that I want to someday hold have law degrees, some of those people are lawyers currently, some lawyered for a while and later utilized their degree for another position and some utilized their jd for non legal positions right out of school.

I also know this is what I want to pursue, and I am familiar with the realities of life after Law school with my sister being in that boat currently. I haven't taken a hard look at the type of Law I would like to specialize in, and haven't considered all employment options for me coming out of Law school. But that doesn't mean I haven't put any thought into it.

I've got a dream, and a plan to achieve it, and I feel that a law degree is a key piece of my plan.

You definitely don't have to know what kind of law you want to specialize in (although it'd be good to have a general idea of the broad categories available and how each does or does not suit you); I didn't really figure it out until halfway through interview season and I have a feeling it'll be something that continues to develop over time. However, the bolded above is absolutely the most pressing issue to resolve. I don't think any of us are implying that you haven't put any thought into it, but what comes later in your career as a JD-holder should come as a secondary thought to what you'd like your life and career path to look like immediately after law school.

If after you've thoroughly researched the job opportunities available to new grads of the law schools you're considering and you're comfortable with the odds, the costs, and the risks, there's no saying that you haven't made a fully informed decision.
 

ryno 24

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Not directly advice, but I got my first legal internship. I am interning with the City of Cincinnati prosecutor's office. I want to work in criminal law, so this is a great first step.
 

mick2

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You definitely don't have to know what kind of law you want to specialize in (although it'd be good to have a general idea of the broad categories available and how each does or does not suit you); I didn't really figure it out until halfway through interview season and I have a feeling it'll be something that continues to develop over time. However, the bolded above is absolutely the most pressing issue to resolve. I don't think any of us are implying that you haven't put any thought into it, but what comes later in your career as a JD-holder should come as a secondary thought to what you'd like your life and career path to look like immediately after law school.

If after you've thoroughly researched the job opportunities available to new grads of the law schools you're considering and you're comfortable with the odds, the costs, and the risks, there's no saying that you haven't made a fully informed decision.

No I wasn't accusing any of you of that, I didn't mean for it to come across that way.

I am currently looking at those opportunities now, went to an open house to one of my target schools last month and they boast a pretty impressive percentage of students that found full time legal related jobs after graduation, I know its open house and they have to put their best foot forward, but I feel pretty strongly about that school, crossing fingers that they accept me, because it would be a much more affordable option than the private school that has accepted me.

I am actually pondering waiting and re applyibg if the private schools are the only options available to me. Just too much in cost of attendance to be worth it right now, although I am still researching. I feel the only private school worth attending down this way would be UM. They have a nationally ranked program and the miami dade geographic would offer a great opportunity for internships.
 

mick2

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Not directly advice, but I got my first legal internship. I am interning with the City of Cincinnati prosecutor's office. I want to work in criminal law, so this is a great first step.

congrats brother!
 

Jason Pham

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No I wasn't accusing any of you of that, I didn't mean for it to come across that way.

I am currently looking at those opportunities now, went to an open house to one of my target schools last month and they boast a pretty impressive percentage of students that found full time legal related jobs after graduation, I know its open house and they have to put their best foot forward, but I feel pretty strongly about that school, crossing fingers that they accept me, because it would be a much more affordable option than the private school that has accepted me.

I am actually pondering waiting and re applyibg if the private schools are the only options available to me. Just too much in cost of attendance to be worth it right now, although I am still researching. I feel the only private school worth attending down this way would be UM. They have a nationally ranked program and the miami dade geographic would offer a great opportunity for internships.

A good way to cut through some of the marketing is to check out what percentage of the JD-required/preferred, full-time, and even long-term jobs are school funded. As the applicant markets demands more and more transparency in employment figures, schools have obliged by modifying their school-funded jobs scheme in order to increase their employment numbers. For example, it used to be that statistics only really showed percentage employed upon graduation and then percentage employed at nine months after graduation. So some schools (even some among those at near the top of the rankings) would hire their own grads to work in the admissions or career services offices for nine and half months and then be able to report those students as having a JD-required/related gig. Once full-time and long-term became measures, schools would offer the same gigs for a year or just over a year in order to qualify those students within those numbers. So, one thing you can do to drill down to numbers that better reflect reality is to account for these kinds of jobs.

Retaking is generally always a good idea not just to try to get into better schools but to increase the scholarship money made available to you. UM, for example, can be a solid option but its high costs and the slim opportunity of landing the kind of job you would need to pay off those costs make it a big risk. If, however, you can get them to offer you a substantial scholarship, you may be headed in the right direction. If you do plan to retake, there's also another invaluable thing you could do both for your own career discernment but also for what I believe to a major boost come interview season: take a job in the legal field working with lawyers. Not only will you learn for yourself what some of the ins and outs of the industry are, you'll also be able to speak knowledgeably and convincingly in interviews about why you want to be a lawyer and how you fit into the legal field. It's definitely not a requirement, but my peers who had experience in the legal field prior to law school did well during law school and did very well when it came to the job search. Would be a great option if you could swing it.
 

greyhammer90

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It is with great pride that I announce that I took my final law school exam today. Thanks to everyone on the board who gave me advice, wished me luck, or gave me anything positive at all. I probably couldn't have made it through 1L without the conversations.

Thanks buds.

Greyhammer90 J.D.
 

Kaneyoufeelit

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It is with great pride that I announce that I took my final law school exam today. Thanks to everyone on the board who gave me advice, wished me luck, or gave me anything positive at all. I probably couldn't have made it through 1L without the conversations.

Thanks buds.

Greyhammer90 J.D.

Congrats, my man. The relief of finishing that miserable three years is amazing. I hope you get a few weeks to relax and enjoy yourself before you start bar review. Be sure to let us know once you're greyhammer, esq

Well done!
 

Junkhead

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It is with great pride that I announce that I took my final law school exam today. Thanks to everyone on the board who gave me advice, wished me luck, or gave me anything positive at all. I probably couldn't have made it through 1L without the conversations.

Thanks buds.

Greyhammer90 J.D.

Congrats. I had visions of law school after getting my semi-worthless BS in Criminal Justice. I decided I just didn't have the necessary desire to do it. Good job sticking with it.
 

Irish#1

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Graduated from Georgia Law. It was a top 30 that I got to go to for ridiculously cheap. (I will be graduating with zero debt!) I hope to be working in trust and estates at my job.

I'd rep ya, but I've got to spread the love some more. Great job!
 

Emcee77

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That's why I'm thanking the board. I was PMed repeatedly to do whatever I could to avoid it. Soooo happy I chose Georgia in the end. Got some great friends and got to live in Athens for 3 years.

Yeah, sounds like it was really the right move. Big congrats! I know that's a great feeling.
 
B

Bogtrotter07

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Congratulations!

"Maybe poker's just not your game, Ike. I know: let's have a spelling contest."

I think you will be an absolute huckleberry at the law!
 
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